A Glorious Union or America: the New Sparta

[TheKnightIrish]

Part 3 made up of:

• The Marriage and life in the White House
• The 40th Congress
• The 14th Amendment
• The 14th Amendment Riots and further Proscription (Joint Congressional Committee on Proscription)
• The Southern Economy and the first stirrings of Communalism

will follow within the week. May have to travel for a few days so it could be the start of next week. Hopefully sooner.

 

[TFSmith121]

As always, nicely done ... but:

I think something's missing here:

U.S. President Abraham Lincoln had agreed upon a compromise with the radicals of his own part, though it was obviously objectionable to ??? many Radical Republicans ??? to him. The quick return of states to the fold was balanced against the swingeing disenfranchisement of American citizens...

And the reference to Geary of XII?

Best,

 

[TheKnightIrish]

I think something's missing here:

U.S. President Abraham Lincoln had agreed upon a compromise with the radicals of his own part, though it was obviously objectionable to ??? many Radical Republicans ??? to him. The quick return of states to the fold was balanced against the swingeing disenfranchisement of American citizens...

And the reference to Geary of XII?

Best,

Those Carlotta Uni alumni need to work on their proof reading. I have amended it.

John White Geary was a divisional commander in Williams' XII Corps.

Ah I see I missed the word Corps.

 

[TFSmith121]

Typical...

Those Carlotta Uni alumni need to work on their proof reading. I have amended it.

John White Geary was a divisional commander in Williams' XII Corps.

Ah I see I missed the word Corps.

Typical...blame the copy editors.

What about dear old PU?

Best,

 

[TheKnightIrish]

Typical...blame the copy editors.

What about dear old PU?

Best,

I was thinking about how to approach the African-American reconstruction experience. I think I might tackle it in detail after the 1868 elections alongside looking at the changing ethnic makeup of some states and African-American office holders.

 

[TFSmith121]

The first HBCU could be an interesting way to show and not tell

I was thinking about how to approach the African-American reconstruction experience. I think I might tackle it in detail after the 1868 elections alongside looking at the changing ethnic makeup of some states and African-American office holders.

The first HBCU could be an interesting way to show and not tell; if you don't use it, maybe I will in BROS...




Best,

 

[For Want of a Nail]

Glad to see this TL going again as well. Now give us an update on Prime Minister Forever for a clean sweep.

 

[TheKnightIrish]

The first HBCU could be an interesting way to show and not tell; if you don't use it, maybe I will in BROS...




Best,

Perhaps the Wood-Peckers...?

 

[TFSmith121]

Bushel and a Peck as the fight song?

Perhaps the Wood-Peckers...?

Bushel and a Peck as the fight song?

Best,

 

[Roland Traveler]

Wouldn't it make more sense to hang CSA debt over the States as extra deterrent against future secession rather than nullify it?

 

[ChucK Y]

Wouldn't it make more sense to hang CSA debt over the States as extra deterrent against future secession rather than nullify it?

The rebels had fled or been imprisoned, hung, or expatriated. Hanging the debts onto the States would only put handicaps on the Unionist and freedmen that the government want to succeed.

 

[Roland Traveler]

The rebels had fled or been imprisoned, hung, or expatriated. Hanging the debts onto the States would only put handicaps on the Unionist and freedmen that the government want to succeed.

I meant using an amendment where any state that tried to secede would be forced to pay Confederate debt. I believe that was used OTL, but I could be wrong.

 

[Zioneer]

Well, after a week of reading, I finally finished this. Wow. Just wow. Incredibly detailed, far-reaching, and well-written. Even though I'm not a fan of Civil War battles, I liked it! I've got a couple of Civil War veterans as ancestors, so it's interesting to imagine what alt-battles they may have been involved in.

Also, I'm glad that someone else brought up the Mormons; for one thing, I'm one, so I like seeing them mentioned, and for another in OTL they were one of the major issues in the 1870s and 1880s. Polygamy was a major political issue around that time.

I'm not an expert on that time period, but if you want some general answers, I might be able to help with Mormon-related questions. There's a couple of other Mormons on the board, Mikestone8 being one of them, but most don't post much.

 

[Admiral Matt]

I would, but I have no idea where to start.

Neither did I until I searched for that photo.

How did I manage it? I googled "how to use google image search".

 

[TheKnightIrish]

Wouldn't it make more sense to hang CSA debt over the States as extra deterrent against future secession rather than nullify it?

The rebels had fled or been imprisoned, hung, or expatriated. Hanging the debts onto the States would only put handicaps on the Unionist and freedmen that the government want to succeed.

I meant using an amendment where any state that tried to secede would be forced to pay Confederate debt. I believe that was used OTL, but I could be wrong.

