A History of the Oungrikos Dynasty of Roman Emperors: The Six Emperors – 1180 to 1330

did he get Crowned by the ecoumenical patriarch of constantinople?

you could write Rhomania(the o is not a long one),also , oi(the)Ouggroi(hungarian) Autokratores(emperors) or oi(the ) magyari(hungarian)autokratores(emperors) is perhaps better

does he support integration into the Orthodox Catholic church(eastern rite) or the Roman Catholic Church(western rite)

were they christianised in the orthodox catholic rite or the roman catholic rite?

well it seems an orthodox hungary will become a thing or at least some reform of religious tolerance will be made in the future
honestly if Rhomania becomes a great power,the reformers that appeared in the reformation migth be influenced a great deal by orthodoxy

is she catholic or orthodox ?she migth influence how Nestorianism develops

also about the reformation,orthodoxy has underwent the iconoclasm and while it is rigid in some part,it allows room for interpretation,i hope there is no orthodox reformation

Answers to you're questions:

1) Yes I can't imagine the Emperor of the Romans being crowned any other way at this time. The other other person it would've been is the Pope but that would be unthinkable to the Greeks. If he wanted the Empire he had to be crown in an Orthodox ceremony. Bare in mind much of Hungary was Orthodox in the south and east, especially in Transylvania. It would be easier to integrate Hungary into the Orthodox sphere than the other way round imo.

2) I think during the Ouggroi Era the Latin (Unionite) Rite and Byzantine Rite would both be permitted under the Emperor as head of the Church in the Empire. He'd reconcile both as much as possible. Official the Byzantine Rite would dominate but Unionites in line with Rome would be recognised. A key aspect of the Roman Empire is it made sure religion did interfere too much with the stability of the realm. The Empire itself was of the highest priority to which the Church was an accessory.

2b) To answer you're point on the Orthodoxing of Hungary. At a higher level it will occur and accelerate in the mid-late 1200s, as a result of increasing consolidation efforts following the Mongol invasions, the War with Bohemia and numerous rebellions especially in tandem with the latter conflict. Many new nobles and governors would be sent north by Stephanos and Marios from the capital and would be Orthodox more often than not. Can't really predict much further than that at this time.

3) Maria is Orthodox I'd say. A memeber of the first generation of fully Orthodox Ouggroi along with her brother Stephanos who would be Emperor of Rhomania after 1270. She of course would know of and been exposed to Latin Christian religion too. I think she herself wouldn't wield enough power over the Mongols to push the Ilkhans towards Orthodoxy when they already had a tradition of Nestorianism. A competent missionary who is playing the game well and acquiring allies would work on reconciling whats there with her own ideas.

MOK's game plan during her time in Persia is to strengthen the line of Abaqa to ensure a stable line of succession from father to son with the help of allies including Baidu, a friend, confidant and committed Nestorian with a significant amount of influence and power among the clans. They'd of course have many enemies including Muslim sympathisers but also the support of Rhomania, Religious minorities and some regions. I reckon Northern Iran, the Kurds, Lurs and Yazd Province would be amenable to their agenda....
 
Probably will open another thread to discuss the practicality of evangelising post-Ilkhanate Iran to the Church of the East!
 
Timeline
Here we go again...

The Reign of Stephanos I

1270-71: A Prelude


Stephanos I inherited both the Roman Empire and Hungary from his father and intended to rule from Constantinople. Having spent most of his life in the Empire's Greek lands he was throughly Hellenised and professed to the Byzantine (Melkite) Rite of Othordoxy. By the time his reign began the Eastern frontier of the Empire had stabilised. His sister, Maria, was married to the Ilkhan and influential in directing the spritual and political priorities of the state. The two powers were effectively amicable partners and allies.

In the West however, the faltering of Alexios V's plans to grant Hungary to his late younger son Bela meant Hungary was once again growing increasingly complacent under the rule of distant Constantinople and the Hungarian nobility was increasingly divided between two faction, a pro-Roman faction of Hellenised nobles and a Nativist faction with Latin leanings. Knowledge of the discord in Hungary spread beyond the Empire into the neighbouring HRE where a Bohemian King was keen to exploit the oppertunity he saw for his own ends.

