A Blunted Sickle - Thread II

"still have their National Pride" ?
They still have their whole country ! And this time, without the war exhaustion, they will be able to properly occupy Germany for the decades to come. Saarland would be occupied for longer then OTL for the reparation, if not outright anexed into France and the sentence "oui, monsieur l'officier" is going to be commonly known by the german peoples of this era.
We don't use "monsieur l'officier". We use the shorthand "mon officer".
Naval personnel don't get the "mon" because Napoleon said, after Trafalgar, they no longer deserved to be refered to as "monsieur". :p
 
Plus, France hasn't spent 3-4 years being looted by Germany and worn down by occupation and guerilla warfare.

And the Colonial Empire endured essentially untouched. They didn't suffer the twin prestige blows of losing the Metropole and being bullied around by Japan.
 
Which means that when and if the postwar Western alliance has its caliber wars the dominant power won't be holding out for a kissing cousin of .30-06, yes. Once the analysis and doctrine around small-fast-bullet is fully developed, the changeover will happen with much less fuss.

Thing is, though, without the Sturmgewehr as an example to impress the crap out of everybody the front end of that conditional would take longer. There is a large range of plausible values for "longer".
perhaps the western block adopts 7.5mm French?
 
"still have their National Pride" ?
They still have their whole country ! And this time, without the war exhaustion, they will be able to properly occupy Germany for the decades to come. Saarland would be occupied for longer then OTL for the reparation, if not outright anexed into France and the sentence "oui, monsieur l'officier" is going to be commonly known by the german peoples of this era.
Well, they lost Paris, so there is *some* level of loss of National Pride, but of course not as bad as the Germans. (Who at this point could easily be conquered by the French even if everyone else went home).

So iOTL, damage to Pride was about equal in 1871 and WWII and minimal in WWI, iTTL, WWII is a bit more damaging to Pride than WWI, but no where near 1871.

The other question to be answered by the author is, "While there will not be formal zones, will it still be considerably more useful to learn French in Munich than in Lubeck?"

As for annexation, while Poland is likely to get some of Germany, would the borders change in the West?
 
Plus, France hasn't spent 3-4 years being looted by Germany and worn down by occupation and guerilla warfare.

And the Colonial Empire endured essentially untouched. They didn't suffer the twin prestige blows of losing the Metropole and being bullied around by Japan.
Agreed on the first. As for the second, why "essentially untouched vs. untouched"? Are you referring to the "accidental" bombing of the railroad between Vietnam and China?
 
Hedging my bets, mostly. It's a complicated world.
True. As far as I can tell though, at *this* point in the story, there are only three powers on earth that would *attempt* to bully France: the US, Japan and the USSR. For the US, the issue would have to be in the Caribbean or St. Pierre/Miq , both of which are ASB for at least a decade, if not beyond. The USSR doesn't border any French posessions (and I don't think really any French interests), leaving Japan and FIC as the only areas. The Thai, iTTL, are no more going to push hard for the restoration of their borders than they are to be the first to the Moon.

(Would the French support Turkey iTTL if the Soviets demanded the entire Eastern end of Turkey giving it a border with Syria??? Hmm)
 
Well, they lost Paris, so there is *some* level of loss of National Pride, but of course not as bad as the Germans. (Who at this point could easily be conquered by the French even if everyone else went home).

So iOTL, damage to Pride was about equal in 1871 and WWII and minimal in WWI, iTTL, WWII is a bit more damaging to Pride than WWI, but no where near 1871.

The other question to be answered by the author is, "While there will not be formal zones, will it still be considerably more useful to learn French in Munich than in Lubeck?"

As for annexation, while Poland is likely to get some of Germany, would the borders change in the West?
No occupation zones? That seems very odd given that even after WWI there were occupation zones in the Rhineland and zones would be necessary anyway since the British and French armies are still separate entities and neither is subordinated to the other.
 
No occupation zones? That seems very odd given that even after WWI there were occupation zones in the Rhineland and zones would be necessary anyway since the British and French armies are still separate entities and neither is subordinated to the other.
I think all of Germany is the joint Ally occupation zone.
 
Thing is, though, without the Sturmgewehr as an example to impress the crap out of everybody the front end of that conditional would take longer. There is a large range of plausible values for "longer".
They’ve realised that selective fire with a low recoil round is a good thing. What they don’t have is a mass produced example to copy from of the “best” solution (a short fat round with limited range). Indeed, two major powers have colonial empires which will probably drive them to something with long range section fire capability for places like the Khyber pass.

For Britain and France, do they have more casualties in WWI or ttl's WWII?
Will sit down and work it out at some point - sketch version is that the British are about the same but distributed differently, while the French are a lot lower.

perhaps the western block adopts 7.5mm French?
Directly postwar I’m assuming the first rounds tried are 7.5mm French (short) and 6.5mm Swedish Mauser as it is. Both will probably not last long.

The other question to be answered by the author is, "While there will not be formal zones, will it still be considerably more useful to learn French in Munich than in Lubeck?"
What I have in mind is that there will be formal zones, but they will be mostly administrative rather than some form of inner German border.

