A Prosperous Qing Dynasty: 1875 - 1900
- Thread starter PrussianQing2015
- Start date
What does China get for joining the allies? The only reason they joined the war was to get Tsingtao back from Germany.
So China would remain neutral then. Though would they more likely send troops to volunteer?
I take it that in this timeline, Germany probably wouldn't be taking Tsingtao at all. Plus, they'd be fighting fire with fire as I see China purchasing weapons from them.
While they wouldn't accept the German model for a constitutional monarchy, I've decided that maybe the Qing could accept German style military organization. Particularly, one that can compliment the Banner System. Here's what Reddit user Telemannische_Aias suggested on a post I did.
Here's my latest revision.
In 1875, shortly after the accession of the Guangxu Emperor, Empress Dowager Cixi becomes severely ill from liver problems and dies. This left Empress Dowager Ci'an (who would still pass away in 1881) by herself, so she reappoints Prince Gong as Prince Regent to rule by her side.
Using his position to push for modernization, Gong accepts Shen Bouzhen's rejected proposals for the reform of the Military Imperial Examinations with the inclusion of Mathematics, the abolition of the military examinations as they were based on obsolete weaponry, and a telegraph line from Fuzhou to Mawei and Xiamen, and then proceeding across to Taiwan. This time, he relied on a German company for the latter to be completed instead of the Danish one that was originally contracted for the project. He also aloud the Woosung road to continue operating. Like in the original timeline, Shen Baozhen succeeded in initiating construction of the Keelung Coal Mine in Taiwan, the first modern coal mine in China, to fuel the Fuzhou Navy Yard. Industrialization would pickup much quicker than it actually did historically. The major factor in this was that power was moved back from the regional governors to the central government. Gong would also hire western tutors to help give Guangxu a western education.
One of the most important actions taken as mentioned above was the modernization of the military. Or specifically, the modernization of the Eight Banners. First off, he announces the creation of a central army, bringing an end to the Provincial Army system. Provincial leaders like Zeng Guofan, Dong Fuxiang, Shen Bouzhen, and Li Hongzhang support Gong's decision while others like Liu Yongfu did not. Secondly, Gong would recognize Liu Jintang's efforts during the Qing reconquest of Xinjiang as his army used modern German artillery. This leads to the Qing Dynasty purchasing more German weapons and equipment and maybe more deals with Germany in general. Gong would arrange for German instructors and competent drillmasters to come and teach soldiers the art of modern combat. Volunteers were also sent abroad for such education. Along with training, soldiers would also begin wearing western style uniforms. Bannerman soldiers would wear German style uniforms with custom designed Pickelhaube that resembled traditional helmets. Each uniform had different colors based on the banner the soldiers served under. Bordered bannermen would wear trousers whose colors were different from their coats. Palace guards would also wear custom designed German uniforms with their traditional helmets.
Regarding transportation, railways would see an uptick in construction. Narrow gauge became the general motive, particularly in mountainous regions.
Standard gauge railways would connect major Chinese cities with narrow gauge cities built to connect mountain communities. Beijing and other major Chinese cities would have tramways built. Western style horse drawn carriages would be introduced to the imperial court and other wealthy Chinese families. The roofing of these carriages are modeled after roofs of traditional sedan chairs. Those who carried the sedan chairs were reassigned as coachmen and footmen respectively. Shipping would also grow in size due to high demands from the Qing government. An imperial yacht would be constructed at Jiangnan Shipyard and launched in 1879.
The Imperial court would be introduced to western fashion, though they would only wear them on select occasions such as military related business, visiting another country on official business, or attending a western style ball. Depending on their rank, men's uniforms or suits would be designed to have the same color schemes as their traditional robes while wearing traditional Manchu hats. Women would wear dresses that had the same colors and patterns as their traditional robes while maintaining their Liangbatou hairstyles. Civilian clothing would remain unchanged with the exception of western style shoes being worn. Particularly, in factories where they would work.
With the money made from modernizing industrialization, the Qing are able to have the Old Summer Palace rebuilt. Including the Xiyang Lou with its western style buildings. Outside the imperial residence, in major Chinese cities, western architecture as we know it would not pick up as quickly as it did in Japan. However, the introduction of western building techniques would result in the creation of a new type of architecture that's best described as 70% Chinese and 30% western.
Like in the original timeline, the Sino-French war would occur, but would end with either Tonkin being under Qing jurisdiction or then Guangxi highlands being under fragmented control. This would bring into question whether or not the French conquest of Indochina would continue if they have no legitimizing claim through the Tonkin Kings.
