A Pan-Pacific Polynesian TL Idea

[Halocon]

A couple months ago, I posted a thread asking whether a trans-Pacific pre-Columbian trade network was possible, and the response was mostly "yes, but slow as all hell." So I've though up a preliminary basic timeline of major events, and hopefully can continue if it proves plausible.

~8000 BCE: Pre-Polynesians arrive in southern Taiwan from South China.

1800 BCE: Austronesians reach the Philippines, with some groups retaining contact with Taiwan, mostly in the north.

1600 BCE: Lapita culture arises in Bismarck Sea islands, descended from settlers of the Philippines; they too retain contact with their origins.

900 BCE: Western Polynesia colonized. Samoa is settled, creating springboard for eastern migration. There are semi-regular voyages back to Melanesia.

500 CE: The Marquesas are reached by Samoans, who create a cyclical trade with their homeland for breadfruit and wood (?).

c. 600 CE: To record the many transactions of the West Polynesia-Taiwan trade, some traders begin developing a system of markings. By 900, this would evolve into a proper script.

700 CE: Voyagers from the Marquesas land in OTL Peru, where they encounter the Wari states and obtain valuable goods such as kumara and gold. The kumara is taken home and planted, but after a few generations the gold passes west through the ancient and regular trade routes, sparking curiosity as to where it came from. Ships begin reaching the coast of Peru every six years or so, and gold is passed west across the Pacific, eventually ending up in China. At first, the items are curios, but then new plants arrive

800 CE: Marquesans colonize Hawaii, which becomes significantly more isolated than other islands.

1200 CE: Rapa Nui is colonized. Knowing of the strange things from further east, more voyages are sent from there.

1250 CE: Rapa Nui voyagers make contact with the Chimú, and a few settle along the coast in an outpost and safe haven for ships. Marquesans begin using it as a port.

1360 CE: A Chimú emissary sails with Marquesans back to their islands, and for five years crosses the remainder of the Pacific, Indonesia, and Indochina, eventually arriving in the Ming capital, where he gives salutation to the Hongwu Emperor.

1366 CE: In response to the Chimú emissary, the Ming send a man of their own across the sea to "Fusang," the name given to the Andean region by a group of Chinese monks who claimed to have gone there centuries prior.

What changes should be made?

 

[PhilippeO]

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1360 CE: A Chimú emissary sails with Marquesans back to their islands, and for five years crosses the remainder of the Pacific, Indonesia, and Indochina, eventually arriving in the Ming capital, where he gives salutation to the Hongwu Emperor.

why would Chimu go (or even heard) of Ming dynasty, Country so far it took five years journey ? Chimu might send emissary to Rapa Nui, any island beyond would be only distant place only heard as some sources of goods; China, Asia and Indonesia would be mythical places.

 

[Dane Murgen]

Okay, so I'm not a Polynesian historian or anything. Heck, I ain't even a Polynesian, but I have been researching Polynesia for a while, and I think I may have something to say.

1600 BCE: Lapita culture arises in Bismarck Sea islands, descended from settlers of the Philippines; they too retain contact with their origins.

I'm going to guess that this would be the POD for the timeline that you may or may not be trying to create, since I'm pretty sure IOTL at this moment, the Lapita culture did not have the sailing capability to justify a long term connection with such a faraway place, as people are more likely to die going there and back. However, this POD could be that something was found in the Bismark sea that would justify such a death toll, and so maintain a connection with the Lapita's origins long enough for writing to come about from these interactions.

500 CE: The Marquesas are reached by Samoans, who create a cyclical trade with their homeland for breadfruit and wood (?).

I'm not quite sure on this one, but quite possibly you could make an argument for the trading of obsidian for food, as I believe that it was highly sought after by the Polynesians.

Don't quote me on this, though. I'm just a high schooler that doesn't even do history, so if there are any other justifications for this, then yeah.