Ottokar II of Bohemia had ambitions to become the Holy Roman Emperor. He had been pursuing his goals through military means for over a decade aqquiring lands south of Bohemia in Austria and Styria and his domains now reached the Adriatic Sea. His methods though had alienated the other Electors of the HRE and there was a threat of other pretenders to the Imperial Crown gaining greater favour. In an effort to increase his powerbase during 1271 he made promising overtures to the Hungarian Nativists promising to support their cause for autonomy in return for military support in the HRE.

1272- Hungarian rebels rise up and march on Buda. Ottokar sends his forces to join their coup. This constitutes an act of war against Stephanos. The Emperor in Constantinople, when word reaches him, mobilises his tagmata and marches north to recapture the city. Many loyal nobles of the Roman faction are forced to flee the capital region of Hungary and some manage to raise levies from their estates to defend the lands north of Sirmium forward of Stephanos's approaching army.

The mostly Orthodox magnates of Southern and Eastern Hungary are able to raise a cohesive force to consolidate their lands and harrass the rebels. They manage to gain information on Ottokar's army marching through Western Hungary.

1273- Stephanos lays seige to Buda with trebuchets and is able to retake the city. He finally, after months of skrimishes manages to meet Ottokar at Pressburg but the Bohemian army is ordered to retreat from Hungary. The Romans and Bohemians make a peace. It is assumed that Ottokar had been wavering in his support for the coup, one that potentially would've put him on the throne of Hungary, due to how badly it went after the fall of Buda. Many Nativist nobles were killed in the rebellion and Hungary would now experience a period of increased Hellenic Othordox influence as officals are sent north from Constantinople to oversee the reconstuction of Hungary after the rebellion.

1278- Ottokar II is finally defeated at the Battle of Marchfield by the army of Rudolf von Hapsburg, the elected Holy Roman Emperor who had deprived Ottokar of all his non-Bohemian lands. The Hapsburg force was assisted by a Roman force sent by Stephanos.

1285- A second large invasion of Hungary by the Mongols occurs and though destructive is not nearly on the scale of the 1241 invasion. Roman military tactics during the intermittant period had greatly improved to counter nomad horseback armies effectively. A second reconstruction program is started and the process of cultural shift continues. Melkite Othordoxy is increasing in Hungary and Greeks are the main source of settlers for repopulation of the countryside.

The administration of Hungary at this time has been centralised with an appointed Palatine to act as a representative of the Emperor and was either a Roman or Roman-aligned during the later Oungrikos period.

1290- After 20 years on the throne, Stephanos dies, leaving the Empire wholly to his son Marios. He reign was marked overall by the acceleration of the process of Hellenisation in Hungary and overall stabilty and properity across the rest of the Empire.
 
Twas a short one today. Thinking about the timeline I've been jumping ahead a lot to more exciting events of later centuries. I figured I'd just run through Stephanos's reign quickly. Marios has some interesting problems to deal with I'll take a look at next but overall his reign too has many of the same themes.
 
I'm following and Liking this. I had some vague hope of a reconciliation between the Eastern and Western rites, but that really had little basis; Hungary, insofar as it remained unified with Constantinople on any terms, would indeed be most likely to shift toward Eastern Orthodoxy. Given that, it seems the best case for both Empire and Hungary as a portion of the Empire to be under a single Imperial crown rather than the spin-off toward a younger brother cadet line the earlier Emperor wanted, so it is just as well this came to nothing. I presume the Dalmatian coast is thus firmly under the "Rhomanian" imperial scepter?

(I am not sure by the way whether "Rhomanian" is any less artificial an OTL modern neologism than "Byzantine," which I am more comfortable with, but I do realize the latter has perjorative and offensive aspects from the point of view of the loyal subjects and rulers in Constantinople, who did not take kindly to being called "Greeks" either despite their deep Hellenization--they were "the Romans" to themselves pure and simple, and the fact they didn't rule the city of Rome itself nor control the Roman Pope was something that irritated them and that they'd contemplate rectifying forcibly if they judged themselves strong enough in Italy to do so. We say "Rhomanian" with an h today to distinguish from modern Romania, and because it seems weirder and more confusing to us to notice that Rome the city is on alien and hostile territory to them so we boggle at saying "Roman" and being done with it. There is no pleasing everyone, I know "Byzantine" is to take their Latin foes' side, so I guess I am stuck with "Rhomanian." Can we shuffle the linguistic deck again and say "Rhoman?" I'm going to try that and see if I get shot down in flames for it!)

