A Blunted Sickle - Thread II

To go off on a different tangent the popular culture of this TL is going to be very different. Much of Hollywood's production IOTL simply isn't going to happen.
No US in the war, no "America saves the world", no Objective Burma, no U571. There won't be much more than a handful of Americans involved in the fighting, maybe we'll see some movies about the ones that joined the RCAF or maybe a story about an American trapped in Paris helping to liberate the city but it'll be a stretch for even Hollywood scriptwriters to do more.
 

Driftless

Donor
To go off on a different tangent the popular culture of this TL is going to be very different. Much of Hollywood's production IOTL simply isn't going to happen.
No US in the war, no "America saves the world", no Objective Burma, no U571. There won't be much more than a handful of Americans involved in the fighting, maybe we'll see some movies about the ones that joined the RCAF or maybe a story about an American trapped in Paris helping to liberate the city but it'll be a stretch for even Hollywood scriptwriters to do more.
I wonder if you'd see some type of public perception split following ITTL war in the US. By that I mean the Isolationists will crow "See, the Europeans took care of their own problems" and the more outward looking will feel that we stood idly by while Europe burned, and the mass in between will wonder what's for lunch....
 
Well for the majority of the mandates if they were treated as colonies it likely wouldn't make much of a difference in the long run at least for the British mandates since the birth of the Commonwealth in the mid 1920s essentially laid the groundwork for a transition to independence for all the colonies eventually. India obtaining dominion status after the war basically guarantees the same for the West Indies, Malaysia and the African colonies down the road. In addition Mandatory Iraq had gained formal independence in 1932; so this also sets a precedent for the other British mandates although Iraq, like Syria (including Lebanon initially) and Palestine (including Transjordan initially) were Class A mandates which were explicitly recognized as being at "a stage of development" that they could exist as independent nations. Whereas Class B mandates (like Cameroon and Tanganyika) were treated more like regular colonies, and Class C mandates (SW Africa, South Seas Islands Mandate, New Guinea, Nauru and Samoa) were considered "best administered" under the laws of the Mandatory powers as "integral portions of [their] territory".

I'm still wondering if we aren't viewing the disposal of the mandates through an OTL lens with the idea that all the mandates were legally required to become independent (when essentially only Class A mandates were recognized as such). If that was the case, then the OTL 1946 French Union attempt would have been illegal since it provided for France, France's various colonies as well as the mandates/trust territories (and these were formerly Class B mandates) to be fully assimilated into a single French state. Even the trust territories themselves after the UN was founded did not automatically envision that decolonization would lead to independence as we saw with the Northern Marianas which voted to become a territory of the United States.

Additionally in TTL the global landscape is vastly different from OTL. In OTL we had two superpowers after the end of WWII which were explicitly anti-colonial in character (one a former colony, the United States; the other a communist state, the Soviet Union). All other great powers that had been explicitly colonial in character had either been defeated (Italy, Japan) and divested of their overseas holdings or were victorious but massively weakened (France, the United Kingdom, the Netherlands, Denmark, Belgium) by six years of brutal warfare and in many cases foreign (usually German) occupation. The only colonial powers that weren't really impacted by the war were Spain and Portugal and even here the environment in which they found themselves in post-1945 was one where colonialism was being pushed out as the USSR and US on principle opposed it and also supported various independence movements to basically outflank each other in the growing Cold War. The system that was set up (the UN) was also explicitly against indefinite colonialism on principle.

Here we literally have none of that. The Soviet Union remains mostly isolated from global influence except perhaps in supporting Nationalist China at points. Italy, Japan, the Netherlands, Denmark, Belgium, France and the UK have not been diminished in power as in OTL by being weakened by Germany's war on them. The US has not been involved in the war at all. I would imagine decolonization would come for quite a few territories but that it would not necessarily be like OTL. Firstly the Philippines would likely become independent in 1945 (unless we get a major Japanese-American War) and many British colonies would likely be granted dominion status. However in the context of TTL 1943 onwards these events would likely look different than OTL post-1945; the Philippines would probably be a bit closer to early 1900s Cuba than OTL 1946 Philippines insofar as they would be independent but the US would still have massive sway and aspects of Filipino independence might be proscribed/restricted. The British dominions would probably more resemble the pre-1939 status than the OTL post-1946 status (in the informal terms of being more closely knit). India's independence as a dominion will shake things up as I imagine that India will eventually want to become a republic and perhaps something like the 1949 London Declaration will be adopted. In fact, assuming that the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conferences are still held, then the first meeting is likely to be a post war meeting in 1944 at which perhaps the issue of Ireland's status might get a first full airing (with Ireland already considering itself a republic that was only associated with the Commonwealth; while the other states considered it a dominion still). With de Valera still as Taoiseach it might be possible that the framework of the 1937 Irish Constitution becomes the basis for de Valera to propose (in 1946) something similar to the Nehru's eventual 3-point programme of 1949 that laid the foundation for the 1949 London Declaration that allowed republics to remain members of the Commonwealth. Thus we might get Irish membership of the Commonwealth explicitly as a republic (at least until Costello succeeds him and probably takes Ireland out of the Commonwealth until de Valera comes back in in the 1950s).

