A Land Power Beats a Naval Power at Sea

[Tonifranz]

The First Punic War is the only War I know where, considering their positions before the war started, a predominantly land power with virtuall no navy or naval traditions beat a predominantly sea power at sea and win the decisive battle of the war at sea and also wins most battles of the sea too.

It would be like Nazi Germany despite starting the war with an utterly inferior navy wins all but two naval battles against Britain and winning the decisive naval battle forcing Britain to sue for peace.

Question. Is there any other war where the land power with virtually no navy before the beginning of the war beats the sea power of the age in the war at sea? Could such a war happen during the Middle Ages or in the Age of Sail?

 

[RGB]

The First Punic War is the only War I know where, considering their positions before the war started, a predominantly land power beat a predominantly sea power at sea and win the decisive battle of the war at sea and also wins most battles of the sea too.

It would be like Nazi Germany despite starting the war with an utterly inferior navy wins all but two naval battles against Britain and winning the decisive naval battle forcing Britain to sue for peace.

Question. Is there any other war where the land power with virtually no navy before the beginning of the war beats the sea power of the age in the war at sea? Could such a war happen during the Middle Ages or in the Age of Sail?

Russia beating Sweden and the Ottomans in the various wars after the navy was built from scratch, insofar that either of those were naval powers themselves.

Marginal examples: Japan (almost) beating Korea in the Imjin war? Conversely, the Ming beating Japan in the Imjin war. Japan's brand-new steam navy beating both the Qing and Russia might just count too. Maybe Austria beating Italy like at Lissa (open question if Italy counts)?

Minamoto beating the Taira in the Genpei war, potentially. England overcoming the French and Spanish navies in the HYW, as ironic as it might be for large islands to be classed as "land powers.'

Generally speaking though "naval powers" depend on having a large population of sailors available and a reason to maintain a well-practiced navy, giving it major structural advantage. It's not something that you can just will into existence, a few exceptions aside.

 

[Tonifranz]

Russia beating Sweden and the Ottomans in the various wars after the navy was built from scratch, insofar that either of those were naval powers themselves. Japan (almost) beating Korea in the Imjin war? Conversely, the Ming beating Japan in the Imjin war. Generally speaking though "naval powers" depend on having a large population of sailors available and a reason to maintain a well-practiced navy, giving it major structural advantage.

Yes, but did those land powers beat the naval power in the naval war? Did Russia in that war destroy the Swedish or Ottoman navies and win most of the naval battles? In the case of the Imjin War, I don’t that counts since the land power lost almost all naval battles and lost the war at sea.

 

[RGB]

Yes, but did those land powers beat the naval power in the naval war? Did Russia in that war destroy the Swedish or Ottoman navies and win most of the naval battles?

Yeah, absolutely. Russia vs. Sweden was fairly give and take, losses and wins on both sides, but vs. the Ottomans it's very one-sided. A brand-new navy won over an established sea power and kept winning pretty much every engagement ever since.

 

[Tonifranz]

Yeah, absolutely. Russia vs. Sweden was fairly give and take, losses and wins on both sides, but vs. the Ottomans it's very one-sided. A brand-new navy won over an established sea power and kept winning pretty much every engagement ever since.

Okay. That was what I was looking for. Thanks. The situation of course is rare so that’s why I asked.

 

[RGB]

Okay. That was what I was looking for. Thanks. The situation of course is rare so that’s why I asked.

Potentially the end phase of the Pelloponessian war could count too. The Spartan navy was brand new when it managed to break the Thalassocracy.

 

[Tonifranz]

Potentially the end phase of the Pelloponessian war could count too. The Spartan navy was brand new when it managed to break the Thalassocracy.

Of course! How could I forget! The Spartans were no naval power but they won the decisive battle at sea which ended the war.

 

[trurle]

The First Punic War is the only War I know where, considering their positions before the war started, a predominantly land power with virtuall no navy or naval traditions beat a predominantly sea power at sea and win the decisive battle of the war at sea and also wins most battles of the sea too.