Dalmatia might be problematic if the Italian-dialect speaking citizens of the various merchant city states there happen to lean strongly toward Rome in religious rite, so that pressure to align with Rhoman orthodoxy (hmm, that's problematic, but I'll keep rolling with it) does not result in simple compliance with some grumbling. Of course it has already been remarked that the pragmatic and politic ruling dynasty subordinates ideological and sectarian neatness to interests of state, and so it is always possible for Rhoman policy to shelter a minority of subject territories that still look to the Roman Papacy, or for that matter on paper anyway some third rite could also be tolerated. (In fact, while I gather Rhoman policy hitherto has worked to uproot and expel Islamic influences, that too could be revised and the Orthodox Emperor of whatever dynasty tolerate ongoing Muslim practice in some regions, in the future if not yet). Both though have the obvious problem; probably it is wrong in any era whatsoever to totally discount sectarian religiousity as a relevant political factor, and certainly in this age it is a major one. Latin rite subjects of "Rhome," and Muslim ones, will in fact have a real tendency to turn toward alien political patronage and form a dangerous political fault line these exterior foes can try to exploit. "Tendency" means that by no means is a Roman Catholic or Muslim who is nevertheless perfectly loyal to Constantinople, and active and zealous in upholding the Eastern Empire, a contradiction; they can easily be the majority and actively assist in rooting out and dealing with the traitors among themselves. But it certainly puts a cloud of doubt over all of them, and that cloud will tend to veer Imperial policy against trusting them, which will feed back in eroding the loyalty of such subjects. Generations and centuries of proven loyalty, and the Rhoman system being a strong one which makes it advantageous to adhere to, and even attracts factions outside the border to seek Imperial favor rather than strive to undermine it, could dispel such doubts...but I would think, again considering that sectarian religious identity has secular and political aspects, that such citizens would tend to convert to the ruling orthodoxy after all, which would eliminate all (well most, ask after the fate of the Spanish subjects who converted from Judaism and Islam to see how doubt and persecution can still continue!) the division.

But it is not clear to me where Dalmatian citizens stood in the East-West split around this time anyway. I am following another TL that focuses on Hungary and Dalmatia in this period on quite a different tack (this Hungary is firmly on the Latin side, as is the strengthened Dalmatian confederation under that Magyar dynasty, and I wonder whether that version of Hungary shall succeed sooner or later in taking the Western Holy Roman Imperial crown and thus projecting the Latin rite farther east and south--at this point in the TL "Rhome" is still standing pretty strong and of course on OTL time scales direct confrontation with strong Islamic powers is still centuries in the future). In that TL, it seems at least the northern tier of Dalmatian cities are quite Latin in rite, but the author might be glossing over ambiguities or I might have failed to take proper note of them.

I seem to recall that OTL, prior to the 13th century we are now well into, even Venice despite its proximity to Latin power bases, veered Orthodox, due to the city early on becoming an exarchate of Rhoman power and later, when that power ebbed but remained strong, seeking favor with it for the sake of trade opportunities in the Rhoman sphere. Under these ATL circumstances, perhaps Venice too plays both sides off against each other and remains ambiguous? If so, the entire Adriatic coast, its Italianized trading towns, from Greece all the way into Venice, is in play. Given that Ottokar was said to have holdings "reaching to the Adriatic" prior to his failed bid to seize Hungary, I don't know if that refers to Italian towns on the northwestern Adriatic but south of Venice, having the temporary overlordship of Venice itself, or reaching east further some claims on the northern Adriatic reaching into Istria, perhaps Trieste. Again I'd think somewhere south of Venice's own holdings, perhaps the next rival power to the south, sectarian allegiance goes firmly to Rome, but then again possibly some city states scattered all down the Italian coast of the Adriatic lean toward Constantinople too, both as relics of a stronger Rhoman presence earlier and current vested interests in access to Rhoman trade.

It does seem that "Styria," whatever exactly that means in this age, would be firmly Latin, and so on up to Vienna. So, basically the Crown of St Stephen, perhaps now annexing Trieste, perhaps with Trieste being the southeastern salient of Latin allegiance, but Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Serbia as well as coastal Dalmatia, is going firmly Orthodox, a process accelerated by the Latin-partisan dissidents outing themselves and being undercut, discredited, executed, exiled or forced to profess conversion, consolidating all these realms firmly into the Orthodox sphere. Going northward, the line dividing the spheres will follow the Austrian-Hungarian border and Slovakia, as OTL, included on the Orthodox side. Thus greater Hungary, an increasingly Orthodox bulwark, incorporating Slovakia, reaches up to Bohemia-Moravia proper, which is firmly Latin rite, and thence I suppose the border runs along the OTL Slovak-Polish border more or less.

