2001: A Space Time Odyssey (Version 2)

another great update:D , so the Soviets are the 1st on the Moon , And all those landers and same signal , What have they discovered, And what Will NASA do to GEt there. Cant hardly wait for the next part
 
..so the Soviets are the 1st on the Moon , ...

We don't know that yet. They still might be; the last flight was the penultimate for a nominal L3 manned LK landing. The Lunokhod is in place; the backup LK is landed, in place. Neither piece of equipment can be counted on to last for many months; I read in Encyclopedia Astronautica or maybe another source I checked yesterday that the LK had a stand-by endurance of one month. So the Soviets are committed to either finishing the job within a month of the Zond-11 mission landing the LK (or less, if the month countdown started with launch of that mission's N-1) or calling it all an Apollo 10 type test and having to launch another Lunokhod and backup LK delivery (probably at another site though there is something to say for sticking with this one) later before the actual manned landing.

Considering they know NASA's schedule, they are almost certainly aiming to beat it. Something could still go wrong--the second N-1 might fail on launch, or other failures leading to mission abort--with a good chance of cosmonaut survival in all cases. Their launch abort system works; a Soyuz 7K-LOK (and presumably its ATL counterpart) is a big Soyuz with lots of fuel, enough to launch from LLO to Earth with margin to spare so if the G or D block fails at any point they can ditch their own LK and abort to Earth return, or even (comparable to NASA practice, which was to salvage as much mission as they could) take some time orbiting the Moon first then go home (if the D block fails late in the braking sequence or in attempting to lower the LK down to the Moon). Something could go wrong during the Lunar landing attempt--again the mission profiles indicate the LK had enough capacity to abort the landing at any time and return to orbit; it also has a backup engine. With a backup engine it seems unlikely the cosmonaut would be stranded on the moon after a successful landing, unless the primary engine fails by blowing up. Which could happen I guess.:eek: And then with the landing cosmonaut safely aboard the Soyuz-LOK after spacewalking back, possibly the Soyuz main engine fails in a catastrophic enough way to prevent its backups from working...

But they have had more time to test all this than they had by this date OTL, and I'm not aware of any Soyuz engine ever failing in orbit throughout the last half-century. Plenty of other bad things happened to Soviet spacecraft--they could also still have a fire aboard as on Mir for instance, or the descent capsule hatch might fail to seal as with the return from the first successful Salyut mission OTL.

(I don't know whether the Soyuz testing program has exposed that particular flaw, or if the ATL design being less rushed and more professionally done than OTL the flaw does not exist--will it be doctrine for all returning cosmonauts to be in pressure suits just in case, or will they reenter in shirtsleeves?)

Barring accidents though--I'd say they are clearly going to land a cosmonaut very soon.

Whether they can or can't do it before Apollo does is at this point probably in the hands of Sir Isaac Newton. It would be a matter of launch windows; having used one for Zond 11, does another open up for them, launching into high inclination orbit from Baikonur, before it opens for the Americans launching from Cape Canaveral into a lower inclination? It would have to open well before, because OTL anyway the Soviets were planning to use low-energy transfer orbits, near to Hohmann, for missions to circle or land on the Moon.

That doesn't save them a lot of delta-V on the translunar injection--a little bit but the difference between minimum energy to just barely squeak by EM Lagrange 1 and escape velocity from the Earth-Moon system is pretty small, a matter of 50 m/sec or so versus 3100+ for the minimum; Apollo will use something intermediate that will save them a day or so reaching the Lunar vicinity. They lose on transit time, by that day or so. Where they really gain with the minimum energy transit is delta-V to lunar orbit, saving 150 or more m/sec versus the Apollo type transit--both ways.

But it means if they have to wait until the very moment the Americans choose to do their TLI burn, they will lose; they have to launch from Earth orbit to the Moon some time earlier to hope to get there ahead of the Yankees.

I really don't understand the pragmatics of launch windows to the Moon; I would think one occurs for a craft in parking orbit once every orbit, which is to say once every hour and a half to two hours. Obviously this is not true and so there is something I am not understanding about transits to the Moon.

So I really have no clue if the Soviets have an earlier window open to them sooner than the Americans do, much less how much sooner.

