another great update , so the Soviets are the 1st on the Moon , And all those landers and same signal , What have they discovered, And what Will NASA do to GEt there. Cant hardly wait for the next part
..so the Soviets are the 1st on the Moon , ...
oh i'm sorry, Shevek23
i forgot to mention that ASTO L3-Complex not enter circular 150km moon orbit, but a in elliptical orbit of 150 x70 km for lower fuel consumption on Block-D
Well, huh, one of the sources (EA, Anatoly Zak, or Wikipedia) claimed 5 cubic meters habitable volume. Mark Wade then showed a picture of just how much junk would be cluttering this "habitable" space and I can well believe it includes volumes marked as equipment bays. Much of the much greater volume the LM upper stage has is clearly non-habitable equipment bays, and of course the LM ascent engine sits in the middle of the cabin too....
on LK yes it got 5 cubic meter volume but that is ENTIRE Craft, LK Crew compartment is pokey...
That's clearer to me now. Redesigning it for later missions for a single cosmonaut to enjoy that might be feasible though, if the clutter of equipment could be stowed away (and if the need for some of that in the form of restraints could be eliminated by making the LK more capable of dealing with center of mass variations). I think there is some margin to do this for one cosmonaut within the limits of all-kerlox, single launch missions.A shirtsleeve environment for Comosnaut had LK NOT
Those into this thread may like this http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...-men-walked-on-moon?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur
Those into this thread may like this http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...-men-walked-on-moon?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur
Obviously, Mueller didn't have a keen sense of where the politics were moving on Capitol Hill...
But you can certainly see where some of the mystique of reusable shuttles was coming from in those days. Perhaps we should blame some of it on Stanley Kubrick.
"we're pushing the pedal to metal, we can’t go faster“
"and from the crew of Apollo 8, we close with good night, good luck, a Merry Christmas and God bless all of you - all of you on the good Earth“
One correction: Apollo 10's Snoopy was actually LM-4, not LM-3. Looks like just a typo.
Holding off and running the F mission for Apollo 10 is certainly the prudent move. But I do think that if the Soviets are breathing down NASA's neck, there would have been a serious fight to give Apollo 10 LM-5 and attempt the landing in June. As it was, in OTL, there was a scuffle over it.
Thank Athelstane, was Typo by my
yes Apollo 10 mission was necessary to test LM and even that, were Problems in succeeding mission
Apollo 11 a mission step on Checklist let to Computer memory overflow from landing Radar data.
Apollo 14 got almost Communication brake down and Abort Mode got activated during landing.
Apollo 15 the LM accent stage back side was damage during lift off from Moon exposing partial the electrical system of LM to space.
NASA was only able to land soonest on the moon on July 24, 1969 and culprit was Lunar Module !
I agree with you that the pressure and agonizing would be there....
I *do* think that, at the least, there would be a very vigorous debate to trying a June landing with Apollo 10. ...I'd include at least mention of that debate if I were you...but that's just me.
These recriminations will certainly prevail in the short run. As people calm down though I daresay that a rising number of thoughtful commentators, both government and public, will observe that JFK never vowed we should beat anyone else to the Moon, only that we Americans do it "before the decade is out." That is sort of disingenuous since absolutely everyone understood the Moon landing proposal as an attempt to show up the Russians and thus a challenge to them, but it would be possible and not unreasonable to try to spin the American program as the methodical progress toward a self-chosen goal that had nothing to do with playing catch-up with others. And to be sure, Eisenhower had his own approved space program, and conceivably if the Soviet space challenge did not exist at all the US government might have funded, in some form, at some pace, the slow, systematic development of satellite launches, space probes, and eventually human missions to orbit and beyond.As I say, however: If the Soviets make a landing in their early July launch window, and just barely beat Neil and Buzz by several days, and it becomes known that NASA had a viable option for an Apollo 10 landing and refused to take it, I think Paine loses his job, and and he probably won't be alone. The delays posed by the Apollo 1 fire will get dredged up again, too.
All that money spent, all that effort, and the U.S. lost the most important race of all - and they had a chance to win it. Not even a permanent lunar base will efface the defeat. Not really fair, but politics are rarely about fairness.
___
* Of course, this raises what the odds of an abort or worse failure on the first attempted Soviet landing would be, since they wouldn't even have had the kind of experience and practice that NASA had with its hardware (and let us not even speak about Soviet quality control issues)...I'll wager it would have to be around that range, too...
Given the points of failure debugged OTL, I rather hope the advocates of the methodical, careful course prevail--only in hindsight would that appear to be necessary though, and then only to the judicious, detail-focused scholar; in wide focus, the cries that Apollo 10 should have made the landing in hindsight will tend to drown out careful, critical analysis.