Now here's a thought.

I was greatly puzzled by this:

1285- A second large invasion of Hungary by the Mongols occurs and though destructive is not nearly on the scale of the 1241 invasion. Roman military tactics during the intermittant period had greatly improved to counter nomad horseback armies effectively. A second reconstruction program is started and the process of cultural shift continues. Melkite Othordoxy is increasing in Hungary and Greeks are the main source of settlers for repopulation of the countryside.

So hang on, I thought an accord with the Ilkhanate had been reached. I infer that "Ilkhanate" refers to a portion of the Mongols who are splintering into successor realms, and this Mongol invasion comes from another bunch of Mongols who are I suppose based in Ukraine and Russia further north, and have come to a political parting of the ways with their Ilkhanate cousins to the south. I would guess the division lies between the Black Sea and Caspian somewhere, the Ilkhan holding whatever is not under firm Rhoman control south of that line--IIRC, unless I am mixing up other TLs, Rhome holds the Crimean peninsula and is of course the supreme naval power by far on the Black Sea, and of course holds Thrace and into and perhaps beyond OTL modern Bulgaria--at what point on the west coast of the Black sea Imperial power fails is not clear to me, but I gather that whatever lies beyond, over to the narrow isthmus the Empire holds to secure the Crimea, is northern Mongol more or less, and we might say, Russian shading into Baltic--that is, Estonian-Finnish, Latvian and Lithuanian and Polish.

At this early date, both branches of the legacy of Genghis Khan's conquests are neither Christian nor Muslim; their empires each have a certain tolerance for many rites, but we are told the Ilkhans were leaning Nestorian Christian before the current Emperor's sister married into the Khan's family and perhaps has been tweaking either a shift to full Orthodoxy or a possible sectarian detente welcoming in the Nestorians.

Now, given the salience of religion in politics and that the northern Mongols probably find it expedient to discredit and contradict their Ilkhan cousins at every opportunity, the better to shore up their own claims for supremacy, I think it might not be strange if, before the Mongol system breaks down in Russia, for the northern faction to lean toward Latin rite missionaries just to spite their southern rivals. Kiev had already gone Orthodox of course, but perhaps under ruthless enough Mongol rule, even Ukraine might be converted. A more likely course I think is that this conversion happens with fewer hitches in the farther north, the White Sea and Novgorod and Muscovite Russians Romanize fast and thoroughly, while the prior layer of Eastern rite orthodoxy in Kievian Rus might make the populace resistant and form a rallying cry for anti-Mongol resistance. If Rhom exploits this, we could conceivably have either a series or single Kievian-Ukranian client state fostered by Rhoman power on the Black Sea and with Ilkhanate connivance, or possibly annexation of much of south Ukraine and the Volga mouth feeding in to the Black Sea region annexed outright as themes of the Empire, closing the loop of Rhoman hegemony around the Black Sea by joining up to the Georgian client state in the Caucasus.

In reaction to this, North Mongol flirtation with the Latin Rite could well solidify, leading to baptism of a Mongol dynasty into the Roman Catholic church. In the longer run, this means that the line dividing Slavic peoples between Orthodox and Catholic spheres runs more east-west and divides them north and south, leaving Czechs, Moravians, various minorities such as the Sorbs absorbed into German and other Slavic identities OTL, the Poles, Lithuanians and Latvians united with the northern Russians of OTL. It is actually my impression that OTL, were it not for the sharp confessional division clearly separating Poles from Russians, this divide would be much more soft and ambiguous--that Polish and Russian as languages for instance are fairly close to one another. Fusing everything north of Rhoman grip out of the Black Sea and Hungary into the Latin sphere would leave the non-Ukrainian Rus identity as appearing to be a branch of Polish, or vice versa.

Meanwhile aside from a foundational conflict with their Orthodox cousins to the south under Rhoman protection, or even subsumed into the empire directly, to the west the Poles face Germans and Czechs, and to the north across the Baltic, the various realms of Scandinavia. The fate of the Finns is unclear to me, whether they would form another nation, or be subjugated in the same category as the Sami by Swedes, Russians, Hanseatic Germans or all three.

