Thank you! That's such a lovely thing to hear ❤
The Mary/Nora dynamic has been one of my favourites to play with throughout, so I'm glad you like them
A Queen Twice Over: Mary Tudor the Elder Marries Francis I of France
- Thread starter FalconHonour
- Start date
The Mary/Nora dynamic has been one of my favourites to play with throughout, so I'm glad you like them
I will continue to say who would have been much better for everyone if Marie had died in her last childbirth as she is the biggest responsible of all that mess…
Jean, sadly, has all the reasons for hating her after the humiliation she inflicted to him and that had ruined also the relationship with his brother…
Isabelle, also, do not deserve all the hate she received for something who is truly more fault of Marie than hers
Jean, sadly, has all the reasons for hating her after the humiliation she inflicted to him and that had ruined also the relationship with his brother…
Isabelle, also, do not deserve all the hate she received for something who is truly more fault of Marie than hers
I think that no matter what, the children who were closest to Marie would not enjoy seeing as their father doted on another woman. And Isabella actively antagonized Marie upon her return to court. At the end of the day, this whole mess if Francis’ fault (he should’ve told Marie about Jean’s ennobling) but everyone has some blame.
Agreed. There was no, absolutely no, way this was going to end well, and no one is perfect. Someone once told me something along the lines of 'when you first fall in love, it's easy. You're young, you've got the world at your feet. Give it ten years, and, well, life gets complicated. There are job stresses, kids, all sorts of other things. Not every relationship can withstand those strains and the changes that necessarily come with them.' I think that sums up Francis and Marie very very well. The loss of two children in very quick succession broke them because they dealt with their overwhelming grief in such different ways.
You're not wrong that Marie's death in childbirth would have solved an awful lot of problems, but where's the fun in that? Doing things the hard way is so much more fun 😈
Tho it's being fault of Francis II for being too merciful, he should've order Isabelle to be poisoned or otherwise killed as soon as his father was dead.
Being good, merciful man is not necessarilly good when you're king and you should think first and foremost about good of a state, even if you need to make questionable choices.
Again, I don't disagree, but that REALLY would have shattered his relationship with his brother and sister....
They wouldn't need to know it was Francis who did it, how they would even prove it? And also I didn't bring that point up again out of my own desire, but I think isabella is too lenient on Isabelle, Isabelle is threat to the crown by simply living and breathing.
It's a bit overly paranoid, all she is is the former mistress of a dead king.
I'm constantly having to remind Ziggy that not everyone sees murder as their first answer to life's problems.
Who as it's seen now has influence on younger children of said king and can sow discord as long as she's alive.
Tho humiliating one's mother and being able to sway princes of the realm are very good reasons to unalive someone in Middle Ages/Renaissance, people died for less.
I think it's a different case that my previous opinion, which was very overreaching.
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Like literally, look at what happened to Diane de Poitiers, all that's really necessary is to banish her and keep her from raising kids.
Who else would have dared order the death of the Duchess of Valentinois, mother to two of the late King's children? Jean, at least, would have blamed him. I mean, you saw how Jean reacted when she was merely banished. If she'd been killed, he'd have been ten times worse. And Louise would have been distraught. But because Isabella was merely banished, Louise and François managed to form a bond over planning their father's memorial, albeit a shaky one. That's got to be worth something, right?
Tbf, Isabella IS pushing Jean into rebellion against his brother, so I wouldn't call it overly paranoid NOW, but it would have been in 1533.
I feel you. I sometimes have to rein @Tudorfan in in the same way, although he often has to restrain my worse impulses too, so I'd say we're pretty even, all things considered.
Well, actually, he'd be well within his rights to execute her. But as I say, NOW, not back in the summer of 1533.
From moral standpoint? Yeah. But I don't think for example Machiavelli (and he lived in the era we're talking about) would hestitate to do exactly that if it benefited the state.
Didn't Diane literally push Henry to sleep with his own wife? That's very different situation than whatever Isabelle tries to do.
Dowager Queen Marie, Jean doesn't like her already so I think he might blame his biological mother instead of his brother.
Agreed about your point with Louise, kings are also human and bond with his sister is surely worth something for Francois.
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I think if she didn't have such influence of younger siblings of the king he would, yeah.