A Dog Went Left
- Thread starter Tessitore
- Start date
A couple of things I could do with some additional opinions on. Firstly, the matter regarding fine tuning of the crop package that was on the previous page but which everyone has apparently overlooked. It's a rather long post so I'm just going to put a link to it rather than repeating the content; https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/a-dog-went-left.524323/page-7#post-23866919
Secondly, something I'm planning for when things reach the Bronze Age is a canal to connect the Baltic with the Elbe, for much the same reasons as why multiple canals doing so were built in OTL. Thing is, I'm in two minds regarding the route. The first is for it to more or less follow the same route as the OTL medieval Stecknitz Canal, while the second option is to basically, starting with the Ratzeburger See (which is already connected to the Baltic by two rivers), play join the dots with appropriately located lakes until the canal reaches the Elbe. The latter would theoretically involve less digging at least but there might be other problems with it that I'm unaware of, given that they didn't go with that option in OTL.
Secondly, something I'm planning for when things reach the Bronze Age is a canal to connect the Baltic with the Elbe, for much the same reasons as why multiple canals doing so were built in OTL. Thing is, I'm in two minds regarding the route. The first is for it to more or less follow the same route as the OTL medieval Stecknitz Canal, while the second option is to basically, starting with the Ratzeburger See (which is already connected to the Baltic by two rivers), play join the dots with appropriately located lakes until the canal reaches the Elbe. The latter would theoretically involve less digging at least but there might be other problems with it that I'm unaware of, given that they didn't go with that option in OTL.
Seriously, I need some help with the above because I'm pretty thoroughly stuck regarding them at the moment. I particularly need to get my crop package finalised sooner rather than later on the name of avoiding continuity issues and the like.
Sorry about the double post but this thread was off the first page and almost off the second.
Sorry about the double post but this thread was off the first page and almost off the second.
I suppose I'll offer my own response. I personally held off till now cause I felt I wasn't knowledgeable enough to offer much of use in this instance, but I will try. Firstly, have you taken into account climactic differences between now and when the crops your looking at are supposed to be domesticated? I'm not familiar with the climate of the period, but I'm pretty sure it was at least somewhat colder, which would affect the range of these crops, growing season, etc. I don't think recommending using databases to do your own research would be very helpful since that would be very time consuming, but posting a question in the pre-1900 forum or possibly r/askhistorians asking for current research on what social and biological factors cause some plants to be domesticated and others not might prove faster than trying your own luck looking for relevant research. It's also seems likely that a similar question has been asked before so putting in a google search about crop domestication then adding a site:alternatehistory.com or site:reddit.com to narrow your results could help (other websites like Quora might also have info too). On the matter of the canal, that seems more niche (both knowledge about canal construction in general, and certainly what you're asking in particular), so both asking yourself and looking for other people who've asked similar questions might bear less fruit. I personally don't have any knowledge myself to offer either, but I would suggest using the OTL canal route to play it safe if you can't find enough information to your satisfaction.
Regarding climate, while I need to double check things to make sure that the time periods line up the way I think they do, from my research I get the definite impression that the climate in northwestern Europe was actually warmer and wetter back then. Well, for a while. The temperature in Europe dropped significantly during the Neolithic due to an extremely large lake in North America draining into the Atlantic, then things warmed up again, then cooled down again. The Neolithic was a pretty long time period and there were a lot of climate shifts.
Regardless, the vast majority of the crops I've picked out have a fairly broad range of climatic tolerances.
Thank you for your reply.
Regardless, the vast majority of the crops I've picked out have a fairly broad range of climatic tolerances.
Thank you for your reply.
I think you are right about the climate fluctuating in both directions for specific reasons at specific times; as you say we are talking about a time scale several times greater than the 2000 years separating us from mid-Classical times. The climate has undergone some global shifts since then, but we'd expect more and some of them of greater magnitude--in either direction!--than how the Little Ice Age affected the world around the North Atlantic for instance. For example on a global scale, it was enough time for the Sahara region (and I believe most of Arabia) to become a grassland/veldt, and then turn into the vast desert we know today--and that the Greeks and Romans knew, with only legend to tell them it was once something else while humans built the foundations of early civilization. But we can see incremental changes since Classical times anyway.