All I know, all we know following this TL, is: 1) the entire L3 surface complex is now in place, waiting for the second, manned LK to land, and that soon, within a month if it is not to be wasted;
2) we've seen a picture of two N-1s elevated ready to launch on two neighboring pads.

Since the authors are interlacing posts on the American and Soviet programs, with the occasional "meanwhile back in the non-space world" update as well, I won't even predict the next update will reveal the answer!:eek::p They might string us along for days or weeks with filler updates, approaching mid-July with geometrically smaller time frame updates like Xeno's arrow approaching the tree.

But that arrow looks to be aimed straight at a manned LK landing, "soon" in the latest post's timeframe if not our Hitchcockian suspended perspective. The arrow is in fact ready to be shot.
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I delayed an earlier reply to the authors by speculating a lot on the meaning of the ATL relationship between Russia and China. One bit of that--are the Soviets now able to launch to lower inclinations than 55 degrees from Baikonur, now that the Chinese are their friends again?

Or is the relationship still touchy enough that they don't want to provoke pointed questions from their once-again comrades in Beijing about say, inviting Chinese to join the cosmonaut program (as equals, not as guests) and/or supporting a Chinese space launcher buildup.

Do the Chinese even want to buy in to Soviet designs, or will pride urge them to develop their own distinct designs and launchers?

Vice versa, might a permanent Sino-Soviet confederation be better served by a common launch site at Lop Nor or even in southeast China, at tropical latitudes? (Probably not the latter since Taiwan and their American patrons are downrange--but Lop Nor and launches including lower inclination orbits over tropical Chinese downrange might be quite advantageous).

In general I'm convinced that, other things being equal, the lower the latitude of a launch site, the better. There is a very slight penalty to be paid for attempting to launch to a polar orbit from an equatorial base, but it is trivial compared to the near-impossibility of achieving low orbits of inclination a lot lower than one's launch site latitude.

If the Soviets can be confident they are truly now best friends forever with the Chinese regime, then despite their huge sunk investment in Baikonur and the logistical challenges of supporting Lop Nor from either Soviet or Chinese developed regions, I'd think going in with them on a Chinese location at much lower latitude for their launch site would be worth planning for. It would tend to appease the Chinese, soothing their feelings at being backward in the space race on their own, to flatter them with trusting them with the site. Plus of course big hardware like N-1 or whatever behemoths might follow it would pretty much have to be assembled on site (barring Soviet airship wank, which I'm all for by the way--:p--no, seriously--:):eek:) so it would be tantamount to giving the Chinese everything the Russians have with a big red comradely ribbon on it, decorated with a hammer, sickle, and five yellow stars too.

I suspect it is too early for that kind of gift, but surely the Chinese are already dropping hints that Soviet help in developing Lop Nor is quite welcome, any time they want to offer.

And flights taking advantage of the lowest inclinations Baikonur can achieve might make those hints come more often, with cooler, tighter smiles and some throat clearing.

So I'm guessing for now Soviet launches are limited as per OTL, for the moment anyway. Look later for joint Sino-Soviet sorties from Sichuan!:D
 
oh i'm sorry, Shevek23
i forgot to mention that ASTO L3-Complex not enter circular 150km moon orbit, but a in elliptical orbit of 150 x70 km for lower fuel consumption on Block-D

That's the sort of complexity I tend to forget, since I'm actually having trouble with basic stuff like using Wikipedia figures for the surface gravity, radius, and escape velocities given for Earth and Moon match up to other figures such as orbital velocities.:eek:

Also, as I understand it from various sites, OTL the plan was to initially enter an elliptical orbit such as you describe but then to circularize it at the lower altitude, and then again to bring it down to a 70 by 14 km altitude orbit, the LK being braked by the Block D from that low pericynthion (to 4 km at burnout with it still going some 100 m/sec or so and thus crashing about 4 km downrage); the LK would make it down to the surface from there on less than 300 kg propellant. All of the above except the final LK descent would be done by Block D, and pushing not just the LK but the Soyuz LOK as well, so I don't know why they wouldn't just brake into the 70 km circular orbit in the first place!