 

[Arkenfolm]

So when do the Polynesians settle in Galapagos, which is extremely close to the Chimu civilisation. Maybe trading the shells of Galapagos tortoise or other wildlife products?

Also, what about the effects on the more remote parts of Polynesian civilisation like Hawaii and New Zealand? Stronger Maori?

 

[Halocon]

this



why would Chimu go (or even heard) of Ming dynasty, Country so far it took five years journey ? Chimu might send emissary to Rapa Nui, any island beyond would be only distant place only heard as some sources of goods; China, Asia and Indonesia would be mythical places.

Yeah, that's a stretch, to be honest. I had originally planned for it to be a Chimú guy (or a small group) hitching a ride with some Polynesians and being a sort of Andean Marco Polo, also retaining a few things that ultimately come to the emperor in China, which would pique his curiosity and potentially bring about Chinese Pacific exploration; if Zheng He still exists, maybe send his fleet on a grand tour of the Eastern Sea?

Also I completely forgot the Galápagos. That, I think would be a far better place for a Polynesian settlement with regular contact. Maybe Hawaiians fleeing warfare on their islands?

As for Hawaii itself, I think it will have less of a connection to the network, though it may be influenced by corrupted versions of East Asian beliefs like Buddhism. Aotearoa and the Māori will likely have connections, relatively strong ones, to the network, and will be rather different, even without a certain Australian yam mutation.

On the off chance that this TL's scenario actually has some realism, what's a good name? I thought of "No One Knows How Far It Goes."

 

[Dane Murgen]

Also, what about the effects on the more remote parts of Polynesian civilisation like Hawaii and New Zealand? Stronger Maori?

Perhaps, due to the early contact with South America, the Maori as we know would not exist, as the current culture seems to have been borne of declining resources, as well as isolation.

However, if the isolation is inevitable, then possibly the South Island would become more populated than it is IOTL due to the possible introduction of potatoes, which is more cold-tolerant than kumara. This introduction becomes more likely as the connections between South America and Polynesia exist.

 

[Halocon]

Just thought of another thing: contact with China means that eventually metalworking and, more importantly, compasses may spread to Polynesia. The former may not be of much utility, but could the latter assist the already-proficient navigators on the Pacific? I'd imagine having a mostly-reliable method of determining north would really help create stronger and faster routes of trade. And could it lead to charts of the Pacific, or is there no need for such things for Polynesians?

 

[Arkenfolm]

Yeah, that's a stretch, to be honest. I had originally planned for it to be a Chimú guy (or a small group) hitching a ride with some Polynesians and being a sort of Andean Marco Polo, also retaining a few things that ultimately come to the emperor in China, which would pique his curiosity and potentially bring about Chinese Pacific exploration; if Zheng He still exists, maybe send his fleet on a grand tour of the Eastern Sea?

Also I completely forgot the Galápagos. That, I think would be a far better place for a Polynesian settlement with regular contact. Maybe Hawaiians fleeing warfare on their islands?

As for Hawaii itself, I think it will have less of a connection to the network, though it may be influenced by corrupted versions of East Asian beliefs like Buddhism. Aotearoa and the Māori will likely have connections, relatively strong ones, to the network, and will be rather different, even without a certain Australian yam mutation.

On the off chance that this TL's scenario actually has some realism, what's a good name? I thought of "No One Knows How Far It Goes."

If you sail to the South American coast from Rapa Nui, you'd almost certainly know of the Humboldt Current taking you north, which flows right to Galapagos. It's a bit more of a ways from Hawaii. As I've noted in other threads on the potential reach of the Polynesians, the Juan Fernandez Islands and Cocos Island are also possibly likely to end up with a Polynesian population--anything beyond that might be impossible because of disturbances from Europe. Or for that matter, China, if we're going with Fusang and the probable establishments of overseas Chinese colonies in the Andes and probably eventually Mesoamerica too.

Maybe then Zheng He actually will discover the New World in 1421 as the esteemed historian Gavin Menzies discusses.