And so I suppose there is little for it but to be somewhat vague, so that groups displaying traits that would pin them down to one climate zone type or another can be either shifted around to locations actually matching those conditions at a chosen time, or bouncing via retcon the exact timeframe to bring a chosen region they are supposed to live in into the right contemporary climate.
Or to see if there are databases of academic paleoclimate analyses in areas of interest, to map out both when and where the desired conditions might have obtained and write the first draft around this painstakingly acquired but fairly plausible and reliable data. It may be that academics of our present day are making some mistakes, perhaps misled by scanty information, or too wide (or narrow) a net cast in the digs--but the point would be, that if one used the best data currently known, no one can prove that one's narrations are impossible either.
RE: Canals
I took a quick look at google maps and it appears that the Elbe-Lübeck canal likely played connect-the-dots with some smaller lakes. Though I would imagine that several hundred years of development would make it hard to say which lakes in the area are natural and which formed from human action.
It looks like the current canal is only 8km from the Ratzeburer See with a small watercourse leading even closer. Germany doesnt have any street views so i cant tell if the reasoning was the only hill in the area being inconveniently placed, or if some nobles wanted it that way to screw over a rival.
Of course, you can always use politics to explain why something wasnt done in the most optimal way. "King Somebody Bigshot III ordered a canal built from Here to There to divert the salt trade from his rivals. It took over 20 years and nearly bankrupted the country. Modern scholars speculate that the crushing taxes required to pay for its construction played a key role in the overthrow of the Bigshot dynasty."
I took a quick look at google maps and it appears that the Elbe-Lübeck canal likely played connect-the-dots with some smaller lakes. Though I would imagine that several hundred years of development would make it hard to say which lakes in the area are natural and which formed from human action.
It looks like the current canal is only 8km from the Ratzeburer See with a small watercourse leading even closer. Germany doesnt have any street views so i cant tell if the reasoning was the only hill in the area being inconveniently placed, or if some nobles wanted it that way to screw over a rival.
Of course, you can always use politics to explain why something wasnt done in the most optimal way. "King Somebody Bigshot III ordered a canal built from Here to There to divert the salt trade from his rivals. It took over 20 years and nearly bankrupted the country. Modern scholars speculate that the crushing taxes required to pay for its construction played a key role in the overthrow of the Bigshot dynasty."
Regarding the canals:
The Stecknitz Canal was likely chosen IOTL not just for political reasons but also because the route connecting the Stecknitz and the Delvenau had to cross a much flatter watershed. If you want to play "connect the dots" between Ratzeburger See and Schaalsee, you must be aware of the (comparative, for Schleswig-Holstein) massive difference in height, which IOTL leads to the fact that the canal between these two lakes powers Schleswig-Holstein's only waterpower electrical plant. So, what your alt-prehistoric canal-diggers gain in shortness of distance, they must compensate with more use of complex sluicing technology.
Here is a topographical map:
de-de.topographic-map.com
The Stecknitz Canal was likely chosen IOTL not just for political reasons but also because the route connecting the Stecknitz and the Delvenau had to cross a much flatter watershed. If you want to play "connect the dots" between Ratzeburger See and Schaalsee, you must be aware of the (comparative, for Schleswig-Holstein) massive difference in height, which IOTL leads to the fact that the canal between these two lakes powers Schleswig-Holstein's only waterpower electrical plant. So, what your alt-prehistoric canal-diggers gain in shortness of distance, they must compensate with more use of complex sluicing technology.
Here is a topographical map:
Topografische Karte Schleswig-Holstein, Höhe, Relief
Visualisierung und Teilen von kostenlosen topografischen Karten. Schleswig-Holstein, Deutschland.
de-de.topographic-map.com
Okay, that's the sort of thing I was wondering about. As I've never actually been to the area in question I've been stuck going by Google Maps and whatever other information I could find online which is far from ideal. Thanks for the link.Regarding the canals:
The Stecknitz Canal was likely chosen IOTL not just for political reasons but also because the route connecting the Stecknitz and the Delvenau had to cross a much flatter watershed. If you want to play "connect the dots" between Ratzeburger See and Schaalsee, you must be aware of the (comparative, for Schleswig-Holstein) massive difference in height, which IOTL leads to the fact that the canal between these two lakes powers Schleswig-Holstein's only waterpower electrical plant. So, what your alt-prehistoric canal-diggers gain in shortness of distance, they must compensate with more use of complex sluicing technology.