In 1887, the Guangxu Emperor is able to rule China by his own right. That same year, he would marry Consort Zhen, whom would become empress. He would have three children through her and additional children through his consorts.
In 1890 or 1891, the Qing Dynasty would begin to reform into a constitutional monarchy in order to keep up with Japan. Embracing German government organization, the constitution drafted recognizes the ethno-military distinctions of the empire. The three banner groups (8 Manchu, 8 Mongol, and 4 Chinese) in a way are matched to the kingdoms under Germany--the Manchus as direct subjects of the Qing Crown (the equivalent of the Lands of the Prussian Crown), the Chinese as subjects of the empire (the other German states), and the Mongols as a sovereign state of the union (like Bavaria). Guangxu would appoint Zhang Zhidong as China's first Prime Minister (or Grand Chancellor, whatever title works better). It should be noted that Zhidong would have the backing of the military, which helps solidify the army as a tool of the state and prevent cliques from forming.
For the rest of the decade, I have two options regarding the Sino-Japanese War.
1. The Sino-Japanese War still occurs. It ends with China losing Formosa, but winning Joseon, turning it into a sovereign state of the empire. This would show that while the Qing Imperial Navy, even if it's more centralized in this timeline, is inferior to the the Japanese Imperial Navy, it is able to win land battles with its superior army.
2. The Sino-Japanese War is avoided as China would honor the Convention of Tientsin by informing Japan of their involvement in stopping the Donghak Peasant Revolution. Though it could open doors to future conflicts.
In 1899, when western architecture begins to pick up around China, construction of a western style palace on the grounds of the Zhongnanhai would begin. The Royal Palace of Caserta, the Palace of Capodimonte, the Royal Palace of Naples. and the roofing of the Xiyang Lou would serve as models, resulting in an Italian Baroque palace with Chinese elements. Guangxu would use the palace to meet with western visitors and host western style balls and dinners. The palace would be completed in the late 1900's.
In 1875, shortly after the accession of the Guangxu Emperor, Empress Dowager Cixi becomes severely ill from liver problems and dies. This left Empress Dowager Ci'an (who would still pass away in 1881) by herself, so she reappoints Prince Gong as Prince Regent to rule by her side.
Using his position to push for modernization, Gong accepts Shen Bouzhen's rejected proposals for the reform of the Military Imperial Examinations with the inclusion of Mathematics, the abolition of the military examinations as they were based on obsolete weaponry, and a telegraph line from Fuzhou to Mawei and Xiamen, and then proceeding across to Taiwan. This time, he relied on a German company for the latter to be completed instead of the Danish one that was originally contracted for the project. He also aloud the Woosung road to continue operating. Like in the original timeline, Shen Baozhen succeeded in initiating construction of the Keelung Coal Mine in Taiwan, the first modern coal mine in China, to fuel the Fuzhou Navy Yard. Industrialization would pickup much quicker than it actually did historically. The major factor in this was that power was moved back from the regional governors to the central government. Gong would also hire western tutors to help give Guangxu a western education.
One of the most important actions taken as mentioned above was the modernization of the military. Or specifically, the modernization of the Eight Banners. First off, he announces the creation of a central army, bringing an end to the Provincial Army system. Provincial leaders like Zeng Guofan, Dong Fuxiang, Shen Bouzhen, and Li Hongzhang support Gong's decision while others like Liu Yongfu did not. Secondly, Gong would recognize Liu Jintang's efforts during the Qing reconquest of Xinjiang as his army used modern German artillery. This leads to the Qing Dynasty purchasing more German weapons and equipment and maybe more deals with Germany in general. Gong would arrange for German instructors and competent drillmasters to come and teach soldiers the art of modern combat. Volunteers were also sent abroad for such education. Along with training, soldiers would also begin wearing western style uniforms. Bannerman soldiers would wear German style uniforms with custom designed Pickelhaube that resembled traditional helmets. Each uniform had different colors based on the banner the soldiers served under. Bordered bannermen would wear trousers whose colors were different from their coats. Palace guards would also wear custom designed German uniforms with their traditional helmets.
Regarding transportation, railways would see an uptick in construction. Narrow gauge became the general motive, particularly in mountainous regions.
Standard gauge railways would connect major Chinese cities with narrow gauge cities built to connect mountain communities. Beijing and other major Chinese cities would have tramways built. Western style horse drawn carriages would be introduced to the imperial court and other wealthy Chinese families. The roofing of these carriages are modeled after roofs of traditional sedan chairs. Those who carried the sedan chairs were reassigned as coachmen and footmen respectively. Shipping would also grow in size due to high demands from the Qing government. An imperial yacht would be constructed at Jiangnan Shipyard and launched in 1879.