However, wouldn't the Chimu know of China anyway? Maybe not to the degree that, say, Rome knew of China, but wouldn't they know of some culture far beyond the seas that has some huge desire for gold and silver?

Perhaps, due to the early contact with South America, the Maori as we know would not exist, as the current culture seems to have been borne of declining resources, as well as isolation.

However, if the isolation is inevitable, then possibly the South Island would become more populated than it is IOTL due to the possible introduction of potatoes, which is more cold-tolerant than kumara. This introduction becomes more likely as the connections between South America and Polynesia exist.

Maybe, but if it's still being settled by people from the same place, I think the tangata whenua might as well still be there.

One issue with introducing potatoes from South American contact is that I don't believe that potatoes are particularly useful in all the tropical islands these Polynesians would have to go through. Meaning you would need a "great man" sort of figure with that odd spark of inspiration and foresight--who would almost certainly end up being one of the great culture heroes of the Maori.

Considering the impact of the introduction of the potato in New Zealand OTL, that could be huge if done at as early date as possible--hell, maybe they bring the potato while settling the place. They still could get the other elements of the Polynesian package (the domesticated animals) which didn't make it to New Zealand originally at some point too. I don't know if you could make some analogue of the Musket Wars or cooler yet, the Maori"Viking"-esque raids as portrayed in Lands of Red and Gold. You might have additional settlement in Tasmania (comparatively small Aboriginal population to contend with compared to the continent itself), though, or more people trying their luck on isolated islands like the Kermadec Islands, Norfolk Island (which has the very nice New Zealand flax growing there), and New Zealand's subantarctic islands.

 

[Intransigent Southerner]

A few issues here, please don't take it personally.

1600 BCE: Lapita culture arises in Bismarck Sea islands, descended from settlers of the Philippines; they too retain contact with their origins.

What is the benefit of this? People in the Philippines and Maluku always knew there were islands to the east, and vice versa. They didn't bother maintaining close contact because the western Pacific is apparent devoid of resources that Southeast Asians want or need. This is even more the case in 1600 BC, when there most likely aren't even chiefdom societies in the Philippines and Maluku that would theoretically be interested in trade backed by the elite.

c. 600 CE: To record the many transactions of the West Polynesia-Taiwan trade, some traders begin developing a system of markings. By 900, this would evolve into a proper script.

Every single people involved in this trade would be non-state societies (Taiwan had no states until the Dutch, the Philippines not until the Spaniards, Eastern Indonesia not until the rise of Ternate and Gowa in the 16th centuries, there have never been pre-colonial states in Melanesia, Tonga only became a potentially archaic state long after 600 CE).

There is, so far, no examples of writing emerging natively in a non-state society. There are examples of scripts used by complex chiefdoms, but they were ultimately influenced by another script (e.g. for South Sulawesi alphabets there was some sort of Indic inspiration). There is no sizable community of literate people anywhere near most of this route. The only possible exception is Taiwan with its proximity to China, but Taiwanese aborigines never developed writing.

And again, what are they trading? There is no powerful elite anywhere between Taiwan and West Polynesia that would be interested in luxury goods.

1360 CE: A Chimú emissary sails with Marquesans back to their islands, and for five years crosses the remainder of the Pacific, Indonesia, and Indochina, eventually arriving in the Ming capital, where he gives salutation to the Hongwu Emperor.

Why would this emissary ever do anything like this? Doesn't he know he would almost certainly never return to his homeland and would, in all likelihood, be defying his king's orders?

Stronger Maori?

Maori are disadvantaged by the climate of Aotearoa + isolation (Tonga is horrible for agriculture as well, but the Tongans could conquer the nearby islands and hence achieve the second most complex society in Polynesia). It is extremely unlikely Maori could transform their society into a theocratic monarchy like Hawai'i unless they get new, temperate crops. E: Potatoes would be very useful however.

