A Blunted Sickle - Thread II

[Chris S]

I think that things in NK have also gotten better if one compares it to the 1990s famine there. At least they're not starving anymore, right?

If you look at it that way then sure, but I tend to be very wary of attributing famine to the machinations of any government or regime since famines are often multifactorial and a large number of the factors are simply beyond human control (like droughts) or are at times beyond the control of the government whose population is unfortunately afflicted by it (for instance war or blockade affecting food supply). Government incompetence or capriciousness almost invariably plays some role but how large a role depends on each instance.

In any case the North Korean famine of the 1990s mostly occurred under Kim Jong-il (the second North Korean leader), not Kim il-Sung (since Kim il-Sung died in 1994 after all) and I would say the 1990s are a lot closer in time to today than the 1990s were to the start of North Korea's regime. This then would be an example of where things got worse for the average citizen over time from say the 1950s to the 1990s.

 

[Ukrainian Victory]

If you look at it that way then sure, but I tend to be very wary of attributing famine to the machinations of any government or regime since famines are often multifactorial and a large number of the factors are simply beyond human control (like droughts) or are at times beyond the control of the government whose population is unfortunately afflicted by it (for instance war or blockade affecting food supply). Government incompetence or capriciousness almost invariably plays some role but how large a role depends on each instance.

In any case the North Korean famine of the 1990s mostly occurred under Kim Jong-il (the second North Korean leader), not Kim il-Sung (since Kim il-Sung died in 1994 after all) and I would say the 1990s are a lot closer in time to today than the 1990s were to the start of North Korea's regime. This then would be an example of where things got worse for the average citizen over time from say the 1950s to the 1990s.

Agreed.

 

[Salamander]

India is very, very unlikely to intervene in Fiji except to perhaps push for suspension from the Commonwealth and really pushing diplomatically for a reversal of the coup.

Speaking of Fijian coups, Sitiveni Rabuka has been elected Prime Minister of Fiji. Legitimately this time.

 

[Chris S]

Then it would suck for the Savoy-Aosta branch! Their chance to claim the Italian throne--forever gone!

Well not sure what the problem there would be. What chance did they ever really have to claim the Italian throne anyway? The fact that Italy would not be defeated and occupied should mean that Victor Emmanuel III continues to reign as King of Italy until his death in 1947 and would only be associated in Italy with just the First World War (as a victorious Ally) and not the Second. Assuming Italy doesn't become a republic between then and now, after Victor Emmanuel III would come Umberto II from 1947 to 1983 and then Victor Emmanuel IV from 1983 to present. What presumably would change is who Victor Emmanuel IV marries since in TTL he doesn't get exiled according to constitutional requirements and continues to live in Italy instead of Switzerland. Hence it seems unlikely that he would end up marrying the Swiss Marina Doria and most likely ends up needing to court/choosing to court some eligible Princess. A none too thorough search brings up Princess Irene of Denmark and Greece who was born in 1942 (Victor Emmanuel IV was born in 1937 and Marina Doria was born in 1935), Princess Astrid of Norway (b. 1932), Princess Margaretha of Sweden (b. 1934), Princess Birgitta of Sweden (b. 1937) and Princess Désirée of Sweden (b. 1938). Interestingly enough Princess Irene is the sister of Princess Sofia, who became Queen Sofia of Spain when Juan Carlos became King of Spain. If Victor Emmanuel IV were to marry Princess Irene then he and the Spanish King (assuming a restoration of the reigning monarchy in Spain as in OTL) would become brothers-in-law. Victor Emmanuel IV's life would also likely be very very different.

 

[CaptainCalvert]

Speaking of Fijian coups, Sitiveni Rabuka has been elected Prime Minister of Fiji. Legitimately this time.

That surely qualifies as things that look like ASB but aren't.

 

[Ukrainian Victory]

What chance did they ever really have to claim the Italian throne anyway?

A very good one had Victor Emmanuel III died in 1903 or earlier.

 

[Admiral Matt]

So minor question.

Was euthanasia a norm for handling invalids at the Landes-Heil-und Pflegeanstalt in Bernburg during the Winter of 1941-1942, by any chance?

No particular reason.

Edit: Well, got my answer. Good I asked before reading too far, I suppose.

 

[pdf27]

So minor question.
Was euthanasia a norm for handling invalids at the Landes-Heil-und Pflegeanstalt in Bernburg during the Winter of 1941-1942, by any chance?
No particular reason.
Edit: Well, got my answer. Good I asked before reading too far, I suppose.

Took them a while to spot it at the time, so don't feel bad - the main topic of conversation was about banana rationing.
It was one of the original Aktion T4 sites, I stretched things a little by including people with injuries rather than congenital abnormalities, but given the situation in Germany at the time it doesn't feel like much of a stretch.

 

[naraht]

I'm glad you brought up bananas again. I've done further research here. This paper has been useful: "THE BANANA IN JAMAICA: EXPORT TRADE" by Ansell Hart in Social and Economic Studies Vol. 3, No. 2 (SEPTEMBER, 1954), pp. 212-229 (18 pages).

By 1941 iOTL, production of Bananas on Jamaica was down to a quarter of what it had been in 1937, and by 1943 would shrink to 1% of what it had been in 1937. While some of this may be attributed to the war, it appears that Yellow Sigatoka leaf spot disease caused by Cercospora musae (AKA Mycosphaerella musicola) was a *much* more significant cause. It wasn't until the methods of fighting leaf spot in Honduras were introduced that the crop began to recover.