Here is a topographical map:
Topografische Karte Schleswig-Holstein, Höhe, Relief
Visualisierung und Teilen von kostenlosen topografischen Karten. Schleswig-Holstein, Deutschland.
In case you aren’t aware, google maps does offer topographical information if you open “layers” and select “terrain”. You might already know that and it’s just that the google maps version didn’t provide enough info, but I thought I should mention it.
Really liking this TL so far. I love these kinds of timelines about alternate civilizations and such. Can't wait to see how the Lake Dwellers and the Deer Riders develop over time.
ctayfor
Monthly Donor
The reason I've been bringing up Polynesia is because that is what I have detailed knowledge of since I'm a Kiwi who has also lived a number of years in both Samoa and Hawai'i and actually done some study of the original cultures in all three places. I find most (not all) people who come from the temperate zones of the Northern Hemisphere tend to have little (and often stereotypical) knowledge of Polynesian culture and technology, mainly gleaned from popular culture (Moana makes me cringe). I have simply tried to provide relevant information of neolithic peoples solving similar challenges to those in your very entertaining and well-written story as another example of Homo Sapiens Sapiens using his or her innate problem-solving abilities. I had no expectation that you might do any more than perhaps choose one or two ideas since they were examples of things that worked historically in real life. I did not expect you to copy and paste Polynesian culture wholesale into a rather different environment. I apologise if I came on too strong and I shall hold my peace henceforward and simply enjoy your tale.
I mean, the mere fact that the Maori were able to put up one hell of a fight against the British despite an immense technological gap is proof enough of that - to say nothing of the distances Polynesian sailors covered over the course of the centuries. IMO, had there been more Polynesian islands the size of, or even bigger than, New Zealand in the Pacific Ocean, the local peoples could've achieved feats even more impressive than OTL's, if only because there would've been more people and resources to build upon.
That said, Polynesian civilization became what it became exactly because of the peculiarities of the Pacific Ocean, so in such a world, the Polynesian peoples could've been less widespread, AFAIK the Maori ditched long-distance sea travel as soon as they reached New Zealand, after all (I could be wrong, though).
ctayfor
Monthly Donor
Yeah, nah, to use a Kiwi expression. My intent was only to give you information on what was done elsewhere that might give an idea or two to pick from. Since I don't have access to any scholarly works I could point you to, I presented it all as information of "they did this and they used that." It's all from my own original studies done decades ago. You could use your own Google-fu to find many of the individual topics or items, but most people have't been exposed to the requisite general knowledge to know to look. There are certain to be many other cultures in other parts of the world where the same is true.
Incidentally, speaking of long-distance voyaging, in a rather fascinating aside, there is some evidence that Maori tohunga (a sort of combination of master craftsman and priest - the same word in Hawai'ian is kahuna) were travelling to Ra'iatea just west of Tahiti to take part in professional development conferences with their professional colleagues from all over Eastern Polynesia and perhaps beyond. This seems to have gone on for several centuries after the migration voyages.
Incidentally, speaking of long-distance voyaging, in a rather fascinating aside, there is some evidence that Maori tohunga (a sort of combination of master craftsman and priest - the same word in Hawai'ian is kahuna) were travelling to Ra'iatea just west of Tahiti to take part in professional development conferences with their professional colleagues from all over Eastern Polynesia and perhaps beyond. This seems to have gone on for several centuries after the migration voyages.
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Fair enough. Problem with text based communication is that tone is open to interpretation so misunderstandings can happen.
On a completely different note, I've noticed that there's quite a few plants on my list of definite domesticates and my "maybe" list which are used as coffee substitutes in OTL. Which raises a question; would people make a coffee-like beverage without doing so with the intent of imitating coffee? Not an important issue by any stretch of the imagination but one that keeps bugging me nevertheless.
I know nothing about plants or cooking, so maybe I’m wildly off base. But I feel like if otl ancient peoples were able to discover fermentation and alcohol production multiple times from a variety of different plants, the same could be true with coffee substitutes. It seems reasonable to me that some brewer experiments on the side and discovers the recipe for a mild stimulant.
Speaking of, do the survivors of the drowned plain have alcohol? I imagine ciders and the like could be developed relatively easily.