Agreed on the first. As for the second, why "essentially untouched vs. untouched"? Are you referring to the "accidental" bombing of the railroad between Vietnam and China?
Lots of colonial troops killed in action, plus various political consequences of them fighting in the west where the public see them doing it.
 
What I have in mind is that there will be formal zones, but they will be mostly administrative rather than some form of inner German border.
That makes sense. I suppose that you are considering the Entente establishing something akin to the Allied Control Council that was created iOTL.

As you know that I like making maps, I took the liberty of drawing up a proposal for the occupation zones based on the current operational zones of the British and French armies and the pre-war German provincial boundaries. This has the British occupying northern Germany and the French occupying southern Germany and Austria, with a joint occupation of Berlin. I also show a Polish zone that includes German provinces of East Prussia, Upper Silesia, and Posen-West Prussia.

Under this proposal, the British and French zones have equal populations of about 34 million each, using the 1939 census. The Polish zone and Berlin have populations of 4 million each. Is this close to what you had in mind?
 

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I’m envisaging Dutch, Belgian and Norwegian zones at least, although the Belgian zone is probably quite small. The Poles will probably have their hands full however, so I’m not sure that they’ll have their own zone.
 
I’m envisaging Dutch, Belgian and Norwegian zones at least, although the Belgian zone is probably quite small. The Poles will probably have their hands full however, so I’m not sure that they’ll have their own zone.
That probably means cutting up the old provinces, then; Hannover and the Rhine Provinces are too big and critical to give to anyone but the British or French, but are also the sensible things to let the Dutch or Belgians occupy. Sure you could give the Dutch Westphalia/Hesse-Nassau/Hesse, but that's one weird zone. Much better to cut Hannover in half and give the Dutch Westphalia, Oldenburg, and the western half of Hannover up to the Weser (and maybe some bits of the Rhineland where a lower-Frankish dialect is spoken, like around Kleve).
 
That probably means cutting up the old provinces, then; Hannover and the Rhine Provinces are too big and critical to give to anyone but the British or French, but are also the sensible things to let the Dutch or Belgians occupy. Sure you could give the Dutch Westphalia/Hesse-Nassau/Hesse, but that's one weird zone. Much better to cut Hannover in half and give the Dutch Westphalia, Oldenburg, and the western half of Hannover up to the Weser (and maybe some bits of the Rhineland where a lower-Frankish dialect is spoken, like around Kleve).
I wouldn’t think that would be a major problem - ultimately the place being occupied is “Germany”, and in OTL they managed just fine by splitting West Berlin into three occupation zones. Fundamentally all that changes will be the language of the occupying troops, rather than the policy of the occupying forces.
 
I wouldn’t think that would be a major problem - ultimately the place being occupied is “Germany”, and in OTL they managed just fine by splitting West Berlin into three occupation zones. Fundamentally all that changes will be the language of the occupying troops, rather than the policy of the occupying forces.
It would be a major problem for ngf's mapmaking ;)
 
I wouldn’t think that would be a major problem - ultimately the place being occupied is “Germany”, and in OTL they managed just fine by splitting West Berlin into three occupation zones. Fundamentally all that changes will be the language of the occupying troops, rather than the policy of the occupying forces.
OTL they found that reviving the economies of France and the rest of western/northern Europe required also the reintegration of Germany's economy. ( Or at least the three Western Occupied Zones) To serve as both market for goods and source of coal, iron, machine tools etc.

This would probably be easier here with an Anglo-French dominated "Control Committee". This could allow intra-Zone trade while maintaining political divisions between them.
 
I’m envisaging Dutch, Belgian and Norwegian zones at least, although the Belgian zone is probably quite small. The Poles will probably have their hands full however, so I’m not sure that they’ll have their own zone.
This time around, I can see the Allies just giving the Poles East Prussia including Danzig & the Corridor for keeps. Assuming Stalin can be kept out of that part of the area and out of eastern Poland, that is.
Denmark could have Schleswig Holstein down to the Kiel Canal with a Canal Zone under the joint control of the Allies.
I would also love to Luxembourg get its own Occupation Zone. Mostly because everyone keeps forgetting about it & the Germans HAVE invaded it twice in the last thirty years. They deserve the chance to have a little payback.
 
OTL they found that reviving the economies of France and the rest of western/northern Europe required also the reintegration of Germany's economy. ( Or at least the three Western Occupied Zones) To serve as both market for goods and source of coal, iron, machine tools etc.

This would probably be easier here with an Anglo-French dominated "Control Committee". This could allow intra-Zone trade while maintaining political divisions between them.
To some extent this is true, but at the same time it isn't nearly as much so as in our timeline. The German occupation of France massively re-oriented Western Europe to trade terms with Germany during the war, particularly in vital categories such as coal. This was a huge change from the 1930s where in many ways Western Europe looking at trade statistics almost feels like an island, with extremely little trade across the border into Germany: their political economies were based much more on global imperial networks and oceanic trade with the broader world than European integration.

Without the massive German occupation of OTL, this political economy wouldn't be shifted to nearly the same degree. Reviving the German economy will still be important, but the pre-war patterns of trade will still hold and will make its quick reintegration less vital. I still expect it to happen eventually, as PDF has explained his vision is that the Germans will be an economic giant perhaps even more than OTL but without any teeth whatsoever.
 
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