What happens after that depends on whether the Hungarian dynasty lays foundations for indefinite survival of the Eastern Empire. I see the core of this empire being Anatolia and the Balkans, plus the entire shoreline of the Black Sea--Hungary itself secures most of the length of the Danube and surrounding valley to the Carpathian mountains I suppose. We have the Caucasian bulwark as a client kingdom, currently Georgia, and that leaves the northern shore of the Black Sea as a soft zone that the Empire must pour some resources into because it has little natural defense against steppe nomad waves. But I think if that imperial core can be sustained it provides enough wealth and manpower to keep aiding this zone, whether as a client kingdom or set of them or as outright provinces, and the flip side of making that effort is that Ukraine so defined and extended east (possibly being of less extent northward) is itself, if defended, a rich set of territories to contribute to overall Imperial strength. Such an empire, if it avoids going into severe political tailspins, can probably hold. Latin Europe, instead of being threatened by an expansive Ottoman type Islamic empire, instead faces an Orthodox empire. This may serve to define an apparently Hapsburg HRE much as the defense against the Ottomans shaped the Austrian Hapsburg empire OTL.

It is up in the air whether the Rhoman core can buff itself up by holding any of Mesopotamia, the Levant, Egypt, or the Maghreb. By this date, north Africa west of Egypt itself is Islamic, Egypt teeters on the edge of its Coptic population converting, the Levant is mostly Islamic but also home to a great many sectarian heterodoxies (due to its highlands offering many bastions). The Crusader kingdoms have been at least partially saved already, and by Rhoman efforts backstopping the "Frankish" Latin Crusaders. Note that OTL, the Latins were keen to eliminate Constantinople's influence despite the fact that it was a pact between the Popes and the Eastern Empire that prompted the First Crusade in the first place. The Venetian backed conquest of Constantinople and Latin Empire have been butterflied away for the moment anyway, but the allegiance of the Crusader realms of "Outremer" is not entirely clear here; they need Rhoman power, this we know from OTL, but any realms run by Latin-leaning lords might not fully realize that. Or the manner in which the Rhomans have taken charge might be proof against Latin subversion, perhaps by luring or forcing conversion to the Eastern rites and loyalties despite the Western origins of the Crusaders.

So for the moment, the Ilkhans are conceded Mesopotamia, and despite their Christianization, I doubt that the Eastern Empire will ever be able to hold that territory on a lasting basis. The Mongol rulers might be Christian in a rite that anyway is allied to the Rhoman one, but the populace they rule is probably going to be slow to convert. In the Levant however, there is so much heterodoxy I guess an astute Imperial policy can keep the upper hand there, if not by direct rule than by a suitable mix of client states.

If the Empire can hold the Levant and Egypt, or even just one of these, in future generations it can power project via the Red Sea into the Indian Ocean. Otherwise, doubting as I do any stable conquest of Mesopotamia, they are confined to the Eastern Med and Black Sea. Which is really quite a lot!

I doubt very much Islam and powerful Islamic states are down for the count. There has been celebration of their discomfiture at this moment, but it won't last. I believe that even if the Ilkhanate seeks to convert its subjects--which is counterindicated for them if they want to survive as political rulers--Islam as a folk religion will persist in Persia, Mesopotamia, Arabia and northern Africa. And probably in the Steppes of central Asia and spread into India and Nusantara as OTL, while advancing in Africa. It may be that the relationship between the Sunni and Shia are reversed--the latter I believe are better set up to survive as a dissident more or less persecuted population out of step with the religious fashions dominating the central government, and might therefore be positioned to dominate Islamic orthodoxy once the Ilkhans falter or the Rhomans lose control of some major tract. Arabia itself will be difficult to control and Mecca remains the center of world Islam. I expect a major Islamic revival in the region of Persia, Afghanistan, perhaps Central Asia and almost certainly Mesopotamia to link up to its stubborn persistence in Arabia and in the Saharan peoples.

And of course the author may fully intend that the Hungarian dynasty is not going to guarantee the permanent survival of the Empire; it buys it a few centuries more of great power perhaps, but perhaps it is inevitable the Empire must go to pot sooner or later, and if it does, losing Anatolia again for instance, its further days may be numbered. I'd think the boundary between Orthodox and Latin spheres established here will tend to persist even if the Orthodox sphere suffers major weakening but perhaps some belated version of the OTL Ottomans will take Constantinople itself, which would leave the southern Rus tier and Hungary to quarrel over who hosts the Third Rome--not Moscow! Moscow would be in the Latin Russian zone.
 