Also--would the Soyuz raise its pericynthion again for safety? It won't match up to the landing site after a day anyway, and it would be easier I'd think for the LK to match a steady circular orbit at 70 km up than the higher periapsis speed of an elliptical orbit that swings down to 14 km.

Or would the shift to the 14 km periapsis be done with just the LK alone, leaving the Soyuz in a circular orbit all along?

...
on LK yes it got 5 cubic meter volume but that is ENTIRE Craft, LK Crew compartment is pokey...
Well, huh, one of the sources (EA, Anatoly Zak, or Wikipedia) claimed 5 cubic meters habitable volume. Mark Wade then showed a picture of just how much junk would be cluttering this "habitable" space and I can well believe it includes volumes marked as equipment bays. Much of the much greater volume the LM upper stage has is clearly non-habitable equipment bays, and of course the LM ascent engine sits in the middle of the cabin too.

As far as I can figure the empty, dry mass of the LK after climbing to lunar orbit again to dock with the Soyuz would be about 75 percent that of the Apollo Ascent Module. When I was trying to figure whether 95 tons in orbit was enough or not, it seemed to me a future upgrade of the LK could match the Ascent Module's dry mass and still be included in the total throw weight of an optimally sized G Block, without compromising the Soyuz LOK. Which is itself quite adequately sized for two cosmonauts; packing in a third is probably doable considering that Soyuz was designed around three OTL and managed, in the later 70s or 80s, to find room for all three in the descent module even while wearing pressure suits. (For three cosmonauts of course, retaining the Orbital Module for habitability all the way back to Earth is a must!) Probably a third cosmonaut would warrant a further upgrade in Soyuz-LOK mass, but by a modest amount that still leaves room for where it is most needed--the LK.

But I agree, trying to push the LK beyond its current "poky" limits is not a great idea unless there is a radical change. Either the N-1 gets upgraded with hydrogen-burning stages (G block first, I'd think, to get more value out of 95 tons, then perhaps V Block and a bigger G block to use the greater orbited mass--messing around with the B block means tossing the N launch system out the window since a hydrogen B Block would be no good as a first stage for N-2--and making a hydrogen V block means losing the commonality with your "Soyuz" N-3 first stage too, but then I don't consider taking the N system that far a great idea anyway).

Or of course use two launches--which you are already doing to supply the back-up LK.

Along those lines, what if there were a great big two-part LK, most of the mass of which is delivered to Lunar orbit as the full payload to LLO of a complete N-1, the other portion of which rides along with the Soyuz-LOK to join it? Now it is the Soyuz that is the pacing item--you can't send more than 3 cosmonauts, and you can't land more than 2 of them because the third must stay with the orbiting craft. But the 2 who land can land in a great big ship that can stay for weeks! A full Lunar day anyway, landing at dawn and leaving at sunset. This means we need extra supplies for the orbiting cosmonaut as well as those landed with the two on the Moon. And it makes a shirtsleeve cabin and if possible an airlock essential.

They can't be expected to plan on the need to clean moon dust off their suits--but maybe they can, if these grandiose plans are put on hold until after the first LK landings, which will bring the problem to their attention. I suspect some kind of shower with recovery of the water might be in order in the airlock--though I think someone suggested on the Eyes Turned Skyward thread that lunar dust turns to concrete when wetted, so maybe that won't work--but anyway some kind of air blower/vacuum cleaner system where the cleaner has baskets to catch the big grains and one-use filters (a whole lot of them) to catch the fines, with some centrifugal action--Soviet designers could take a tip from the dust filters applied to helicopter turboshaft engine intakes.

Also, the captured dust and fines represent samples of lunar material, albeit contaminated by air (I'm giving up on water for now, though more elaborate moon outposts and bases would probably look into it, concrete or no).

