A Rakoczi King for Britain

[Mipp]

In April 1651, Henriette Marie of the Palatinate, daughter of Frederick V "The Winter King" and his wife Elizabeth Stuart, married Rákóczi Zsigmond, brother of Prince György II of Transylvania. In OTL, both bride and groom would die a few months later, childless.

Point of departure: Zsigmond dies on schedule in February 1652, but his wife Henriette Marie survives him. A few months later she dies giving birth to a son, *Frigyes Zsigmond (Frederick Sigismund). The boy would be raised by his grandmother, Lorántffy Zsuzsanna, as a strict Calvinist. In 1660, both Zsuzsanna and his uncle György II died -- Zsuzsanna of a stroke in April and György dying of wounds sustained in battle against the Turks in June. Shortly thereafter, the Ottomans besieged and captured the border fortress of Nagyvárad.

Frigyes Zsigmond, having no prospects in Transylvania, was sent to his grandmother, Elizabeth Stuart, then-resident in England. This grandmother would shortly die as well, in February 1662, leaving Frederick (as he is now called) in the custody of his cousin, Charles II.

Unquestionably Protestant, unquestionably legitimate, an English speaker and resident at the English court from the age of nine, and with a genealogical claim to the throne superior to that of his Hannoverian cousins, Frederick will be 62 when his cousin Queen Anne dies, leaving him as the heir to the throne. It will be quite obvious after the death of the duke of Gloucester in 1700 that Frederick will seemingly inevitably become the next king.

All hail King Frederick I Rakoczi.

 

[Zorqal]

Thats pretty cool. Im not to sure on the history around that time, but that is an interesting idea. Would the english accept a transylvanian lke him to have the throne tough. Granted, they accepted German, but that would be different.

 

[Mipp]

I think Frederick being raised most of his life in Britain would probably help ease him onto the throne. At least he will fluently speak English. He's also a nephew of gallant Prince Rupert and likely will serve a stint in the military as well. It won't be obvious until he's well into adulthood just how close he is to the throne, of course.

By 62 he will likely be long married with children, but I doubt we can find a continental princess willing to marry a relative nobody like Frederick Rakoczi. Most likely he marries a British girl of good family (or hell, who knows, maybe one of the bastard daughters of his cousin Charles II). I could see him "marrying back" into the Stuart clan.

 

[Zorqal]

Also how would his family handle things like the colonies, colonization, and if it happens the American Revolution? I think this would make for an interesting timeline, because a different style of ruler could impact the empire in such a way that America may be born as a Kingdom Dominion united with Canada.

 

[Mipp]

Lots of butterflies, for sure. For one thing, the kings of Britain will not also rule Hannover. We've probably butterflied away the hemophilia that OTL ran rampant amongst Victoria's descendants. The Rakoczis also have the potential to inject some flesh genetic material into the highest strata of European royalty.

Also, *Frederick I will have a cousin and near-contemporary, Rákóczi Ferenc, who's going to lead the Hungarian uprising against the Habsburgs in 1703-1711. It's interesting to speculate how Frederick may respond, if he responds at all, to this. Ferenc actually sought refuge in England in 1712, but was turned away by Queen Anne.

 

[Elfwine]

Also how would his family handle things like the colonies, colonization, and if it happens the American Revolution? I think this would make for an interesting timeline, because a different style of ruler could impact the empire in such a way that America may be born as a Kingdom Dominion united with Canada.

Why would his family handle it any differently than the OTL rulers?

Butterflies aside, what is there that would make a difference to the Navigation Acts, for example?

There's potential, but I think it needs to explore why Frederick I and descendants do differently rather than just decide that they would.

 

[Zorqal]

Why would his family handle it any differently than the OTL rulers?

Butterflies aside, what is there that would make a difference to the Navigation Acts, for example?

There's potential, but I think it needs to explore why Frederick I and descendants do differently rather than just decide that they would.

Different people handle different things in different ways. The revolution my not even come about because the colonies might be content under Rakoczis rule.

 

[Elfwine]

Different people handle different things in different ways. The revolution my not even come about because the colonies might be content under Rakoczis rule.