As things seem to stand in TTL 1943, independence for most countries as we recognize it today would be some ways off. Instead many countries might look more like "free associated states" at best or protectorates at worst.



When you say that "prior to that, there was a sense that SW Africa would get its independence eventually" would this include the period 1922-1949? I ask because I want to be sure we aren't viewing this from the OTL post-1945 lens. If the sense was there from say 1933 for example that SW Africa would eventually get its independence then this sets things up for SW African organizations to ally with the ANC and for Namibian independence to become a part of the struggle against white minority rule (if not Apartheid as well since as you tantalizingly discussed, outright Apartheid might be avoided though some Jim Crow analogue may not be - in which case one might see an even earlier Namibian independence if the Jim Crow analogue ends in South Africa at around the same time as Jim Crow ended in the US in the 1960s). However, if the sense of SW African independence being inevitable arose in 1945 (and not before) due in part to the sea change in the wider world with:

1. the establishment of the UN
2. various declarations associated and integral to the UN from the Atlantic Charter and the UN Charter (note that pdf27's Placentia Bay Charter is similar to OTL's Atlantic Charter but unlike OTL's Atlantic Charter it does not advocate for self-determination for all peoples by saying in the third point that "they respect the right of all peoples to choose the form of government under which they will live") including Chapter XI of the UN Charter
3. Two superpowers that pushed for the independence of colonial territories

then are we sure that the same sense will arise in TTL post-1943 without any of these (and other) factors? That the various SW African groups won't instead be like various groups in the original South Africa and start fighting for equality within South Africa?
A couple of points.
1) The United States had committed by law to independence of the Republic of the Philippines in the 1935 Tydings–McDuffie Act for essentially 10 years after passage. iOTL, *everyone* involved wanted to wait a year (the law basically indicated that Independence should be on a *July 4th*) as the war was still going on and there were still Japanese fighting in the country. In a TL in which the Japanese implode, it will probably be July 4, 1945, if things are just delayed and war starts in 1944 (for example), it conceivably could be 1946 or even 1947, but basically there is no naval war in the Far East on 1945, the Philippines will be a free country on July 4, 1945. (This could have side effects in close by colonial areas, with Malaya seeing both the situation post war in FIC, India and the Philippines and to see what path they want.

2) It is up to the author, but of the countries mentioned, the weakening of Belgium is closest to that of OTL (feels like half the war was fought there), but the question is whether slowing of independence movements in British Africa and French Africa slow things in the Congo as well.
 
iTTL, James Bond either has a Bond girl or a "Q" who is French (and whichever one isn't French is probably Dutch). Alternating Movies will have a Soviet or Japanese villain. The Italian spy will manage to take themselves out of the hunt in some relatively humorous (but non-lethal) way and the American spy will work with Bond at the end to save both of their lives, but walk away without the McGuffin with Bond telling him as a final comment something like "Have Washington ask London to see if they'll give you a copy".
 
To go off on a different tangent the popular culture of this TL is going to be very different. Much of Hollywood's production IOTL simply isn't going to happen.
No US in the war, no "America saves the world", no Objective Burma, no U571. There won't be much more than a handful of Americans involved in the fighting, maybe we'll see some movies about the ones that joined the RCAF or maybe a story about an American trapped in Paris helping to liberate the city but it'll be a stretch for even Hollywood scriptwriters to do more.