The Imperial court would be introduced to western fashion, though they would only wear them on select occasions such as military related business, visiting another country on official business, or attending a western style ball. Depending on their rank, men's uniforms or suits would be designed to have the same color schemes as their traditional robes while wearing traditional Manchu hats. Women would wear dresses that had the same colors and patterns as their traditional robes while maintaining their Liangbatou hairstyles. Civilian clothing would remain unchanged with the exception of western style shoes being worn. Particularly, in factories where they would work.
With the money made from modernizing industrialization, the Qing are able to have the Old Summer Palace rebuilt. Including the Xiyang Lou with its western style buildings. Outside the imperial residence, in major Chinese cities, western architecture as we know it would not pick up as quickly as it did in Japan. However, the introduction of western building techniques would result in the creation of a new type of architecture that's best described as 70% Chinese and 30% western.
Like in the original timeline, the Sino-French war would occur, but would end with either Tonkin being under Qing jurisdiction or then Guangxi highlands being under fragmented control. This would bring into question whether or not the French conquest of Indochina would continue if they have no legitimizing claim through the Tonkin Kings.
In 1887, the Guangxu Emperor is able to rule China by his own right. That same year, he would marry Consort Zhen, whom would become empress. He would have three children through her and additional children through his consorts.
In 1890 or 1891, the Qing Dynasty would begin to reform into a constitutional monarchy in order to keep up with Japan. Embracing German government organization, the constitution drafted recognizes the ethno-military distinctions of the empire. The three banner groups (8 Manchu, 8 Mongol, and 4 Chinese) in a way are matched to the kingdoms under Germany--the Manchus as direct subjects of the Qing Crown (the equivalent of the Lands of the Prussian Crown), the Chinese as subjects of the empire (the other German states), and the Mongols as a sovereign state of the union (like Bavaria). Guangxu would appoint Zhang Zhidong as China's first Prime Minister (or Grand Chancellor, whatever title works better). It should be noted that Zhidong would have the backing of the military, which helps solidify the army as a tool of the state and prevent cliques from forming.
For the rest of the decade, I have two options regarding the Sino-Japanese War.
1. The Sino-Japanese War still occurs. It ends with China losing Formosa, but winning Joseon, turning it into a sovereign state of the empire. This would show that while the Qing Imperial Navy, even if it's more centralized in this timeline, is inferior to the the Japanese Imperial Navy, it is able to win land battles with its superior army.
2. The Sino-Japanese War is avoided as China would honor the Convention of Tientsin by informing Japan of their involvement in stopping the Donghak Peasant Revolution. Though it could open doors to future conflicts.
In 1899, when western architecture begins to pick up around China, construction of a western style palace on the grounds of the Zhongnanhai would begin. The Royal Palace of Caserta, the Palace of Capodimonte, the Royal Palace of Naples. and the roofing of the Xiyang Lou would serve as models, resulting in an Italian Baroque palace with Chinese elements. Guangxu would use the palace to meet with western visitors and host western style balls and dinners. The palace would be completed in the late 1900's.
Formosa was a vital Part of China at the time. China would rather lose Korea than Formosa, so it would be more logical that in the treaty, they give up Korea's Protectorate status in favour of keeping Formosa
How come? I'm curious as to what makes Formosa important to China. I'm just trying to decide an outcome based on a comment on Reddit by Telemannische_Aias.
Here's what he said.
When I revisited the paragraph I came to what I thought would be the conclusion.
You make a good point now that you've said that. 👍🏻
Carter I'm Yog
Banned
Ask any American think tank, really. Seriously, one hundred years later, Taiwan still holds the same importance for China. It is a not-so-common joke that the quickest way to complete the reunification of China is for Taipei to declare independence as a Republic of Taiwan.
Demographically speaking, Taiwan is mostly consisted of Chinese emigrants, while Korea is... Koreans. And in comparison to Korea, Taiwan's settlements are better charted, and thus easier to govern and tax, but the Qing.
it had a population of over 2mil, was highly developed, and was an integral part of the Qing, even more so than Korea. its unrealistic to have the Qing win at sea except for a select battles on land, but with the reforms in your tl, the army would be much better, and so can beat the Japanese on land.
Japanese control of Formosa gives them dominance over the entirety of the south China coast. It would be like the US surrendering control of Florida to a hostile power. Even if it was winning in Korea it would have to settle to keep Formosa. The same thing happened in the Sino-French War. China was winning in Tonkin but gave it up to keep Formosa.
this is exactly what i was saying. Its more likely that with this new army, Qing can win in Korea, but with Japanese naval dominance, they are able to take Formosa. Also, one of the other reasons they gave up Tonkin was the threat of the Japanese and Russians joining the war.
