The younger dryas killed off a lot of the woodlands:
A Dog Went Left
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NotBigBrother
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There also other teas/tisanes that have been used medically while tasting not that bitter. Like linden flower tea. People might think: "While it tastes OK without sweetening, with sweetening it will taste even better."
Again, that happened well before the POD. The trees had moved back in. The POD occurred in the late-ish Mesolithic, not the Ice Age. The trees had had plenty of time to move back in and they've had even more time between the POD and the "present" of the latest chapter.
OTL Star Carr in what's now England was a Mesolitic settlement that existed between approximately 9300BC and 8480BC, the earlier date being around the time of the POD. The ice was long gone, the temperature close to current norms and the landscape surrounding the settlement would have been a mixed forest of birch, aspen and willow.
The OTL Duvensee archaeological sites in Germany, which are right next door to the spot where the Lake Dwellers (who come to think of it may have been the butterflies-affected descendents of the people who used the Duvensee sites) settled down ITTL, are about the same age as Star Carr give or take a century or two. They were specialized harvesting/storage camps where hazelnuts were collected, roasted to improve their shelf life and otherwise processed. Finds at the sites include a lot of hazelnut shells, a pine axe shaft, a pine boat paddle, two arrow shafts made from hazel and pine wood, and pine and birch bark mats.
So between the two sites there's abundant evidence that at minimum there was abundant hazel, pine, birch, aspen and willow in the relevant part of Europe at the time of the POD. The "present" of the last couple of chapters is a bit less than three thousand or so years after the POD since the tsunami that swept over Doggerland occurred around 6225–6170 BC, so odds are that more trees and other plant species have made their way north by then if they weren't there already.
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The end of Younger Dryas is like around a millennium before the apparent POD. I'm not saying people and the most prominent plants migrated particularly slowly, only that biodiversity was likely still recovering millennia after the Younger Dryas and that likely they had to adapt to different climatic patterns and sunlight patterns.
As an example Oak trees took a while to really spread:
Basically I'm just wondering what plants would take longer to spread. The link I gave above suggests that the North Atlantic region stayed a bit colder than it was afterwards as well so that could have been a factor as well, by 6000 BCE the transition was virtually over, still I wonder which minor plants that now seem "native" to any given region were already there.
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I'm working on the general theory that, in the absence of other information, the colder the temperatures a plant can grow in, the earlier it would have worked its way back into northern Europe or possibly never left. I do admit that I have a few things marked down as "don't mention in-story until at least the Copper Age" because the available info is vague as to when they grew where but I figure that between first the EEFs and then the Yamnaya migrating north and west (mostly west ITTL) and my lot spreading south and east, there's enough human movement going on for some seeds to get spread around, be it deliberately or accidentally.
Postglacial change of the floristic diversity gradient in Europe - Nature Communications
Climate-induced poleward shifts in plant distributions could flatten latitudinal diversity gradients. However, here the authors show that the spread of forests after the last ice age reduced diversity in central and northern Europe, and that human land-use over the past 5000 years strengthened...
www.nature.com
Would the Anatolian farmers migrated around the same time? How far south would they met the WHG farmers?
Still fine tuning the timeline but I now have a rough idea how much time I have to work with. According to my research Early European Farmers migrated into central Europe somewhere between 5800-5400 BC. The routes they took were between the eastern end of the Alps and the Carpathians, between the western end of the Alps and the Central Massif, and between the Central Massif and the Pyrenees (essentially, they went around mountains not over them). It took them between another seven hundred years and two thousand to work their way up to the Baltic coast and into Britain (yes, I know that that is vague, I think the maps I saw were far too general about things).
So, given that as of the last couple of chapters it's 6225-6170 BC, survive I've done my maths right I've got somewhere between around 1350 and 2400 years, give or take a few centuries, for my lot to get their population up and spread out.
I will say that the mountains in Europe are very conveniently located for my purposes. They're a natural butterfly net.