So--given that the N-1 as it stands can already accommodate almost 10 tons of Soyuz-LOK, between 5.5 to 6.5 tons of LK, and enough mass in Block D to brake both into LLO, and then take the LK down, how much mass can a two-part LK comprise. Say we compromise the Crasher-stage concept, use only the limited capacity of the manned mission Block D that was suitable for the 6 ton LK to the extent it allows, and then complete the descent with an American-style lander lower stage full of hypergolic fuel, and ascend in an upgraded version of LK, or maybe something even bigger than Apollo LM Ascent module. So the manned N-1, coming in second, contributes something just the mass of LK, with less propellant but more habitable space--say a tight squeeze for two suited cosmonauts to descend in and escape in case of abort, or if all goes well ascend in, in either of the ascent contingencies using fuel stored on the first, unmanned portion delivered to orbit by an earlier N-1 launch, more or less like in Red Star. That package will involve a smaller Block D that merely places it into Lunar orbit, circling at 70 km above the equator--how much mass then can that Block D deliver, bearing in mind we might be able to lighten its tanks?

It's beyond me right now, tonight--I might get obsessed and work it out sometime this week. But anyway it ought to be at least 16 tons, and probably more. If we have 22 tons of combined lander, formed by plugging the 6 tons the manned ship brings (ascent module, essentially) and we also have an amount of fuel left in the second Block D that brought the manned stack in that I'd have to calculate, but can serve to brake the combined 22 tons some fraction of the speed it would have taken off the smaller LK, presumably we can save propellant relative to an Apollo LM scaled up more than 40 percent and land with a somewhat higher proportion of the 22 tons than the LM achieved of 15. So maybe 10 tons or more? With perhaps 6 of that reserved for the return to orbit, and another part of it landing legs and structure (and engine; at over triple the landing mass, more like quadruple, of LK we'd need a lot of the standard LK engines or a new bigger engine--I vote for six of the proven LK main engines with no alternate backup design; one or two can fail and still work, and taking two of the six back up with the ascent stage won't compromise the mass since LK was designed with two engines anyway) we still have 2-3 tons to play with for use on the Moon--I suggest an inflatable habitat extension/porch with the airlock as a tent-like extension.

This ought to be clearly superior to Apollo LM, and with more Proton launches or a third N-1 the expedition can be shipped yet more equipment and supplies.

I suspect if I work it out exactly, the landed mass on the Moon would exceed 10 tons by a considerable margin, and most of that "extra" relative to pessimistic guess would extend mission time and capability. If the "poky" LK does not have to carry its own fuel because it is supplied as part of the prior unmanned delivery launch, it should match and exceed Apollo LM's delivery capability to orbit, so a lot of moon rocks can come back--again the bottleneck is now the Soyuz-LOK, which presumably has limited downmass margin.

A shirtsleeve environment for Comosnaut had LK NOT
That's clearer to me now. Redesigning it for later missions for a single cosmonaut to enjoy that might be feasible though, if the clutter of equipment could be stowed away (and if the need for some of that in the form of restraints could be eliminated by making the LK more capable of dealing with center of mass variations). I think there is some margin to do this for one cosmonaut within the limits of all-kerlox, single launch missions.

Clearly trying to squeeze in a third cosmonaut for a second landing buddy is not a good idea though. I don't think he'd compromise the Soyuz mass much, but trying to expand LK for a second guy would be very hard and cost too much mass. And if they can't both have a shirtsleeve environment their endurance is limited severely anyway, so having a second guy on hand is not very much added value. Best wait for deluxe class missions based on more capable hydrogen stages and/or multiple N-1 launches then!
 
Obviously, Mueller didn't have a keen sense of where the politics were moving on Capitol Hill...

But you can certainly see where some of the mystique of reusable shuttles was coming from in those days. Perhaps we should blame some of it on Stanley Kubrick.

Blame it on Spiro Agnew !
During the triumph of Apollo 11 came Space Task Group together under leader ship of Vice president Agnew
Spiro Agnew a Spaceflight fanatic push it to limits

He wanted Space Stations, with Shuttle craft, Moon bases and Manned Flight to Mars in 1980s
all this with Infrastructure of Nuclear Orbit Shuttles, Chemical Tugs, Space Shuttle, modular Space stations.
How fare Kubrick's 2001 impinge Spiro Agnew is unknown

it was called The Intergraded Manned Program "IMP"
It was impressive Gigantic program but with price tag of U$500 BILLION (today Dollar)

And all this during Vietnam war and budget cuts imposed by Capitol Hill.
to make matter worst Nixon show no interest "IMP" he had other urged Problems like Vietnam.
While other Study were proposed, like keep Apollo program running or extreme one: NASA stop Manned flight and Johnson and Marschall Center are closed.
to make matter worst the Soviet were unable to Land a cosmonaut on Moon and only launch space station Salut in Low orbit

Apollo died slowly, Vice president Agnew had to resign, NASA Administrator Paine resign, Skylab was Launch, Nixon take little part of IMP: the Space Shuttle and resign...
But new Administrator Fletcher was unexperienced in political matter and his decision to adapt the NASA budget cuts.
and build the Space Shuttle from the cheaply design with inexpensive parts that became the Space Shuttle we had.