Even alternate history in this timeline is going to be different, in the sense that obsession with Axis victory and German invasion of Britain/ Sealion will be less for alternate history due to the Axis (Nazi Germany) being further from victory (worse military performance against France, faster defeat) and from even a failed Barbarossa/ failed Sealion than reality and will be seen as less capable to wage war, especially against great powers.

Plus, one should expect WW1 to be proportionally more frequently used for alternate history than WW2 because the Axis will have less chance of WW2 victory than reality, making outcome changes and alternate history for WW1 more appealing than for WW2.
 
I wonder if you'd see some type of public perception split following ITTL war in the US. By that I mean the Isolationists will crow "See, the Europeans took care of their own problems" and the more outward looking will feel that we stood idly by while Europe burned, and the mass in between will wonder what's for lunch....
The flip side of that may be that the Entente can say that they have achieved what they went to war for, actually liberating (most of) Poland. Then once the horrors of what happened under Nazi rule comes out they can assume the moral high ground, " we fought for what was right, expended blood and treasure to remove a great evil from the world while you didn't even want to extend us a line of credit and just sat there making money "
 

Driftless

Donor
I don't remember if our author has addressed how Germany will be rebuilt following this war. I'm guessing the first dips of rebuilding monies that the Entente can spare (they've paid - literally - a steep price in treasure already) will go towards Poland, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Belgium, the Czechs, and whatever is left gets directed towards German infrastructure and basic humanitarian aid. Infrastructure to support occupation and humanitarian aid because its the right thing to do.

Might these Italians jump in on some of the rebuilds? For diplomatic points?

You might get some US grants for humanitarian aid, and loans-for-profit to rebuild, but what is the collateral and what are the rates?
 
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When you say that "prior to that, there was a sense that SW Africa would get its independence eventually" would this include the period 1922-1949? I ask because I want to be sure we aren't viewing this from the OTL post-1945 lens. If the sense was there from say 1933 for example that SW Africa would eventually get its independence then this sets things up for SW African organizations to ally with the ANC and for Namibian independence to become a part of the struggle against white minority rule (if not Apartheid as well since as you tantalizingly discussed, outright Apartheid might be avoided though some Jim Crow analogue may not be - in which case one might see an even earlier Namibian independence if the Jim Crow analogue ends in South Africa at around the same time as Jim Crow ended in the US in the 1960s). However, if the sense of SW African independence being inevitable arose in 1945 (and not before) due in part to the sea change in the wider world with:

1. the establishment of the UN
2. various declarations associated and integral to the UN from the Atlantic Charter and the UN Charter (note that pdf27's Placentia Bay Charter is similar to OTL's Atlantic Charter but unlike OTL's Atlantic Charter it does not advocate for self-determination for all peoples by saying in the third point that "they respect the right of all peoples to choose the form of government under which they will live") including Chapter XI of the UN Charter
3. Two superpowers that pushed for the independence of colonial territories

then are we sure that the same sense will arise in TTL post-1943 without any of these (and other) factors? That the various SW African groups won't instead be like various groups in the original South Africa and start fighting for equality within South Africa?

I was talking basically the whole way through from 1922 to about 1946 when SA elites start talking about annexation - the idea as originally proposed with SW Africa was that South Africa would be entrusted to guide it from being part of South Africa to having independent statehood. Mind you, this doesn't mean that SW Africa would've been 100% sovereign, since it would've remained under the auspices of the British Commonwealth, but the idea was to move towards independent administration from the start. There's a distinction to be made here between direct rule, indirect rule, and home rule under the auspices of colonialism - you get varying degrees of autonomy, and the idea with the Mandates was to foster the creation of what were essentially home rule governments under the auspices of the wider colonial administration. Even before the intervention of the US on the global stage, the intention, which was pretty openly signposted, was that South African administration of SW Africa was to be a temporary thing until they were ready for independent rule - we just didn't listen, because the Union Government was nice like that
 
A couple of points.
1) The United States had committed by law to independence of the Republic of the Philippines in the 1935 Tydings–McDuffie Act for essentially 10 years after passage. iOTL, *everyone* involved wanted to wait a year (the law basically indicated that Independence should be on a *July 4th*) as the war was still going on and there were still Japanese fighting in the country. In a TL in which the Japanese implode, it will probably be July 4, 1945, if things are just delayed and war starts in 1944 (for example), it conceivably could be 1946 or even 1947, but basically there is no naval war in the Far East on 1945, the Philippines will be a free country on July 4, 1945. (This could have side effects in close by colonial areas, with Malaya seeing both the situation post war in FIC, India and the Philippines and to see what path they want.