So, given that as of the last couple of chapters it's 6225-6170 BC, survive I've done my maths right I've got somewhere between around 1350 and 2400 years, give or take a few centuries, for my lot to get their population up and spread out.
I will say that the mountains in Europe are very conveniently located for my purposes. They're a natural butterfly net.
Probably. At any rate it will be for my purposes
On another note, does anyone know if a landlocked sea would have fish in it? I remembered that prior to the sea level rising for good the Baltic was landlocked and questions came to mind that Google couldn't answer.
Also I'm afraid that I'm going to have to go back and edit a few things because I've become aware of a few mistakes. Nothing major, just minor details that'll bug me if I don't fix them.
On another note, does anyone know if a landlocked sea would have fish in it? I remembered that prior to the sea level rising for good the Baltic was landlocked and questions came to mind that Google couldn't answer.
Also I'm afraid that I'm going to have to go back and edit a few things because I've become aware of a few mistakes. Nothing major, just minor details that'll bug me if I don't fix them.
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Here's an article about fish in isolated bodies of water. https://www.sciencefocus.com/nature/how-do-fish-end-up-in-isolated-bodies-of-water-like-lakes/
Edit: Aslo, for specifics, there may be records/studies of fossils in the Baltic, which might cover more recent examples of aquatic life in the Baltic. I'm not really sure, but it might be a viable area of research.
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A quick Google says the Baltic was connected to the north sea around 9-10,000 years ago., and was actually close to ocean salinity than today.
Edit: So yes, fish.
Edit: So yes, fish.
Okay. One of the sources I looked at said it wasn't. That's the problem with having a POD so far back, my research sources often aren't agreement.
So I suppose that when in doubt, go with whichever set of info best suits my plans.
Don't forget the root vegetables, roots that are too starchy to really be considered vegetables and greens, plus maybe a couple of pseudo-cereals (one's from the OTL archaeological record, the rest are kinda by-products of crops primarily grown for other reasons that I can't see being allowed to go to waist), and one sort-of cereal (it's a sedge rather than a grass) that's mostly there for a bit more carb variety (and, from a Doyalist perspective, because it featured on a Ray Mears program about the possible foods of stone age Britain I saw years ago).
Oh, and the dairy. Deer milk is higher in fat and protein than cow milk and while my lot don't have the genes for lactose persistence (yet) there's ways around that, especially given that deer milk is apparently fairly low lactose to begin with.
Oh, and the dairy. Deer milk is higher in fat and protein than cow milk and while my lot don't have the genes for lactose persistence (yet) there's ways around that, especially given that deer milk is apparently fairly low lactose to begin with.
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The Sea Farers
The third significant group to avoid being wiped out by the great wave did so simply by living well away from it. On a island large enough to contain multiple lakes near the mouth of the river that in another time and place would be called the Oder*, a few days walk away from the Lake Dwellers, is village of well over two thousand. Being so far from the Great Plain, at least by the standards of people mainly limited to walking speed, their ancestors were a bit behind those to the west of them in starting to cultivate crops. In fact them doing so was mainly the result of them not wanting to have to leave an excellent fishing and bird hunting spot. With a sea to the north of them, a small lagoon to their west , a large lagoon and river to their south and the lakes within the island itself, which aren't much use for fish but are magnets for waterfowl they have a never-ending abundant supply of protein. Having to put a bit of work into maintaining the supply of things to go with that protein seemed a very small price to pay for the advantages of staying put. The only reasons they haven't overtaken the Lake Dwellers in population are that they settled down a few centuries later, have had less people marrying in, and losses from past conflict with their neighbours.
The neighbours in question once included the Lake Dwellers. But when the great-grandparents of the great-grandparents of the current crops of elders were small children and infants, things got to a point where both sides realised that livestock raiding wasn't worth the effort of getting to each others turf and back home, not to mention the losses sustained, that they could call it more or less even regarding other grievances, and, most importantly, that they had other troublesome neighbours to deal with. So they hashed out a treaty of sorts that largely involved a river roughly halfway between the two of them and a general attitude of "you stay on your side, we'll stay on our side and we won't have any more trouble from each other so we only have to worry about those other assholes". Initially they just avoided each other but after enough decades had passed for past hostilities to fade out of living memory relations started to warm. Add in a fair amount of intermarriage and a lot of trading and by the time the plain was drowned things were bordering on being downright friendly.
