A Blunted Sickle - Thread II

5th January 1942
In Copenhagen, the German Plenipotentiary Cécil von Renthe-Fink is invited to Christian VIII's Palace first thing in the morning for “urgent discussions on matters of mutual interest”. On arrival, he is met by both the King and the Prime Minister Thorvald Stauning. There, he is invited to surrender the German forces in Denmark to the Danish government and told that if he does not the Danish government will take “military action” to remove them from Danish soil. He is given until 6am tomorrow to reply.

Wavell warns I Corps (Cunningham) to prepare invest Berlin, while the remaining troops are to head for the Polish border as fast as possible. The Corps artillery will be left with Cunningham's men, partially because of the petrol situation and partially because he is by far the most likely to need it.
In early evening the Humber armoured cars belonging to Recce Platoon, 2 Royal Sussex make contact with elements if II Corps just outside Prötzel. This in theory completes the encirclement of Berlin, although in practice the forces to the east of Berlin are largely patrols rather than a continuous line.

The improving petrol situation allows Alexander's men to start moving again, albeit much more slowly than has been possible for First or Fourth Armies. They slowly start to push south and east into much more broken, wooded terrain against resistance which varies from desultory to non-existent.

Meanwhile, the French advance has picked up even more speed, thanks largely to their supply situation being far better than that of the British. Frankfurt and Stuttgart are both surrounded and entered by patrols, who find little but bed sheets hanging from windows and deserted streets to greet them.
Meanwhile, the rest of the forces are advancing as fast as they can towards their real objectives. The northern force surrounding Frankfurt splits in two, with Touchon's men wheeling left towards Fulda and the British 2nd Army. At the same time Giraud's men head eastwards towards Würzburg, following the valley of the river Main for the most part due to heavy snow on the higher ground. To the south, Requin's men head towards Göppingen, with the intention to reach the Danube at Ulm shortly afterwards. Going here is much slower, due to a combination of the heavily urbanised terrain and the French forces on the right flank having a much poorer allocation of motor transport than those on the left which have been carrying the main effort of fighting the war to date. This is planned to change, with four full armies slated to be transferred to the south to support the occupation of Bavaria, but already lots of bets are being placed as to whether this will ever happen before the end of the war.

Work begins on the Beauharnois plant to install 500MW of additional generation capacity to the existing dam (which was designed from the start in anticipation of additional turbines being fitted), and to reinforce the high voltage power lines to Montreal to take the increased power output. This work is expected to be finished by September.
This is officially needed for the new war industries being built around Montreal which will require a great deal of additional electricity in the near future, and an expected postwar economic boom. These will all be connected by a new high-voltage spine being built along the St Lawrence, and the expansion is in fact mainly intended to support the new uranium enrichment plant to be built there.
One problem here for the Allies is that the more German territory they conquer, the more civilians they have to feed and keep an eye on in terms of law and order, etc.
Plus there's the question of what the heck counts as legal currency (edit: in occupied areas) as the Nazi one presumably crashes very fast?
 
One problem here for the Allies is that the more German territory they conquer, the more civilians they have to feed and keep an eye on in terms of law and order, etc.
Plus there's the question of what the heck counts as legal currency (edit: in occupied areas) as the Nazi one presumably crashes very fast?
Less of a problem than iOTL.

The Norwegians, Dutch and (sort of) the Belgians still have functioning governments, and the first two kept control of portions of their nations. The Danes had their currency tied to the Reichmark 1-1, but it was still *their* currency. So what's left is Luxembourg, Germany, Austria and Poland.
 
^^^^If Nazi control of Denmark is that flacid, then they aren't likely to make any effort to feed civilians anyways. The Danes are on their own either way, for a time. Might the Swedes help some?
 
^^^^If Nazi control of Denmark is that flacid, then they aren't likely to make any effort to feed civilians anyways. The Danes are on their own either way, for a time. Might the Swedes help some?
I wouldn't call it flacid, I'd call it light. Hitler's opinion on the Danes was that they were Aryan, they had "willingly" accepted German control. The Danes at this point may be eating better than the Germans, with food in storage, but little fuel to transport it and certainly no worse.

I have little doubt that the F/S union will help with both Denmark and Norway when the Nazis in each country surrender. Stockholm is not *that* much in the dark as to what is going on and the Nazis are not going to get in the way of an invitation by the Danish PM for a meeting with the Swedish Ambassador.
 
OTL, Denmark had a lot of autonomy during its occupation and was generally prized by the Reich for its food (dairy) production. While they aren't in any danger of starving, they're going to need industrial imports - specifically, oil and coal.