It would be like Nazi Germany despite starting the war with an utterly inferior navy wins all but two naval battles against Britain and winning the decisive naval battle forcing Britain to sue for peace.

Question. Is there any other war where the land power with virtually no navy before the beginning of the war beats the sea power of the age in the war at sea? Could such a war happen during the Middle Ages or in the Age of Sail?

Russia beating Sweden and the Ottomans in the various wars after the navy was built from scratch, insofar that either of those were naval powers themselves.

Marginal examples: Japan (almost) beating Korea in the Imjin war? Conversely, the Ming beating Japan in the Imjin war. Japan's brand-new steam navy beating both the Qing and Russia might just count too. Maybe Austria beating Italy like at Lissa (open question if Italy counts)?

Minamoto beating the Taira in the Genpei war, potentially. England overcoming the French and Spanish navies in the HYW, as ironic as it might be for large islands to be classed as "land powers.'

Generally speaking though "naval powers" depend on having a large population of sailors available and a reason to maintain a well-practiced navy, giving it major structural advantage. It's not something that you can just will into existence, a few exceptions aside.

I would add Greek war of independence in 19th century. The Greek rebels successfully utilized fire ships to negate the qualitative and numerical advantage of Ottoman Navy.

 

[wcv215]

Of course! How could I forget! The Spartans were no naval power but they won the decisive battle at sea which ended the war.

They caught the Athenian fleet on the beach, possibly by treachery.

 

[Avrorrange]

The last phase of the Yuan-Song War. In the previous two wars against the Song Dynasty,the Mongol invasions were all repulsed as a result of Song mastery of riverine naval warfare. In the last phase of the war,the Mongols built their own navy with the help of Song defectors and repeatedly wiped out Song riverine fleets,even winning the final battle in open sea.

The Qing invasion of Taiwan also counts.

Others include the Battle of the Masts where the Arabs crushed the East Roman navy.

 

[Circonflexe]

And let's not forget the capture of the Dutch fleet by French cavalry, of course.

 

[Byzantine fanatic]

And let's not forget the capture of the Dutch fleet by French cavalry, of course.

Fantastic example. That has to be one of the worst naval disasters of all time. Poor Dutch fleet. Lol

 

[Koprulu Mustafa Pasha]

Yes, but did those land powers beat the naval power in the naval war? Did Russia in that war destroy the Swedish or Ottoman navies and win most of the naval battles? In the case of the Imjin War, I don’t that counts since the land power lost almost all naval battles and lost the war at sea.

Battle of Çeşme is seen as such battle in which a Russian expedition fleet caught the Ottomans by surprise on the Anatolian Coast of the Aegean Sea and burned it.

 

[Koprulu Mustafa Pasha]

Ottomans beating Venice in the 15h century

 

[ByzantineLover]

The Romans defeating the Carthaginians during the First Punic War, partly by copying Carthaginian ship designs and inventing the corvus.

 

[Byzantine fanatic]

... partly by copying Carthaginian ship designs and inventing the corvus.

Reminds me of the Byzantines defeating the Arabs at Constantinople with Greek fire ships.

 

[Captain Seafort]

While the French were no pushovers at sea at the time, the Battle of the Chesapeake should count.

 

[KnightofTempest]

The First Punic War is the only War I know where, considering their positions before the war started, a predominantly land power with virtuall no navy or naval traditions beat a predominantly sea power at sea and win the decisive battle of the war at sea and also wins most battles of the sea too.

It would be like Nazi Germany despite starting the war with an utterly inferior navy wins all but two naval battles against Britain and winning the decisive naval battle forcing Britain to sue for peace.

Question. Is there any other war where the land power with virtually no navy before the beginning of the war beats the sea power of the age in the war at sea? Could such a war happen during the Middle Ages or in the Age of Sail?

Russia vs Sweden

Sparta Vs Athens

The Ottomans vs Venice

There's plenty of examples