The Sea Farers have a lot in common with the Lake Dwellers. Same religion, same culture, same language, same style of houses (although due to living by the sea those of the Sea Farers are somewhat better insulated and more solidly constructed), most of the same crops. But there are differences, mostly stemming from their different locations. Both use canoes and coracles, but the Sea Farers skew more towards the former than the later, have more of them and they're often bigger. As they get most of their protein from other sources, the Sea Farers' herds of deer are far smaller than those of the Lake Dwellers or Deer Herders, just slightly more than what's needed for draft animals and a milk supply for the smallest children. They've also made a few tentative additions to the crop package in the form of a few coastal plants deemed worth the effort. Sea kale provides both greens and large, starchy roots. Sea sandwort is a well liked green vegetable, although one more managed than cultivated, as is hastate orach which is actively cultivated. Sea buckthorn provides an abundance of berries even in winter, the Sea Farers' growing collective conviction that they prevent and cure a variety of winter ailments doing a lot to make up for the difficulty in harvesting them. And beach peas provide both greens and tasty seeds**. With regards to the last two, some of the Sea Farers have started to notice that plants planted near them or where beach peas were planted the previous year grow better than those elsewhere, but they haven't quite grasped the significance of that observation yet.
As far from the Great Plain as they are, the first learn on the flood from the Lake Dwellers a week or so after it happened. It would have been sooner but with everything else going on, mostly in terms of attending to the dead and coming to terms with what happened, the Lake Dwellers had other things on their minds than passing on the news. Already vaguely aware that "their" sea is separate from the one that flooded the plain, they conclude that the god of their sea is a far kinder or at least more reasonable one than that of the other sea, and possibly one who is fond of them. They already regarded it as fickle but generous, the usual hazards and difficulties of the sea being balanced by the abundant fish and the amber washed up on the shore, so this isn't too far of a stretch. They also reflect that the Lake Dwellers are closer to "their" sea than the plain.
When their conclusion as to why they were spared gets passed on to first the Lake Dwellers and then the Deer Herders, followed by the Deer Herders' theory getting passed onto them via the Lake Dwellers, a certain degree of theological cross pollination occurred, with interesting results that would have significant consequences down the line.
* The island in question is OTL Usedom on the German side of the Germany-Poland boarder.
** Beach peas have a reputation for being dangerous due to being one of the number of related plants where excessive consumption of the seeds causes Lathyrism, but the key words are "excessive consumption". They need to make up about 30% or more of the diet for a prolonged period of time before things get dicey. Them being a "sometimes food" that rarely clears the 10% mark is, as far as I can find out, perfectly safe. Also, from what I've read there's no danger in eating the leaves and shoots.
The neighbours in question once included the Lake Dwellers. But when the great-grandparents of the great-grandparents of the current crops of elders were small children and infants, things got to a point where both sides realised that livestock raiding wasn't worth the effort of getting to each others turf and back home, not to mention the losses sustained, that they could call it more or less even regarding other grievances, and, most importantly, that they had other troublesome neighbours to deal with. So they hashed out a treaty of sorts that largely involved a river roughly halfway between the two of them and a general attitude of "you stay on your side, we'll stay on our side and we won't have any more trouble from each other so we only have to worry about those other assholes". Initially they just avoided each other but after enough decades had passed for past hostilities to fade out of living memory relations started to warm. Add in a fair amount of intermarriage and a lot of trading and by the time the plain was drowned things were bordering on being downright friendly.