 

[Halocon]

Response to Intransigent:

NEED: That needs a lot of hammering out, yeah. What could make the westerners care about the tiny isles to the east before SA is reached? I may have to pull a LORAG on that, make a new thing that IOTL was not present.

WRITING AND ELITE: Could the Lapita people develop a state? Dane suggested further up that the POD could be some kind of valuable resource that makes the Lapita culture retain knowledge of sailing or develop it anew. That could provide both a place for new writing to develop and a luxury-living elite, and also a major trade middleman.

EMISSARY: As stated before, I'll make him (or her or maybe even them) into a Marco Polo of the sea, if possible. Not an emissary per se, but perhaps a stowaway or curious Chimú who got on a Polynesian boat and headed west, learning navigation and such from them and eventually winding up in China by the mid-1370s (not 60s, sorry)

AGRICULTURE: Potatoes in Aotearoa are a must, though when they, and indeed the *Māori arrive are not really decided.

Hope that helps! Thanks for the feedback, this is a very rough idea after all.

 

[Arkenfolm]

Maori are disadvantaged by the climate of Aotearoa + isolation (Tonga is horrible for agriculture as well, but the Tongans could conquer the nearby islands and hence achieve the second most complex society in Polynesia). It is extremely unlikely Maori could transform their society into a theocratic monarchy like Hawai'i unless they get new, temperate crops. E: Potatoes would be very useful however.

Yeah, you would need major changes to their society for that, which I think South American trade reaching them at all would result in. Potatoes are hugely important, which I think would be implied given continual contact with South America (in addition to Andean technology as well as the rest of the Polynesian package which the Maori did not have OTL being imported).

 

[Intransigent Southerner]

Aotearoa could be extremely significant if it did have crops suitable for the climate. It escapes the main constraints on Polynesian societal development, especially size. I don't think it's a coincidence that the most developed Polynesian society (Hawai'i) was also on the largest tropical/subtropical islands.

NEED: That needs a lot of hammering out, yeah. What could make the westerners care about the tiny isles to the east before SA is reached? I may have to pull a LORAG on that, make a new thing that IOTL was not present.

Idk, maritime China with a missionary religion maybe? But that's a lot harder than it sounds, because OTL pre-Song China had a very poor knowledge of sailing in open seas, and even with a missionary religion there are better targets (e.g. Islam and Catholicism are both missionary religions and they barely impacted the precolonial Western Pacific).

Island Southeast Asia, outside of three places that are too inland for involvement in the Pacific, is actually really unsuited for indigenous state development because it appears to be incapable of supporting high population densities. This is especially the case before rice and iron.

Could the Lapita people develop a state?

Their Tongan descendants made something which appears to have been a state, a somewhat rudimentary one, yes, but still a state. We can take the building of the Paepaeotelea royal cemetery (c. 1350) as the beginning of this Tongan state. If these developments occurred six or seven centuries earlier, it could fit your timeline. But I'm not sure if a Tongan or otherwise South Pacific state could develop that early. Direct foreign trade might help immensely, like Java with India.

 

[Arkenfolm]

Aotearoa could be extremely significant if it did have crops suitable for the climate. It escapes the main constraints on Polynesian societal development, especially size. I don't think it's a coincidence that the most developed Polynesian society (Hawai'i) was also on the largest tropical/subtropical islands.

That's also interesting regarding the potential for Galapagos (which are bigger than Hawaii), although unlike New Zealand or Hawaii, Galapagos would require something to be done about the dry climate--I believe there's only one natural freshwater source in all the islands. However, the islands have plenty of extremely rainy spots, and I believe there's also ways of harvesting water from dew and fog which could be discovered by a resourceful civilisation. All that helps keep the population down compared to Hawaii or Aotearoa, but also seems good for promoting innovation (which might spread to the west coast of South America?).

 

[PhilippeO]

On the off chance that this TL's scenario actually has some realism, what's a good name? I thought of "No One Knows How Far It Goes."

Lands of Silver and Smoke ?

for it become source of silver and tobacco ?

