You know what would be cool (unrealistic, but still)? If Stalin understood that with the Entente at his doorstep, the lack of a great patriotic war and the general dissatisfaction of the people in the union he can’t use the old methods anymore and tries to build a cult of personality on respect rather than fear. That would make ITL heaven vs OTL
A Blunted Sickle - Thread II
- Thread starter pdf27
- Start date
Stalin has just spent the last decade conducting a democide that ITTL is without peer in a modern country, with to date upwards of ten million dead. I don't think Stalin cares to change from fear when it clearly works so well. Indeed, without the shock of the successes of the Nazi invasion to undermine the apparent strength of the Stalinist state, I don't see how anyone inside the system would think they have any chance of changing it.
The Red Army and the NKVD were the last two areas of the Soviet construct to face comprehensive purges, both under the supervision of Ezhov. At this stage everyone knows that if they get ideas above their station, not only will they disappear, but so will their family, their friends, their colleagues, and so on. Without the German invasion, this edifice of terror looks rock solid.
Artaxerxes
Banned
The thing about these regimes is they always look rock solid... until they suddenly collapse. I can very much see something give way with a much larger pool of young men alive and well combined with a lack of Great Patriotic War propaganda enforcing loyalty to the motherland providing the breeding ground for something.
I'm not sure where @pdf27 is going with the USSR but I look forward to seeing where he takes it.
marathag
Banned
Though at this time OTL, the purge of the VVS, the Soviet Air Force was ongoing.
Tupolev had just been sent to the Gulag, with Arkhangelsky taking over the design bureau, and using his name
I think the test of the Great Patriotic War IOTL shows that Soviet system was pretty “rock solid” at this time and I can’t see how *not*having to endure the largest invasion in history would destabilise it earlier. Furthermore there’s the fact that here the standard of living in the Soviet Union is improving and will presumably continue to do so for the foreseeable future. The third five year plan will be allowed to continue in its stated goals without the disruption of having to prepare for war and then the war itself, alongside everything received from the Germans in terms of industrial expertise and technology.
marathag
Banned
You mean like when in Summer 1941, the Nazis were initially greeted as liberators?
Totally rock solid
You mean like when in Summer 1941, the Nazis were initially greeted as liberators?
Totally rock solid
Naturally when a regime’s been removed by an external force it’s a different story but there weren't many cases of internal uprisings during the Great Patriotic War and even when they did happen they were usually far less threatening than the regime’s disproportionate (and frankly brutal) response to them.
Also worth considering is that most outpouring of support for the German invasion came from within the territories annexed since 1939, where the Soviets were still trying to root out opposition and establish themselves as legitimate rulers. Studies of the pre-1939 regions show that the usual reaction of the broad Soviet populace to the start of the war was generally one of immediate support for their government and hatred of the Germans in a classic "rally around the flag" effect. This is hardly surprising: even those Soviet citizens who didn't much like the Soviet government still viewed it as the legitimate government and that carries a lot of weight when it comes to mobilizing popular support.
I'd forgotten how much of the Arab world was controlled by the French at this point.
For the other end of the scale, not being whiplashed between Vichy and the Allies as much is likely to make Moncef Bey's time as Bey longer presuming he takes the position after the death of Ahmed Bey.
For the other end of the scale, not being whiplashed between Vichy and the Allies as much is likely to make Moncef Bey's time as Bey longer presuming he takes the position after the death of Ahmed Bey.
marathag
Banned
Most of the pictures of the festive greetings were from Ukraine.
One wonders what the Soviets did in the preceding decade in that SSR(and part of the Union since 1919) to make them think Uncle Joe and his cohorts weren't the greatest leaders they could possibly have, and that Germanic Invaders would be the better choice?
I'm presuming this is sarcasm, but since it isn't marked...
The Holodomor.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_(proposed_Pacific_state)
Reading around, it looks like there was a serious and armed movement to create a new American state in Cascadia, but it was stopped by Pearl Harbour.
No Pearl Harbour ITTL though!
Reading around, it looks like there was a serious and armed movement to create a new American state in Cascadia, but it was stopped by Pearl Harbour.
No Pearl Harbour ITTL though!
marathag
Banned
So the Germans were only greeted warmly on ex-Polish territory, is that what you're claiming?Specifically the parts of Ukraine that prior to 1939 were part of Poland.
How did the mostly Belorussian area act, when 'liberated'
from Poland under Soviet administration ? half as many flowers?
You'll always be able to find at least some people who will be willing to collaborate wherever you go, but on average the Germans arrival was only celebrated with mass celebration on either ex-Polish territory or the Baltic States (in the latter case, there were even pro-German uprisings). Further east of that, the prevailing reaction from most Soviet citizens to the arrival of German forces ranged from apathetic to hostile.
It's not like this was a unique phenomenon to the Soviets. There are innumerable examples (in no small part because the overwhelming majority of rulers throughout history have been oppressive autocrats of some variety), but we can start off with Nazi Germany, which was a totalitarian state that took away the liberties of its citizens, crushed their consumer economy, killed half a million of them directly, and got another 4.5 to 5 million of them killed in a war of choice which it started. And right to the end the great bulk of Germans carried out its policies passionately even when they otherwise professed to hating it. Similarly, the pre-war Polish governments slide into authoritarianism during the 30s also caused serious discontent. There was a mass strike by millions of peasants in 1937 which the government put down by violently oppressing the peasants. This solved nothing, and the unrest was still bubbling in the lead up to WWII. And yet those same peasants put aside their disagreements with the government and formed a united front against the Germans in 1939, because that's what people usually do when the government they believe is theirs is attacked by an outsider, whether they like the government or not. The cases where they don't are so notable precisely because they're the exception. The power of a state imbued with legitimacy by it's citizens to convince those same citizens to do what it wants should not be underestimated.
How did the mostly Belorussian area act, when 'liberated'
from Poland under Soviet administration ? half as many flowers?
Probably about as welcoming as the pre-'39 Polish territories of western Belorussia, which I can't imagine would be that much different from Western Ukraine or the Baltics...
Serious, probably, armed, not in a way that really scared anyone. And wasn't going to get a positive vote in either Sacramento or Salem. It isn't like they picked up the concept in 1945...
Actually there was some collaboration especially in Western Belarus. Auxiliary Police and Home Guard were formed. Interestingly Home Guard were issued weapons only during exercises to prevent desertions with weapons to partisans. Hope of Belarusians was Independence same as Ukrainians. This however wasn’t in German playbook.