If only there was a good neighbour with a robust industrial sector...
 
OTL, Denmark had a lot of autonomy during its occupation and was generally prized by the Reich for its food (dairy) production. While they aren't in any danger of starving, they're going to need industrial imports - specifically, oil and coal.

If only there was a good neighbour with a robust industrial sector...
For oil and coal at this point, they aren't that much different than most of Northern Germany. However they'll be able to buy on the open market in a way they weren't really able to while under the thumb of the Nazis. My guess is that Denmark will be 80% re-integrated into the world economy by the end of the summer and 90% by the end of the year with the limiting factor being the fact that the German Economy won't be available post war in the way that it was pre-war. Will Sweden have a larger chunk of the Danish Trade in 1942 than it did in 1938, sure.
 
With Denmark, I expect that Iceland will be returned to Danish "Control" within 3 months (and that will go something like)
"Danish Ambassador to the UK": We'd like Iceland
"UK MIlitary": OK, give us 2 days to get everyone back onto our transport ships.
"Danish Ambassador to the UK" Why 2 days?
"UK MIlitary" Some of our soldiers tried Brennivín and are getting over the hangover.
"Danish Ambassador to the UK" Ah, braver than I am. Sounds good.

(I *think* that Britain did not transfer the defense of Iceland to the US iTTL)

As for Greenland, the question is whether Henrik Kauffmann (Danish Ambassador to the US) signed the treaty with the USA "in the name of the king" for the Defense of Greenland or not. I could see it going either way, by June 1941, the Germans were not as dangerous as they were iOTL. That's the author's call.
 
With Denmark, I expect that Iceland will be returned to Danish "Control" within 3 months (and that will go something like)
"Danish Ambassador to the UK": We'd like Iceland
"UK MIlitary": OK, give us 2 days to get everyone back onto our transport ships.
"Danish Ambassador to the UK" Why 2 days?
"UK MIlitary" Some of our soldiers tried Brennivín and are getting over the hangover.
"Danish Ambassador to the UK" Ah, braver than I am. Sounds good.

(I *think* that Britain did not transfer the defense of Iceland to the US iTTL)

As for Greenland, the question is whether Henrik Kauffmann (Danish Ambassador to the US) signed the treaty with the USA "in the name of the king" for the Defense of Greenland or not. I could see it going either way, by June 1941, the Germans were not as dangerous as they were iOTL. That's the author's call.
I thought Iceland was already independent from 1918. If I remember rightly between 1918 and 1944 they were in personal union with Denmark in a manner similar to the Dominions and the UK after the 1931 Statute of Westminster
 
I thought Iceland was already independent from 1918. If I remember rightly between 1918 and 1944 they were in personal union with Denmark in a manner similar to the Dominions and the UK after the 1931 Statute of Westminster
Yep, Kingdom of Iceland which becomes a fully independent republic in OTL 1944
 
Cécil von Renthe-Fink

The issue really isn't Renthe-Fink, it is whether he can *command* the German military to surrender. Renthe-Fink was a German Diplomat *long* before he was a Nazi, both chronologically and in his personal priorities. IOTL, he spent 3 years in the position that he has now and the Danes didn't even ask for him to be put on trial. He made no efforts in regards to the Danish Jews that weren't directly commanded to him by Berlin and even those were not strong efforts.

Heck, you could end up with him as Foreign Minister in whatever level of government the Entente puts together in Germany.
You know your occupation of a country has been pretty desultory when said countries response to it is "Eh, whatever. It's cool dude."
 
You know your occupation of a country has been pretty desultory when said countries response to it is "Eh, whatever. It's cool dude."
I've read a paper that takes things somewhat differently than my previous statement. Basically that he was an anti-semite (of the standard Pre-war German Center-Right variety), but one with a specific job to do, to get the Danish Government which had a specific level of freedom to implement anti-Jewish measures (such as removing Jews from Government positions and significant jobs in National Industries) without the Danish Government ending cooperation over the matter.

https://www.econstor.eu/bitstream/10419/209091/1/cbs-phd2018-44.pdf .
And Best took over after the Telegram Incident, so the command to capture the Danish Jews was during Best's time with the job (post 1943)

At this point in the Story, my guess is that he has accomplished less than half of what he did iOTL, but part of that depends on how desperate the Germans were for a Danish Freikorps. While more desparate for troops, they are less likely to get soldiers willing to fight in the West.
 