Revision
Here's my latest revision. I also included some elements by Reddit user Telemannische_Aias.
In 1875, shortly after the accession of the Guangxu Emperor, Empress Dowager Cixi becomes severely ill from liver problems and dies. This left Empress Dowager Ci'an by herself, so she reappoints Prince Gong as Prince Regent to rule by her side. Using his position to push for modernization, Gong would open China to modernization, allowing for industrialization to take place.
In 1876, after recognizing Liu Jintang's army's efforts during the Qing reconquest of Xinjiang for its use of modern German artillery, Gong would seek to have the Eight Banners made into a modernized army. This would give way to the empire building relationships with Germany and Russia, becoming part of the “Three-legged Stool” of world politics—the three expanding states protected each other from international threats. However, while an economic and military alliance with Germany developed rapidly, ongoing disputes with Russia over Turkestan and Kokand put strain on Sino-Russian relations. Bannermen soldiers would begin to wear German style uniforms designed to have the same colors as their traditional armor. Soldiers under the plain banners would wear yellow, white, blue, and red uniforms. Soldiers under the bordered yellow, white, and blue banner would wear yellow, white, or blue coats with red trousers while soldiers under the bordered red banner would wear red coats with white trousers. Plus, their picklehaubs would be modified to resemble traditional helmets.
With the money made from modernizing industrialization, the Qing were able to have the Old Summer Palace rebuilt. Including the Xiyang Lou with its western style buildings. Outside the imperial residence, in major Chinese cities, western architecture as we know it would not pick up as quickly as it did in Japan. However, the introduction of western building techniques would result in the creation of a new type of architecture that's best described as 70% Chinese and 30% western.
Like in the original timeline, Ci'an dies in 1881.
The Sino-French War still occurred like in the original timeline, but it would last longer, ending in 1887. While China was able to win the war in general and turn Tonkin into a protectorate, they suffered many navel losses and were forced to cede Annam. That same year, Gong would step down and allow Guangxu to China by his own right.
From his childhood to his teen years, Guangxu was educated in politics and economics by western tutors hired by Gong. And by 1890, upon learning of the Meiji Constitution, that knowledge would lead to the proposition to reform China into a constitutional monarchy along the lines of Britain, Germany and Japan. Zhang Zhidong would be appointed as the empire's first Imperial Chancellor, a title in which the Emperor would resurrect. The constitution, based on German government organization, would further modernize the twenty banner groups (8 Manchu, 8 Mongol, and 4 Chinese) to the point where the ethno-military distinctions of the empire would be recognized by the empire. The three banner groups in a way are matched to the kingdoms under Germany--the Manchus as direct subjects of the Qing Crown (the equivalent of the Lands of the Prussian Crown), the Chinese as subjects of the empire (the other German states), and the Mongols as a sovereign state of the union (like Bavaria).
At first, the new parliament would meet in the Forbidden City until a new legislative building would be built. The building itself was based on a rejected design for the Palace of Westminster, but with Chinese elements, resulting in a Chinese-Neoclassical eclectic building.
Regarding transportation, railways would see an uptick in construction, connecting the major cities across China . Beijing and other major Chinese cities would have tramways built. Western style horse drawn carriages would be introduced to the imperial court and other wealthy Chinese families. The roofing of these carriages are modeled after roofs of traditional sedan chairs. Those who carried the sedan chairs were reassigned as coachmen and footmen respectively. Shipping would also grow in size due to high demands from the Qing government as well as trade deals. An imperial yacht would be constructed at Jiangnan Shipyard and launched in 1889.
From 1894 to 1895, like in the original timeline, the Sino-Japanese War would happen. While China would still lose Korea to Japan, they would be able to keep Taiwan. Ironically, China did far better on land than on sea.
By the late 1890s, western architecture would start to catch on in China. Many big cities went through major urban redevelopment. The architecture for the most part was Chinese-Western Eclectic with Beijing unparticular would get a complete makeover, taking influence from London, Berlin, Vienna, and St. Petersburg.
In 1899, construction would begin for a western-style palace on the grounds of the Zhongnanhai. The Royal Palace of Caserta, the Palace of Capodimonte, the Royal Palace of Naples. and the roofing of the Xiyang Lou would serve as models, resulting in an Italian Baroque palace with Chinese elements. Construction would last until the second half of the 1900's and the Emperor would use the palace for occasions like hosting western style balls and holding audiences with westerners.
So far, the only other thing I can think of is China interfering with the Russo-Japanese war, turning it into a three-way conflict.