However, wouldn't the Chimu know of China anyway? Maybe not to the degree that, say, Rome knew of China, but wouldn't they know of some culture far beyond the seas that has some huge desire for gold and silver?

it would like Middle Ages European knowledge of Serika and India. a mythical land whose they have garbled legend and fantastical people. Cynochepali, Cotton Sheep Plant, Manticore, etc.

it certainly wouldn't place any actual government send emissary. Marco polo / Ibn Batuta equivalent is possible; that would mean long-running well-traveled trade route however; the Chimu would come from trading family with history of interaction with Polynesia, he might even related to Polynesians, he would have friend and aquintance among Polynesian trader class.

 

[Halocon]

A few things I just found or thought of:

ZHENG HE: Born 1471, so if the butterflies aren't too severe he could still exist, and could still be captured, given the chop, and assist in the Yongle usurpation in 1402. If Polynesians arrive at court, he could learn new techniques from them.

LAPITA GOODS AND STATE: I really can't find a major trade good that would spur trade and state development in the Bismarck Sea. Any suggestions? If trade does start up, then state-building could be considerably faster, as Intransigent said. As for the actual state, maybe city-states built similarly to Nan Madol would be the way to go.

GALÁPAGOS SETTLERS: Who would they be? I'm thinking Hawaiians, but could Rapa Nui be another possibility?

RELIGION: Would East Asian religions spread well to Polynesia? I'd imagine that if individuals or missionaries came, they would bring other ideas or skills that would change the region.

 

[Arkenfolm]

I mentioned the Humboldt Current as well as the fact that the Rapa Nui would have a close role in South American trade and contact. That leads me to think that the Rapa Nui would be far more likely than Hawaiians in settling Galapagos.

 

[Zachariah]

Lapita Goods and State: True, obsidian and shells probably won't cut it as a major trade goods. But what about other readily available trade goods, such as pearls and coral? If you're not looking for luxury trade goods, then crops could easily cut it as well. And another possibility, ITTL, you could alter Lapita cuisine to make spicier food more popular- as such, they could easily start cultivating and trading nutmeg and mace within a few hundred years of their arrival, using the Myristica argentea species exclusively native to PNG and the Bismarck archipelago instead of the Myristica fragrans variety exclusive to the Banda Islands, pipping the Banda Islanders to the post by several hundred years, and securing their status as 'the Spice Islands' of TTL instead. And if you do, then there are your trade links with China, India and the rest of the world, completely secured until you reach the era of European plantations.

Galapagos settlers- it'd be a lot more plausible for the Rapa Nui, since they'd be going with the current instead of fighting it all the way- for the Hawaiians to have stood a chance of getting there, they'd have had to follow the currents down past Rapa Nui and make their way back up from the south anyway.

Religion- Maybe. If you went with the alternate Spice Islands option, then you would certainly have missionaries and the like coming along with those traders and merchants. But unlike the Banda Islands, its location's far more favorable for the East Asians than the Arabs, so you'd be far less likely to have Lapita Sultanates. Of course, the question is, which East Asian religions would have been proselytizing enough? And what sort of competition would they be going up against- what would the indigenous religion, or religions, of the Lapita peoples look like by then?

 

[kasumigenx]

What should happen is that Majapahit survive to the Age of Exploration and expand to the Pacific Islands..

 

[Dane Murgen]

Another possible luxury good that may be used is Pounamu, or nephrite jade that is found on the west coast of the South Island of New Zealand.

 

[Intransigent Southerner]

Another possible luxury good that may be used is Pounamu, or nephrite jade that is found on the west coast of the South Island of New Zealand.

Are you suggesting that Aotearoa jade could be a commodity in China? Well imo that wouldn't work. The Chinese like jade more than most of the world but it was never important in the economy. Until the Qing even the jade mines of Burma were rarely tapped (during the Ming rubies and sapphires from Burma were valued more than Burmese jade), and Burma isn't very far from the core of Chinese civilization.