Thanks for you're long and thoughtful post Shevek23! I'll probably tackle this in parts since its rather long.

I presume the Dalmatian coast is thus firmly under the "Rhomanian" imperial scepter?

Assume were are discussing the status of the Empire in 1290 from here. I would say that yes Dalmatia is likely to lean officially Rhoman rather than Hungarian explicitly so I'll assume that though tbf the Venetians have the ports on lease effectively since they more often than not are the ones using them. For as long as Venice stays in the favour of the Emperor they'll be okay to keep custody of them. As such some elements of Dalmatian administration will be influenced by Greek and Serb Orthodox influences, they'd definitely have a presence. It's worth remembering the Bosnian Church nearby, a Gnostic-Bologamist type church which could also influence what may become out of necessity a melting pot of a region. The tensitive nature of Latin-Orthodox interactions means these Christians avoided greater pressure to convert because it wasn't clear what they should be converting to!

I think moving onto you're later section on Dalmatia, later down the line you've got political factors in Italy coming into play and these are influenced by rivalries between Western European powers and the Papacy. Conflicts between France, the HRE and Papacy could work in Rhoman favour at least defensively in its interests in the Adriatic. Venice and other merchant republics I thought of as owing first loyalty to the bottom line (that is trade and profit) and forgoing obsessions with sectarian issues if it cut them off from markets. The main market in this ATL, the overwhelming kingmaker in the Eastern Med is Rhomania. It's not that Venice will flip Orthodox itself, I think it's geography as a part of Catholic Italy will keep the city Latin at heart. However it'll avoid jeopardising it's relations with the ERE if it knows what's good for it...

(I am not sure by the way whether "Rhomanian" is any less artificial an OTL modern neologism than "Byzantine," which I am more comfortable with, but I do realize the latter has perjorative and offensive aspects from the point of view of the loyal subjects and rulers in Constantinople, who did not take kindly to being called "Greeks" either despite their deep Hellenization--they were "the Romans" to themselves pure and simple, and the fact they didn't rule the city of Rome itself nor control the Roman Pope was something that irritated them and that they'd contemplate rectifying forcibly if they judged themselves strong enough in Italy to do so. We say "Rhomanian" with an h today to distinguish from modern Romania, and because it seems weirder and more confusing to us to notice that Rome the city is on alien and hostile territory to them so we boggle at saying "Roman" and being done with it. There is no pleasing everyone, I know "Byzantine" is to take their Latin foes' side, so I guess I am stuck with "Rhomanian." Can we shuffle the linguistic deck again and say "Rhoman?" I'm going to try that and see if I get shot down in flames for it!)

For practical purposes I'd suggest Rhoman. It's just shorter and works for our mode of communication! It's also truer to how the Empire's citizens would perceive themselves you're right though they wouldn't have been about regarding themselves as Greek either as far as I know. Greek in language and culture, Rh/Roman as a matter of prestige. These were the realities. Hellenisation seems more accurate a description of the cultural process of assimilation, if not linguistically then religiously and artistically that places like Hungary would experience in this ATL.

I'll come back to this later :)
 
So hang on, I thought an accord with the Ilkhanate had been reached. I infer that "Ilkhanate" refers to a portion of the Mongols who are splintering into successor realms, and this Mongol invasion comes from another bunch of Mongols who are I suppose based in Ukraine and Russia further north, and have come to a political parting of the ways with their Ilkhanate cousins to the south.

Precisely this. The Mongols were breaking up by the 1280s and the Golden Horde of the North was a different entity to the Ilkhanate of Persia. The GH I would've thought would be still Tengrist at this point with a sway towards Islam which would still be influential on the Steppe. The ramifications of events to the south wouldn't have quite reached it yet. The GH would have limited contact with the Latin West I would think and couldn't really rely on the military support of Catholic Kingdoms against Orthodox enemies. On the contrary the Horde had a protectorate relationship with the Russian Principalities at this time and was willing to assist the Russians in wars against Danes and Teutonic Knights... If the Horde leans Christian then it'll either be Orthodox or Nestorian in my view.