Ok. Just completed an epic three day re-read. Pdf, kudos for a most excellent timeline. Love how you dealt with Hitler, looking forward as to how you handle the aftermath & Japan.

Ngf, your maps brilliantly display pdf's troop movements.
 
For any of you unaware of the YouTube Forgotten Weapons channel, it's a valuable resource for thinking about the possible alternate history of firearms. The channel owner, Ian McCollum, is interested in curiosa and failures, also in designs that might have become popular but for accidents of history.

While taking in one of his videos recently I was struck by a thought. The early collapse of Germany is going to prevent some developments that were tremendously influential in postwar firearms development. I'm thinking in particular of the Sturmgewehr 44. IOTL it was was the first assault rifle-type weapon to be accepted into widespread service and put into mass production. It spurred the development of the AK-47 and influenced later designs like the AR-15/M16 as well.

I'm thinking this might slow the postwar move towards small fast bullets and higher mag capacities. There was a lot of resistance to that IOTL, especially in the U.S. where bad decisions by heavy-bullet fans in the armory system effectively sabotaged the M16 clear into the early years of the Vietnam war.

I think ITTL the Kalashnikov line of weapons won't happen at all without Barbarossa to motivate replacing the PPSh-41. That's quite a butterfly flap right there; together with geopolitical conditions favoring somewhat longer survival of the great empires it may mean that nothing fills the role the AK-47 pioneered. That is, the battle rifle that can be built and maintained in Third World conditions and is thus a major enabler for insurgent warfare.
 
For any of you unaware of the YouTube Forgotten Weapons channel, it's a valuable resource for thinking about the possible alternate history of firearms. The channel owner, Ian McCollum, is interested in curiosa and failures, also in designs that might have become popular but for accidents of history.

While taking in one of his videos recently I was struck by a thought. The early collapse of Germany is going to prevent some developments that were tremendously influential in postwar firearms development. I'm thinking in particular of the Sturmgewehr 44. IOTL it was was the first assault rifle-type weapon to be accepted into widespread service and put into mass production. It spurred the development of the AK-47 and influenced later designs like the AR-15/M16 as well.

I'm thinking this might slow the postwar move towards small fast bullets and higher mag capacities. There was a lot of resistance to that IOTL, especially in the U.S. where bad decisions by heavy-bullet fans in the armory system effectively sabotaged the M16 clear into the early years of the Vietnam war.

I think ITTL the Kalashnikov line of weapons won't happen at all without Barbarossa to motivate replacing the PPSh-41. That's quite a butterfly flap right there; together with geopolitical conditions favoring somewhat longer survival of the great empires it may mean that nothing fills the role the AK-47 pioneered. That is, the battle rifle that can be built and maintained in Third World conditions and is thus a major enabler for insurgent warfare.
Check out C&RSenal if you haven't already done so. Massive in-depth look at WW1 small arms that were actually & verifiably used in combat during the war.
 
Some of the changes are already happening - for instance the British commandos are using the SLEM-1 (a proto-FAL) chambered in 6.5mm Swedish Mauser and capable of selective fire. The OTL assault rifle might be a while, but we are seeing more battle rifles with selective fire capability.
The biggest butterfly IMHO that the US isn’t involved and absent something drastic will only have token ground forces. The next most dominant forces in the western world have different requirements (longer range for a start), so I would not expect .223 to be anything more than a footnote, perhaps adopted as OTL to guard nuclear bombers and nothing else.
 
The biggest butterfly IMHO that the US isn’t involved
Which means that when and if the postwar Western alliance has its caliber wars the dominant power won't be holding out for a kissing cousin of .30-06, yes. Once the analysis and doctrine around small-fast-bullet is fully developed, the changeover will happen with much less fuss.

Thing is, though, without the Sturmgewehr as an example to impress the crap out of everybody the front end of that conditional would take longer. There is a large range of plausible values for "longer".
 
For Britain and France, do they have more casualties in WWI or ttl's WWII?

The French probably have more casualties iTTL's WWII than iOTL WWII, but they still have National Pride.

Randy
 
For Britain and France, do they have more casualties in WWI or ttl's WWII?

The French probably have more casualties iTTL's WWII than iOTL WWII, but they still have National Pride.

Randy
"still have their National Pride" ?
They still have their whole country ! And this time, without the war exhaustion, they will be able to properly occupy Germany for the decades to come. Saarland would be occupied for longer then OTL for the reparation, if not outright anexed into France and the sentence "oui, monsieur l'officier" is going to be commonly known by the german peoples of this era.
 
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