These recriminations will certainly prevail in the short run. As people calm down though I daresay that a rising number of thoughtful commentators, both government and public, will observe that JFK never vowed we should beat anyone else to the Moon, only that we Americans do it "before the decade is out." That is sort of disingenuous since absolutely everyone understood the Moon landing proposal as an attempt to show up the Russians and thus a challenge to them, but it would be possible and not unreasonable to try to spin the American program as the methodical progress toward a self-chosen goal that had nothing to do with playing catch-up with others.
I know there are some people who think the canon versions of 2001 (text and cinematic) suggest a massive militarization of space, but there isn't any evidence of that I can glean from either source--to be fair it has been a long time since I last read the book and I suppose there is some casual mention of space-based weapons there.
So if a Soviet first landing does occur as yet another gut punch to US pride, it seems that the Americans will recover in the longer run without going completely nuts.
Bear in mind, the Soviet program as described here (and to a great extent, as Mishin did sketch out the plan OTL, albeit later) has some rather costly safety features. For instance, the Zond-11 mission, a manned circumlunar flight, included an operational LK that was landed, unmanned, on the Moon. It was guided down by a pre-positioned Lunokhod that had previously scouted its zone and located the optimal landing site within it.
As a partisan, I'd sure rather see Humphrey win! That might be short-sighted, as unintended consequences of his election might lead to an even worse TL than OTL I suppose. My gut feeling though, watching a re-run of Star Trek's "Mirror, Mirror" episode in the later 1980s, was that Nixon's election OTL was the POD that put OTL on track for the Mirror 'verse Empire....
Of course, Michel wants to really jumpstart space exploration in general and lunar exploration in particular, and I do get that for that to happen, NASA needs more Soviet successes to keep its manned program juiced, to keep the race going. For that to happen, though - and this is an aside to Michel - I think that has a better chance of happening with Humphrey winning in '68 than Nixon. Which is a very plausible outcome, given how close the election was. Humphrey felt more investment in Apollo, without all the anti-Kennedy baggage that Nixon carried around. Conversely, detente would have been more difficult for Humphrey to pull off than for Nixon.
I think that's the end of 2001 actually, and at least some of the weapons are also launched from Earth. One in orbit is enough to break sharply with OTL though, and in an unfortunate direction.In 2010 (book, at least), there's mention of Bowman's new energy form detonating an orbiting nuclear warhead when he returns to Earth, I believe.
But the book and movie are very far apart in the case of 2010; I prefer Clarke's own canon--though it does foreshadow a renewed Sino-Soviet split. Americans and Russians cooperate pretty smoothly in Clarke's book, and even the Chinese are not so much aggressive as secretive.And the movie really boosts the Cold War angle, so it's hard to believe there's not some space militarization there.
It really looks like quite a lot of trust and cooperation there. To be sure--given the back story Sislov (IIRC) gives, about the allegedly malfunctioning Soviet surface transport being refused permission to call on Clavius base, maybe what is going there is a bit of diplomatic tit-for-tat--the Soviets normally do go up and down via their own orbital station (which may or may not be in the station numbering sequence) but citing some absurd reason claimed a necessity for Sislov's party, carefully chosen to include a closer friend of Floyd's than Sislov himself (and all women except their boss, for more manipulative posturing) with the intention of intercepting Floyd. It also puts the American commitment to open sharing of facilities in an alleged emergency to the test; are the Americans going cold and dark on them across the board, or is something peculiar up at Clavius? (I personally think in the story that the Soviets aren't fooled by the plague cover story, in part because they have human assets planted at Clavius who can confirm that that "rumor" is disinformation--but American security suspects them enough to keep them out of the loop on the true situation. Perhaps one of them, maybe one the CIA missed or one it would reveal too much to keep out, is at the conference Floyd holds there though. I would also think they've got some telemetry from the satellite that finds TMA-1 in the first place.)Likewise, there's no reason to think this sort of thing is confined to orbiting weapons systems - if both the US and USSR have independent extensive lunar bases with large staffs, there's some probability that they have some kind of defensive capabilities...though the fact that both are using Space Station V as a way station for at least some of their lunar transport needs suggests that there's also some cooperation, too.
A Boy and His Dog said:"...Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Kennedy, Kennedy, Kennedy, Kennedy...
..all of that doesn't make the powered descent any less risky, and the LK lander was not a very robust system. There are so many things that can go wrong... It was tricky enough for the Apollo LM. A last minute abort for either lander in the final approach would have been especially dangerous, and then there's the question of rendezvous, something the Soviets struggled with more.
And in this timeline, the Soviets have not tested their lander in lunar orbit. I don't know what the risk percentages really are, but I have to think there would have been a very significant failure risk.