I don't think there is any realistic chance that the religious makeup of Russia will be changed by prior events and Moscow will remain Orthodox. It'll be highly likely at some point later in the ATL that Russia and Rhomania ally together against the Poles and reintegrate the Southern Principalities into Russia centuries before OTL. Russia will also be supported against the Central Asian Hordes which may well convert to Orthodoxy along the way. I'm not sure about the Black Sea possessions of Rhomania later down the line. I'm wondering if Rhomania would insist on holding Cherson....

If the Empire can hold the Levant and Egypt, or even just one of these, in future generations it can power project via the Red Sea into the Indian Ocean. Otherwise, doubting as I do any stable conquest of Mesopotamia, they are confined to the Eastern Med and Black Sea. Which is really quite a lot!

I intend to see the ERE survive till the present. I believe the 1180 POD is the latest opportunity we have for a modern day, reasonably powerful Rhomania and one that can co-exist with a fairly familiar Europe. The butterflies of this aren't overwhelming like earlier PODs may well be. I'd also like to see Rhomania hold Egypt and establish trading colonies along the Red Sea, Indian Coasts and maybe as far as Malacca. The Ottomans did manage to project as far and supported the Sultanate of Aceh in the 1560's. The moment Malacca gets seized by Portugal in 1511 (I think) is when Rhoman colonialism gets switched on if it isn't already. The Mamluks were active in India when the Portuguese arrived around 1500. Who knows in this ATL it might be Rhoman interests the Portuguese clash with and maybe as a side effect Venetian interests!

Religiously, I was under the impression that the Levant was only truly Islamised, at least up to the point it is now minus Israel, after the Crusaders were finally defeated by the Mamluks would brought about a period of repression of non-Muslims after 1291. Before that you had many Catholics, Orthodox and Oriental Christians present in the Holy Land. Under the Rhomans these communities would be replenished, certainly after the 1250s. Meanwhile in Egypt the Copts were fairly well tolerated by the Ayyubid sultans and probably made up a large portion of the population. We're talking a plurality. They will be spared the Mamluk regime by the Rhomans and be preserved. Being the hub of trade Egypt is, it would also have a large Christian intake of Greeks, Italians and African Christians from the south who would be brought together by this new political order.

Long term results so far: Orthodox Hungary, Christianised Levant and Egypt, Earlier Russian Expansion, Rhoman and Venetian access to Indian Ocean Trade. Greek will become the lingua franca of the Eastern Mediterranean once again.

Later developments: Probably after the scope of this thread, Rhomania starts looking west to secure Southern Italy and North Africa to consolidate control of the Eastern Med. Rivalry with Spain and Portugal by the 16th century.
 
question i am just wondering will the empire be restored to the size/shape it was during the time of Justinian the first
 
question i am just wondering will the empire be restored to the size/shape it was during the time of Justinian the first
that is quite the ambition,the empire of justinian comprised egypt,tunisia,italy and southern spain,i can see quite the resentment arising form such conquests from the latins("who do the eastern barbarians think they are")furthermore italy is under the aegis of the holy roman empire and the pope, the reconquista is raging in spain and is almost done with last bustion of islam being the kingdom of granada
now as for tunis it would actually be a valid target if Rhomania is able to conquer Egypt,but i dont know the demographics of the region enougth to say if it will favour the muslims or the orthodox
 
Last edited:
that is quite the ambition,the empire of justinian comprised egypt,tunisia,italy and southern spain,i can see quite the resentment arising form such conquests from the latins("who do the eastern barbarians think they are")furthermore italy is under the aegis of the holy roman empire and the pope, the reconquista is raging in spain and is almost done with last bustion of islam being the kingdom of granada
now as for tunis it would actually be a valid target if Rhomania is able to conquer Egypt,but i dont know the demographics of the region enougth to say if it will favour the muslims or the orthodox

My thoughts are that a future Rhomania would stop short of holding the whole of Italy for the simple reason that it's more trouble than it's worth. An empire centred around the Aegean which has Egypt and access to India and the East doesn't need Italy and the problems it brings besides some strategic defensive regions like Sicily and Southern Italy. That plus an effectively dependent Venice locks down the Adriatic, a major gate into the Eastern Med.

I think Tunis is a viable target alongside Sicily, Malta and Naples for creating a Western Chain to protect Rhoman maritime influence further East. These regions will be fought over with Spain though and I suspect Rhomania will be dragged into the Italian Wars and form a convenient alliance with France. Italy looks set to be caught in a struggle between three major powers, not merely two.