The Sea Farers have a lot in common with the Lake Dwellers. Same religion, same culture, same language, same style of houses (although due to living by the sea those of the Sea Farers are somewhat better insulated and more solidly constructed), most of the same crops. But there are differences, mostly stemming from their different locations. Both use canoes and coracles, but the Sea Farers skew more towards the former than the later, have more of them and they're often bigger. As they get most of their protein from other sources, the Sea Farers' herds of deer are far smaller than those of the Lake Dwellers or Deer Herders, just slightly more than what's needed for draft animals and a milk supply for the smallest children. They've also made a few tentative additions to the crop package in the form of a few coastal plants deemed worth the effort. Sea kale provides both greens and large, starchy roots. Sea sandwort is a well liked green vegetable, although one more managed than cultivated, as is hastate orach which is actively cultivated. Sea buckthorn provides an abundance of berries even in winter, the Sea Farers' growing collective conviction that they prevent and cure a variety of winter ailments doing a lot to make up for the difficulty in harvesting them. And beach peas provide both greens and tasty seeds**. With regards to the last two, some of the Sea Farers have started to notice that plants planted near them or where beach peas were planted the previous year grow better than those elsewhere, but they haven't quite grasped the significance of that observation yet.
As far from the Great Plain as they are, the first learn on the flood from the Lake Dwellers a week or so after it happened. It would have been sooner but with everything else going on, mostly in terms of attending to the dead and coming to terms with what happened, the Lake Dwellers had other things on their minds than passing on the news. Already vaguely aware that "their" sea is separate from the one that flooded the plain, they conclude that the god of their sea is a far kinder or at least more reasonable one than that of the other sea, and possibly one who is fond of them. They already regarded it as fickle but generous, the usual hazards and difficulties of the sea being balanced by the abundant fish and the amber washed up on the shore, so this isn't too far of a stretch. They also reflect that the Lake Dwellers are closer to "their" sea than the plain.
When their conclusion as to why they were spared gets passed on to first the Lake Dwellers and then the Deer Herders, followed by the Deer Herders' theory getting passed onto them via the Lake Dwellers, a certain degree of theological cross pollination occurred, with interesting results that would have significant consequences down the line.
* The island in question is OTL Usedom on the German side of the Germany-Poland boarder.
** Beach peas have a reputation for being dangerous due to being one of the number of related plants where excessive consumption of the seeds causes Lathyrism, but the key words are "excessive consumption". They need to make up about 30% or more of the diet for a prolonged period of time before things get dicey. Them being a "sometimes food" that rarely clears the 10% mark is, as far as I can find out, perfectly safe. Also, from what I've read there's no danger in eating the leaves and shoots.
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Nice is relative. Remember that they live in an era intergroup violence is often a fact of life. The only reasons them and the Lake Dwellers made peace was that no one was gaining anything from doing otherwise and they both needed to focus their attention elsewhere. But they're no worse than anyone else and better than some.
If the sea wasn't too rough, probably. They might have to take the long way around though since hugging the coast of first the mainland and then various islands seems like a safer option than crossing open water. Haven't figured out sails yet though.
As would other forms of idea trading.
ETA: Due to a fairly significant research fail on my part my plans have hit a snag in the form of me just finding out about the 8.2 kiloyear event. Doesn't help that even the Wikipedia article uses a lot of technical language and is therefore about as clear as mud to me, but I have established that the global temperature drops by about 2-3 degrees C. Unfortunately I'm not entirely sure what the temperature was before it dropped.
Now this isn't a major catastrophe as pretty much all the plants in my crop package are pretty cold tolerant. According to the UK plant hardiness rating system, where most of the present UK is Zone 7, with the colder bits being Zone 6, hazel is rated Zone 4, sea kale is Zone 5, cattail, burdock, chicory and goat's beard are rated for Zone 3 as are a few other things and so on. But it is a problem.
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How much of a problem is it? The article says the coldest part was only for 60 years and the event altogether taking 150 years. Considering the time scale, that seems relatively workable, although I neither know your plans nor how much of an impact this sort of event would have on a nascent agricultural civilization.