Why would they handle it differently?

"Different people are different" isn't a reason for the British government (I'm using that term because PArliament's influence in this timeline is unclear) to completely change OTL policies that were based on something far broader than the personal attitudes of butterflied or replaced individuals.

It wasn't the House of Hanover that inspired the American Revolution - at least not in the eyes of the rebels.

 

[Simreeve]

I think Frederick being raised most of his life in Britain would probably help ease him onto the throne. At least he will fluently speak English. He's also a nephew of gallant Prince Rupert and likely will serve a stint in the military as well. It won't be obvious until he's well into adulthood just how close he is to the throne, of course.

By 62 he will likely be long married with children,

We had a discussion a few weeks ago about why Rupert didn't marry and produce heirs: The same factors (needing to marry a woman of 'high noble' status by German standards for dynastic reasons, vs not being able to promise a guaranteed position & income for their descendants) might apply to this Frederick too.

 

[Velasco]

But wasn't Rupert a duke etc? Surely he'd be able to provide for a consort and descendants as well as any junior son of a German princely house, many of whom did marry appropriately and produce big broods.

 

[Simreeve]

But wasn't Rupert a duke etc? Surely he'd be able to provide for a consort and descendants as well as any junior son of a German princely house, many of whom did marry appropriately and produce big broods.

No. He had been granted the title of 'duke' but not the sort of estates needed to support that dignity properly; His main source of income was a 'pension' from the Crown... and he couldn't count on his potential heirs having enough royal favour for that pension to continue being paid to them indefinitely.

 

[Rich Rostrom]

We've probably butterflied away the hemophilia that OTL ran rampant amongst Victoria's descendants.

1) Victoria is 150 years down the road. The entire House of Hanover, including her father, grandfather, great-grandfather, and great-great-grandfather, are gone.

2) Hemophilia is inherited in the female line, except in the very unlikely circumstance of a male hemophiliiac living to adulthood and begetting a carrier daughter. Victoria inherited it from her mother. (Or, more likely, it was a mutation in her mother's egg. Her older half-brother and the descendants of her older half-sister were all free of it. The mutation is known to happen every now and then.)

 

[Rich Rostrom]

We had a discussion a few weeks ago about why Rupert didn't marry and produce heirs: The same factors (needing to marry a woman of 'high noble' status by German standards for dynastic reasons, vs not being able to promise a guaranteed position & income for their descendants) might apply to this Frederick too.

Assuming no butterfles:

In 1700, Anne's son dies. At this point both William III and Anne are clearly not going to produce heirs, and Frederick is only 48. His succession becomes almost certain - call him "second heir presumptive". So there would be pressure for him to marry and beget ASAP.

That's if he never got a proper estate and was able to marry earlier.

Frederick is more Hungarian than German, unlike Rupert, so he may not be bound by the same marriage restrictions.

 

[Emperor Constantine]

Assuming no butterfles:

In 1700, Anne's son dies. At this point both William III and Anne are clearly not going to produce heirs, and Frederick is only 48. His succession becomes almost certain - call him "second heir presumptive". So there would be pressure for him to marry and beget ASAP.

That's if he never got a proper estate and was able to marry earlier.

Frederick is more Hungarian than German, unlike Rupert, so he may not be bound by the same marriage restrictions.

Either way if he's the heir presumptive, he'll be a much more attractive marriage prospect.

 

[JedidiahStott]

Thats pretty cool. Im not to sure on the history around that time, but that is an interesting idea. Would the english accept a transylvanian lke him to have the throne tough. Granted, they accepted German, but that would be different.

Well, he would have been raised , in England, since he was about 11 years old by that wily old fox Chas. II. So I doubt anyone would really think of him as Transylvanian.

Marriage would be a problem. Younger son, no great prospects (until 1700 he would be quite a way down the succession list). Someone suggested one of Chas II's bastard daughters - possible, but the problem was that Charles wanted them all to marry rich men, so he didn't have to support them!

Assuming he did marry someone (and didn't get himself killed somehow) , and produce lawful Protestant issue, he would certainly replace the Line of Sophia in the Act of Settlement. So, his heirs would become Kings of England.