I think Rhoman influence in Italy will concern mostly Venice, Ancona, the Kingdom of Naples and Sicily. It'll align with whoever is aligned against Spain. The alliances that included France would likely include the ERE. I can see the Empire doing well out of that stratagem for some while.
 
Last edited:
I wonder if Hungary will become a permanent part of the Eastern Roman Empire after this. They would occupy almost all of the Balkans and maybe take the Romanian territories too. I wonder how likely would the Romans consider launching a crusade against the Golden Horde to assist their Orthodox counterparts in Russia.
 
I wonder if Hungary will become a permanent part of the Eastern Roman Empire after this. They would occupy almost all of the Balkans and maybe take the Romanian territories too. I wonder how likely would the Romans consider launching a crusade against the Golden Horde to assist their Orthodox counterparts in Russia.

I think a full integration of Hungary into the Empire is still a long way off. Major cultural influence yes, but I still think it possible that Rhomania will grow complacent over time and Hungary being located where it is may have its loyalty wander...

What we in OTL call Romania, specifically Wallachia and Moldavia, is in this TL taking the form of Cumania and is more securely under Rhoman control when not being ransacked by Mongols! It's certainly likely that Rhomania will support the Russians in bring the hordes to heel in order to keep its own possessions near the steppe safe. Maybe not in the form of a 'Crusade' but maybe through the support of an Orthodox Military Order???
 
Timeline
Here we go again...

Overview of the Reign of Marios I

Chronological Events of Significance

1295- Marios sends an expeditionary force to the Ilkhanate in 1295 to assist the Ilkhan Ghazan against a powerful Oirat rebellion that threatened to overthrow him. Ghazan triumphs and elevates Christianity to the official religion of the state in a way reminiscent of the conversion of Constantine the Great. Pre-eminence is granted to the Church of the East within the Ilkhante, the High Church of the East has its See established in Tabriz.

General Events
  • The Knight Hospitaller begin to split at this time between the Order of the Knights of Malta and Order of the Knights of Rhodes. The former aligned with Rome and the latter aligned with Constantinople.​
  • These changes bring the Levant and Egypt under greater Rhoman control as the Kingdom of Jerusalem becomes increasingly dependent on the Empire considering a significant part of its defence now owed Rhomania fealty.​
  • The Mamluks continue to exist in Egypt as an institution into the late 1200s. Some are affiliated with Muslim rebels who periodically raid the Nile Valley and Holy Land how during the reign of Marios these are finally suppressed. The Mamluk class of warriors and administrators are reformed. They are recruited from Cuman and Circassian Orthodox Christians and are no longer pressured to convert to Islam.
  • The Varangian Guard continue to exist and are a tagmata regiment based in Constantinople. They are mostly recruited from the Rus in the late 1200s.
  • The Senate still exists as a gathering of ministers and magnates who gather to grant blessings of the Emperor's legislation, including the passage of new taxes and reforms of the bureaucracy. It has taken this form since Andros, however has been called less frequently by his successors and is considered a mere advisory chamber.
  • The Marian Legal Reforms are enacted and among the changes is the mandate of a set order of draconian mutilation based punishments for theft and sexual misbehaviour. These include the amputation of fingers, the left hand, genitals and ultimately decapitation for repeat offenders.
1330 - Marios I dies without issue and the crown must pass to the nearest blood claimant outside the Oungrikos line.

TBC - Some events in Italy may need covering in greater detail. This Timeline has gone on long enough now for others to make guesses how this ERE affects the Europe of the early 1300s! What wars, intrigues and events are likely to be effected Marios' Empire?

Remember: The Balkans, Anatolia, Hungary, 'Cumania', Cherson, Syria, Palestine and Egypt are under the ERE. Georgia-Armenia is an ally. The Kingdom of Jerusalem is a vassal.

Edit: The suppression of the Templars is scratched. The Megas Komnenoi are too!
 
Last edited:
Just a note that I unsure when Marios I should die for sure for narrative purposes. Some interesting characters are knocking around among the Megas/Doukas dynamic in the 1330s and 40s...
 
Just a note that I unsure when Marios I should die for sure for narrative purposes. Some interesting characters are knocking around among the Megas/Doukas dynamic in the 1330s and 40s...
i mean given that the butteflies extend all the way back to 1180, that Konstantinoupolis did not fall,and that Rhomania has kept its dominant position
you can change anything about these characters that you want
 
Top