Repudiating debt is an important flag that the Government does not/did not recognize the Confederate States and anyone who loaned it (or its constituent parts) money did so at their own risk. "Lend to rebels - loose your money".

To recognize the debt as legitimately due is to recognize the entity that contracted for the debt. The US government is never going to acknowledge the Confederate States or its state governments had any legitimate legal existence.

Well, after a week of reading, I finally finished this. Wow. Just wow. Incredibly detailed, far-reaching, and well-written. Even though I'm not a fan of Civil War battles, I liked it! I've got a couple of Civil War veterans as ancestors, so it's interesting to imagine what alt-battles they may have been involved in.

Also, I'm glad that someone else brought up the Mormons; for one thing, I'm one, so I like seeing them mentioned, and for another in OTL they were one of the major issues in the 1870s and 1880s. Polygamy was a major political issue around that time.

I'm not an expert on that time period, but if you want some general answers, I might be able to help with Mormon-related questions. There's a couple of other Mormons on the board, Mikestone8 being one of them, but most don't post much.

If you know their regiments I'll give you some idea where they may have fought in TTL.

So far the 1862 Morrill Anti-Bigamy Act was passed before the POD. At the moment I have some long term ideas for the Mormons. It won't be obvious but I will start laying the ground work for developments which will significantly affect them in the next post...

 

[Zioneer]

Repudiating debt is an important flag that the Government does not/did not recognize the Confederate States and anyone who loaned it (or its constituent parts) money did so at their own risk. "Lend to rebels - loose your money".

To recognize the debt as legitimately due is to recognize the entity that contracted for the debt. The US government is never going to acknowledge the Confederate States or its state governments had any legitimate legal existence.



If you know their regiments I'll give you some idea where they may have fought in TTL.

So far the 1862 Morrill Anti-Bigamy Act was passed before the POD. At the moment I have some long term ideas for the Mormons. It won't be obvious but I will start laying the ground work for developments which will significantly affect them in the next post...

I've got three Civil War Ancestors, one who served in the 7th Missouri State Cavalry Militia, one who probably served in the 4th Ohio Infantry, and one who briefly served in the 12th US Infantry for two months before claiming terminal typhoid fever, dropping out of the army, and proceeding to live nearly 50 years after his claim.

As for the Mormons, excellent. I'll look forward to it. Incidentally, Utah had a single small regiment in the Civil War, if I recall, used only to protect the mail lines to California. I don't believe they saw any action, and wouldn't be affected by your PoD.

 

[TheKnightIrish]

I've got three Civil War Ancestors, one who served in the 7th Missouri State Cavalry Militia, one who probably served in the 4th Ohio Infantry, and one who briefly served in the 12th US Infantry for two months before claiming terminal typhoid fever, dropping out of the army, and proceeding to live nearly 50 years after his claim.

As for the Mormons, excellent. I'll look forward to it. Incidentally, Utah had a single small regiment in the Civil War, if I recall, used only to protect the mail lines to California. I don't believe they saw any action, and wouldn't be affected by your PoD.

Well unfortunately your ancestor in the 7th Missouri State Cavalry Militia would have ridden under the terror that was Brigadier General John McNeil. McNeil, under Schofield and then Ben Butler. He was largely responsible for the anti-guerrilla weeps through Northern Missouri. Had your ancestor survived to be mustered out in 1864 he would have left under the regimental command of Col. John F. Philips and the brief area command (Missouri and Kansas) of Major General Isaac Stevens (before he decamped to Europe on leave with General Kearny).

As for the one in the 4th Ohio he missed the Battle of the Rappahannock in TTL. After the battle and Kearny's appointment to command the Army of the Potomac they were reassigned to bolster would have been in the II Division of XIth Corps under von Steinwehr. They would miss the fun along the Rapidan by garrisoning the Valley in the fall of 62. However they would be in the thick of it at Trevilian Station (by this time the divisional commander Milroy has been replaced by Devens). Of the three divisions in the XI your ancestor's got off the lightest.

At Ashland the II Division would follow the I under Barlow but again not see the worst of it.

They played a significant part in Kearny's feint at Richmond. After Richmond Max Webber would take over command of the division from Devens who reverted to brigade command. The biggest day in their life might have been the third day at Gettysburg. If he survived Meade's uphill charge at Wolf Hill as part of Devens Brigade he was a very lucky boy. As a result of this beasting they mostly sat on the Trevanion Road at Union Mills/Pipe Creek...

XI took a holiday garrisoning Virginia under Sedgwick in which role they would see out the war no doubt to their delight...

12th United States Infantry - I don't suppose you know when his short stint occurred? His service might be butterflied into another regiment after the POD.