2) It is up to the author, but of the countries mentioned, the weakening of Belgium is closest to that of OTL (feels like half the war was fought there), but the question is whether slowing of independence movements in British Africa and French Africa slow things in the Congo as well.

Re point 1, yes I had that in mind which is why I suggested the Philippines *should* become independent in 1945 barring a Japanese-American war.

Given how the Belgians had basically no plans to give Belgian Congo independence until basically the last minute in 1959 I would imagine that with a differing decolonization (slower in some respects, perhaps faster in others, perhaps with more links between the colonial powers and colonies post-"independence") that the Belgian Congo might not gain absolute independence in 1960 but might gain more autonomy in the 1960s.

I was talking basically the whole way through from 1922 to about 1946 when SA elites start talking about annexation - the idea as originally proposed with SW Africa was that South Africa would be entrusted to guide it from being part of South Africa to having independent statehood. Mind you, this doesn't mean that SW Africa would've been 100% sovereign, since it would've remained under the auspices of the British Commonwealth, but the idea was to move towards independent administration from the start. There's a distinction to be made here between direct rule, indirect rule, and home rule under the auspices of colonialism - you get varying degrees of autonomy, and the idea with the Mandates was to foster the creation of what were essentially home rule governments under the auspices of the wider colonial administration. Even before the intervention of the US on the global stage, the intention, which was pretty openly signposted, was that South African administration of SW Africa was to be a temporary thing until they were ready for independent rule - we just didn't listen, because the Union Government was nice like that

Okay, yes so that definitely sounds like things would progress towards independence either without annexation first or (if Smuts has his way) with a period of annexation. It might well be that if there is a Smuts UP government we see annexation followed by perhaps Jim Crow style segregation rather than full on Apartheid and this may collapse in the 1960s.

Another question that arises is would South Africa also become a republic eventually? Because the OTL referendum was relatively close wasn't it (all things considered)? What was Hofmeyr's views on becoming a republic?
 
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Okay, yes so that definitely sounds like things would progress towards independence either without annexation first or (if Smuts has his way) with a period of annexation. It might well be that if there is a Smuts UP government we see annexation followed by perhaps Jim Crow style segregation rather than full on Apartheid and this may collapse in the 1960s.

Another question that arises is would South Africa also become a republic eventually? Because the OTL referendum was relatively close wasn't it (all things considered)? What was Hofmeyr's views on becoming a republic?

Becoming a Republic was a very polarised issue - the hardline Afrikaners wanted it because they bore a grudge against the British, while the moderates and liberals were either tacitly supportive of remaining a Dominion, or a bit apathetic towards it. The UP's official stance was that it pushed for a greater integration between English and Afrikaans South Africa - remaining a dominion was part of that, something that Hoffie was rather fond of as a stance. Under the Nats, we'd become a Republic, under the UP, stay a Crown Dominion, and with full franchise elections, probably become a Republic following the example of India, but remain integrated with the Commonwealth.
 
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No Greek Civil War, at least in the immediate post ITTL War?
If a civil war happened it would be radically different, between Venizelist Republicans and Monarchists. The Communist party is negligible as a factor. 5.73% in the 1936 elections, thoroughly suppressed by the the Metaxas regime afterwards and no WW2 and resistance to legitimize it and bring mass support to EAM/ELAS, and the communists to suborn it. TTL it is still a mostly fringe party under the accusation of supporting the Comintern line of taking away Macedonia from Greece. Not a good situation when even your official newspaper... is being printed by State Security, the latter is running a false central committee (the real one being in prison) and for good measure the socialist motherland is known for working together with the Nazis.
 
Off-line concerns, I assume. He'll post when he has a chance.
Correct. I've managed to do a couple of paragraphs of the next update, but it still needs fleshing out a bit. Between work and home life I'm not optimistic about getting much out before Christmas.
 
Question about this TL: Once WWII is over, would Stalin be interested in going to war against Turkey in order to conquer Kars and Ardahan regions? The USSR did have a claim on these territories after WWII in real life but never actually went to war over them, perhaps in part because it knew that the US would likely defend Turkey:


But would the exhausted Anglo-French actually be willing to militarily commit to defend Turkey's territorial integrity from the USSR in this TL? The US obviously won't.
 
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