Note, from the article. "The first indication of the havoc brought by Leaf-spot appeared in the Market rather than on the fruit in the field. The fruit appeared normal when reaped , but reached the market in an over-ripe and unmarketable condition. Bananas, which had once represented over 50% of the island exports, fell to 1.1% under the buffeting of war, hurricane and plant disease" (the 1.1% is in 1943).

So the Germans may not be able to stop the British from getting Bananas, but what Jamaica had was scarce and probably would have spoiled on the way to the UK. It may have necessary to get such a large number of bananas from elsewhere, such as Honduras, but there might have been political considerations.

 

[diestormlie]

Oh no. Not bananas, not again.

 

[Maperseguir]

Oh no. Not bananas, not again.

What do you expect to get when you take a sickle, blunt it, let it grow fat over ten years and two threads, and dip it in yellow...

 

[vizzer]

Oh no. Not bananas, not again.

Seems to be a rule of the forum that all threads with improved British performance must descend into discussions of food - probably says something unfortunate about the British psyche. 😋

 

[Ramontxo]

Well when you have an Coffee drinking Dragon writing excellent Royal Navy threads that tend to happen

 

[generalurist]

Has there been a history of Banana-based tangents in these threads?

 

[diestormlie]

Has there been a history of Banana-based tangents in these threads?

Someone's Forum footer, last I checked, was along the lines of 'I kill Hitler in a novel and interesting way, and I come back to find you talking about Bananas!' It was spawned from this thread.

 

[Mayukh]

Someone's Forum footer, last I checked, was along the lines of 'I kill Hitler in a novel and interesting way, and I come back to find you talking about Bananas!' It was spawned from this thread.

Either way how did it tangent in that way?
Killing hitler in aktion t4 is kinda too innovative to talk about bananas.

 

[Paulo the Limey]

Someone's Forum footer, last I checked, was along the lines of 'I kill Hitler in a novel and interesting way, and I come back to find you talking about Bananas!' It was spawned from this thread.

Ahem.

 

[diestormlie]

Ahem.

There you are!

 

[naraic]

Either way how did it tangent in that way?
Killing hitler in aktion t4 is kinda too innovative to talk about bananas.

A Blunted Sickle - Thread II

14th December 1941 After an all-day meeting of the Anglo-French Supreme War Council (to which unusually none of the representatives of allied powers have been invited) and at which both Brooke and Blanchard have been grilled closely as to the state of the troops under their command, it is...

www.alternatehistory.com

This was the post

15th December 1941
The SS Tilapa docks at Avonmouth, loaded with 10 million bananas from Jamaica. Over the next three days a further three Fyffe ships will dock at London, Liverpool and Glasgow, bringing enough bananas to allow every child in the UK to have one for Christmas.

22nd December 1941
Having failed to show any signs of regaining conciousness from his head wound, Wolfgang Schmidt is transferred from the Martin-Luther-Krankenhaus in Berlin to the Landes-Heil-und Pflegeanstalt in Bernburg for nursing care.

Hitler's death went kind of under the radar. He had already been hospitalised, in a coma with a false name. Furthermore people didn't realise that transferred for nursing care is how being sent for euthanasia was written up during the 3rd Reich.

 

[naraht]

The issue is that unlike the OTL delivery of Bananas by the SS Tilapa in 1945, the Banana industry in Jamaica was very different in 1941. The British had actually banned the import of Bananas iOTL in 1940 determining the only fruit that could be imported was oranges. (note, this *may* have been done to attempt to get Franco on the British side as most were imported from Spain). In fact in 1941, the British arranged for a subsidy for the Jamaican orange growers as the Bananas could not be shipped from Jamaica (Britain had traditionally been their largest market, and it was definitely behind the trade walls of the empire. In fact, for the Tilapa (and her sisters in 1945), the desired bananas could not be completely supplied from Jamaica (Jamaica just didn't have enough of an industry left between the war and the leaf spot disease).

While the war being shorter, long term keeps the industry healthier, it doesn't affect the degree to which Leaf Spot had devastated the Jamaica Banana crops in 1941. If the story had been "from Jamaica and other Caribbean countries" rather than "from Jamaica", then it is a much different situation. (for this purposes, I think that the Central American countries with Caribbean coasts can be viewed that way.

Note, Jamaica was in the Sterling area, where most of the other Banana producing countries were not, as such Jamaican Bananas went to the UK, where Central American bananas went elsewhere (the USA & others). Bretton Woods, with the functional end of the Sterling area, put all of them in competition with each other. I'm not sure the author has answered whether you have a breakdown of the Sterling area (which functionally includes the rest of the Entente post war) vs. the Dollar area post war.

Among additional sources,

On This Day: Yes, we have bananas

December 30th, 1945, a cold Sunday morning, saw the cargo ship Tilapa docked in Bristol. It was carrying the first bananas to be seen in Britain for five years [1]. Ten million Jamaican bananas were welcomed by the Lord Mayor as crowds lined the dockside. They were not the only foodstuffs that...

www.tastesofhistory.co.uk

Defining Moment: The banana returns to Britain, December 30 1945

www.ft.com