 

[TheKnightIrish]

My dear xximagex. I know I have queries from you to update. I will do so in the next couple of days before doing the last part of the Domestic Chapter.

 

[Zioneer]

Well unfortunately your ancestor in the 7th Missouri State Cavalry Militia would have ridden under the terror that was Brigadier General John McNeil. McNeil, under Schofield and then Ben Butler. He was largely responsible for the anti-guerrilla weeps through Northern Missouri. Had your ancestor survived to be mustered out in 1864 he would have left under the regimental command of Col. John F. Philips and the brief area command (Missouri and Kansas) of Major General Isaac Stevens (before he decamped to Europe on leave with General Kearny).

As for the one in the 4th Ohio he missed the Battle of the Rappahannock in TTL. After the battle and Kearny's appointment to command the Army of the Potomac they were reassigned to bolster would have been in the II Division of XIth Corps under von Steinwehr. They would miss the fun along the Rapidan by garrisoning the Valley in the fall of 62. However they would be in the thick of it at Trevilian Station (by this time the divisional commander Milroy has been replaced by Devens). Of the three divisions in the XI your ancestor's got off the lightest.

At Ashland the II Division would follow the I under Barlow but again not see the worst of it.

They played a significant part in Kearny's feint at Richmond. After Richmond Max Webber would take over command of the division from Devens who reverted to brigade command. The biggest day in their life might have been the third day at Gettysburg. If he survived Meade's uphill charge at Wolf Hill as part of Devens Brigade he was a very lucky boy. As a result of this beasting they mostly sat on the Trevanion Road at Union Mills/Pipe Creek...

XI took a holiday garrisoning Virginia under Sedgwick in which role they would see out the war no doubt to their delight...

12th United States Infantry - I don't suppose you know when his short stint occurred? His service might be butterflied into another regiment after the POD.

As far as I can tell, all my Civil War ancestors survived to the wars end in OTL.

The Missouri one served during the entire war as far as I can tell. There's no record that I've found of him or his regiment mustering out until 1865. Lived until 1910, and took part in two different Battles of Independence, Missouri, which is ironically where the Mormons used to be in Missouri. He remained a private throughout his service.

The Ohio 4th Infantry guy serves from May 1861 to Dec 1862, becoming a corporeal at some point before going on leave, He then may have re-enlisted in July 1863, enlisting in the 174th Ohio Infantry until the end of the war. Though I'm not sure that's the same guy. In 1862, he has a kid in between enlistments if he's that guy, with an unknown mother (a "lady of the evening", perhaps), a kid who ends up being my 2nd great-grandfather. Dies in 1883.

The 12th United States Infantry guy... He enrolls sometime in January 1862, then musters out in June of 1862. His pension record notes he was mustered/allowed out due to "General Disability of 3 months duration following Typhoid Fever, no prospect of recovery.", certified by an army doctor. The same pension, issued in 1907, also notes that there's no evidence of him being reported sick on any army rolls. So I'm a little suspicious of his "no prospect of recovery" fever.

I don't know what division the 12th Infantry guy was (his pension doesn't say), but he was in a Company B under a Captain Fred C Winthrope. He also happened to be originally French-Canadian.

 

[TheKnightIrish]

As far as I can tell, all my Civil War ancestors survived to the wars end in OTL.

The Missouri one served during the entire war as far as I can tell. There's no record that I've found of him or his regiment mustering out until 1865. Lived until 1910, and took part in two different Battles of Independence, Missouri, which is ironically where the Mormons used to be in Missouri. He remained a private throughout his service.

The Ohio 4th Infantry guy serves from May 1861 to Dec 1862, becoming a corporeal at some point before going on leave, then may have re-enlisted in July 1863, enlisting in the 174th Ohio Infantry until the end of the war. Though I'm not sure that's the same guy. In 1862, he has a kid in between enlistments if he's that guy, with an unknown mother (a "lady of the evening, perhaps), a kid who ends up being my 2nd great-grandfather. Dies in 1883.

The 12th United States Infantry guy... He enrolls sometime in January 1862, then musters out in June of 1862. His pension record notes he was mustered/allowed out due to "General Disability of 3 months duration following Typhoid Fever, no prospect of recovery.", certified by an army doctor. The same pension, issued in 1907, also notes that there's no evidence of him being reported sick on any army rolls. So I'm a little suspicious of his "no prospect of recovery" fever.

I don't know what division the 12th Infantry guy was (his pension doesn't say), but he was in a Company B under a Captain Fred C Winthrope. He also happened to be originally French-Canadian.

He is out of the 12th around the POD.

Kearny will have encouraged your ancestor to return to the 4th Ohio as part of his campaign to keep the old experienced regiments alive.