In 1875, shortly after the accession of the Guangxu Emperor, Empress Dowager Cixi becomes severely ill from liver problems and dies. This left Empress Dowager Ci'an by herself, so she reappoints Prince Gong as Prince Regent to rule by her side. Using his position to push for modernization, Gong would open China to modernization, allowing for industrialization to take place.
In 1876, after recognizing Liu Jintang's army's efforts during the Qing reconquest of Xinjiang for its use of modern German artillery, Gong would seek to have the Eight Banners made into a modernized army. This would give way to the empire building relationships with Germany and Russia, becoming part of the “Three-legged Stool” of world politics—the three expanding states protected each other from international threats. However, while an economic and military alliance with Germany developed rapidly, ongoing disputes with Russia over Turkestan and Kokand put strain on Sino-Russian relations. Bannermen soldiers would begin to wear German style uniforms designed to have the same colors as their traditional armor. Soldiers under the plain banners would wear yellow, white, blue, and red uniforms. Soldiers under the bordered yellow, white, and blue banner would wear yellow, white, or blue coats with red trousers while soldiers under the bordered red banner would wear red coats with white trousers. Plus, their picklehaubs would be modified to resemble traditional helmets.
With the money made from modernizing industrialization, the Qing were able to have the Old Summer Palace rebuilt. Including the Xiyang Lou with its western style buildings. Outside the imperial residence, in major Chinese cities, western architecture as we know it would not pick up as quickly as it did in Japan. However, the introduction of western building techniques would result in the creation of a new type of architecture that's best described as 70% Chinese and 30% western.
Like in the original timeline, Ci'an dies in 1881.
The Sino-French War still occurred like in the original timeline, but it would last longer, ending in 1887. While China was able to win the war in general and turn Tonkin into a protectorate, they suffered many navel losses and were forced to cede Annam. That same year, Gong would step down and allow Guangxu to China by his own right.
From his childhood to his teen years, Guangxu was educated in politics and economics by western tutors hired by Gong. And by 1890, upon learning of the Meiji Constitution, that knowledge would lead to the proposition to reform China into a constitutional monarchy along the lines of Britain, Germany and Japan. Zhang Zhidong would be appointed as the empire's first Imperial Chancellor, a title in which the Emperor would resurrect. The constitution, based on German government organization, would further modernize the twenty banner groups (8 Manchu, 8 Mongol, and 4 Chinese) to the point where the ethno-military distinctions of the empire would be recognized by the empire. The three banner groups in a way are matched to the kingdoms under Germany--the Manchus as direct subjects of the Qing Crown (the equivalent of the Lands of the Prussian Crown), the Chinese as subjects of the empire (the other German states), and the Mongols as a sovereign state of the union (like Bavaria).
At first, the new parliament would meet in the Forbidden City until a new legislative building would be built. The building itself was based on a rejected design for the Palace of Westminster, but with Chinese elements, resulting in a Chinese-Neoclassical eclectic building.
Regarding transportation, railways would see an uptick in construction, connecting the major cities across China . Beijing and other major Chinese cities would have tramways built. Western style horse drawn carriages would be introduced to the imperial court and other wealthy Chinese families. The roofing of these carriages are modeled after roofs of traditional sedan chairs. Those who carried the sedan chairs were reassigned as coachmen and footmen respectively. Shipping would also grow in size due to high demands from the Qing government as well as trade deals. An imperial yacht would be constructed at Jiangnan Shipyard and launched in 1889.
From 1894 to 1895, like in the original timeline, the Sino-Japanese War would happen. While China would still lose Korea to Japan, they would be able to keep Taiwan. Ironically, China did far better on land than on sea.
By the late 1890s, western architecture would start to catch on in China. Many big cities went through major urban redevelopment. The architecture for the most part was Chinese-Western Eclectic with Beijing unparticular would get a complete makeover, taking influence from London, Berlin, Vienna, and St. Petersburg.
In 1899, construction would begin for a western-style palace on the grounds of the Zhongnanhai. The Royal Palace of Caserta, the Palace of Capodimonte, the Royal Palace of Naples. and the roofing of the Xiyang Lou would serve as models, resulting in an Italian Baroque palace with Chinese elements. Construction would last until the second half of the 1900's and the Emperor would use the palace for occasions like hosting western style balls and holding audiences with westerners.
So far, the only other thing I can think of is China interfering with the Russo-Japanese war, turning it into a three-way conflict.
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thats really good!. Is he going to also rebuild the Summer Palace too?
I forgot it to mention it when I first made this, but I just included it, In other words, yes. The Summer Palace is rebuilt.
If you reread the scenario, I do mention a building for Chinese parliament being built.