It's really the same scenario as Rupert marrying and having heirs.

The Act of Settlement is often misunderstood. It did not change the line of succession, and most certainly did not "elect a new King". What it did do, was to impose a new qualification of the succession rules : the heir must be Protestant. Given that , OTL, Sophia was the next lawful heir. Everyone ahead of her in the line was excluded as being Catholic, or married to a Catholic. I doubt that an attempt to bypass her would have succeeded , and, likewise, ITTL, Frederick would be very difficult to bypass.

EDIT: As regards marriage restrictions. Was not the Transylvanian throne at that time elective ? In which case the necessity for a marriage partner to be HofAdel is not really relevant; so he should have greater freedom of choice than Rupert would have.

EDITY EDIT: Left field possibility for a wife : The Princess Anne. OTL, she was originally suggested as a wife for George of Hanover, but it never came off. Prince George of Denmark was chosen as being Protestant, respectable, acceptable to Englishmen, and also acceptable to Louis of France. Fred. Sig. would be all of those things also (Louis might well think a Transylvanian prince a useful foil against the Emperor).

Granted, he's maybe a bit old for her - but I think Anne quite liked father figures.

 

[katchen]

Just avoiding the madness of King George will be a big help to Great Britain. Interestingly, the Comte de St. Germain was also a Rakoci, or so he claimed:
See Wikipedia:
"Count Saint-Germain" redirects here. For other uses of St. Germain see Saint-Germain (disambiguation). Also see St. Germain (Theosophy)
An engraving of the Count of St. Germain by Nicolas Thomas made in 1783, after a painting then owned by the Marquise d'Urfe and now apparently lost.[1] Contained at the Louvre in France[2]


The Comte de Saint Germain (born 1712?;[3] died 27 February 1784)[4] was a European courtier, with an interest in science and the arts. He achieved prominence in European high society of the mid-1700s. In order to deflect inquiries as to his origins, he would invent fantasies, such as that he was 500 years old, leading Voltaire to ironically dub him "The Wonderman".[5]
His birth and background are obscure, but towards the end of his life he claimed that he was a son of Prince Francis II Rákóczi of Transylvania. His name has occasionally caused him to be confused with Claude Louis, Comte de Saint-Germain, a noted French general, and Robert-François Quesnay de Saint Germain, an active occultist.[6The Count claimed to be a son of Francis II Rákóczi, the Prince of Transylvania, possibly legitimate, possibly by Duchess Violante Beatrice of Bavaria]
It would be interesting if he showed up at the Court of King Frederick or his descendants.

 

[Simreeve]

2) Hemophilia is inherited in the female line, except in the very unlikely circumstance of a male hemophiliiac living to adulthood and begetting a carrier daughter. Victoria inherited it from her mother. (Or, more likely, it was a mutation in her mother's egg. Her older half-brother and the descendants of her older half-sister were all free of it. The mutation is known to happen every now and then.)

Could have been an X-chromosme mutation in her father's sperm, too... and considering his age when he fathered her, mutations in his sperm wouldn't exactly be unlikely.

Frederick is more Hungarian than German, unlike Rupert, so he may not be bound by the same marriage restrictions.

Fair enough. Rupert could have married an "ordinary" British noblewoman quite legally under British law, but if he had done so then their descendants would have been ineligible to inherit the Palatinate... and for most if not all of the relevant period Rupert was actually closer to inheriting that domain than he was to inheriting the British throne, so had to take its legal requirements into consideration.

 

[jkarr]

Would they Anglify the Rakozci name if he did get the throne?

 

[katchen]

You can't just call him Racozy and leave it at that. He would have to take the name of some English castle like Windsor or Hatfield the way the Saxe-Coburg Gothas did.

 

[Simreeve]

You can't just call him Racozy and leave it at that. He would have to take the name of some English castle like Windsor or Hatfield the way the Saxe-Coburg Gothas did.

No, 'Racozy' probably is fine unless & until we get into a major war with either Transylvania or Hungary: IOTL 'Windsor' was specifically a WW1-inspired change.