After some document Nixon was willing to keep Apollo a life, if Soviets would land on moon at least until shuttle get operational
here we would have 16 additional Apollo mission, ending with Apollo 33 in 1981.

Let see what future bring for ASTO 2.0
 
Post 20, Apollo Misson 8 - 9 - 10

Post 21 Apollo misson 8 - 9 - 10

With the mission of Apollo 7 in October 1968, NASA had one problem less, of a multitude of problems.
The second Saturn V test flight in April ended in near disaster as pogo oscillations hit the first stage and engines on the second and third stage malfunctioned, Von Braun and his team worked overtime to solve the problems, otherwise there would no flight to Moon.
From Grumman came one bad news after another, their dateline of June 1968 for the working LM expired, now they said the first manned test model LM would be ready in February of 1969.
This pushed Apollo 8, the first manned Test of LM to spring 1969.
Also the Johnson Administration had just made cut in NASA Budget and mothballed the Saturn V and Saturn IB production line,
But biggest Problem was the Bad Surprise the Soviet made in September 1968: The first manned fly around the Moon.
The event was labeled by the US media as "Beaten", "Johnson's Sputnik", "Red Moon" and "The September Surprise".

The Popularity of President LBJ was already damaged do to the Vietnam war failing abysmally, especially after the story of the Saturn V production stop and the NASA budget cuts became public.
On November 5, the Democrats got the quittance of there action with Republican Richard Nixon who won the Presidential election with 384 electoral votes.

Back In September Capitol Hill politicians wanted heads to role NASA and at the CIA. Allot of responsible were fired including NASA Administrator Webb!
The new NASA administrator Thomas O. Paine just in office, defended the Apollo program against angry Capitol Hill.

"we're pushing the pedal to metal, we can’t go faster“

240px-NASA-Apollo8-Dec24-Earthrise.jpg

Originally planned as a Low Earth Orbit manned LM test, Apollo 8 got a new target: it would orbit the Moon, something the Soviet not done…yet, seeing the failure of of the Soviet's attempt with their big Luna rocket to orbit around the moon unmanned in October.
But earliest date to launch the Saturn V would be December 1968, for the moment the Saturn V was modified against Pogo Oscillations in Kennedy Space Center.
While the Saturn V was checked through on Launch Pad 39A, came next bad surprise, on November 10, 1968 the Soviets launched another manned Zond flight around the Moon.
Pressure on NASA was high as on 21 December 1968 as Apollo 8 launched to Moon with Frank Borman, James Lovell and William Anders on board.
69 hours 8 minute and 16 seconds after launch, Apollo 8's engine burned, putting the spacecraft in orbit around the Moon.
The crew began it’s Reconnaissance mission of the lunar surface especially the landing sites for the Apollo 11 landing, making 700 photos of Lunar surface and 150 of Earth over Moon.
The crew humorously announced to mission control the 'discovery of' a 'black monolithic structure' in Tycho Crater (a reference to the Stanley Kubrick/Arthur C. Clarke film/novel that had come out earlier in the year).
On 24 December the crew made a live TV broadcast from orbit around the Moon, were they read Genesis from Bible endig with

"and from the crew of Apollo 8, we close with good night, good luck, a Merry Christmas and God bless all of you - all of you on the good Earth“

on 25 December the Apollo 8 crew restarted its engine on the back side of the Moon to return to Earth and landed on 27 December in Pacific.
The triumph of Apollo 8 was what NASA and the USA needed after the disaster of Apollo One and Soviet accomplishment, for the moment the USA was technologically ahead in the Moon race.

242px-Gumdrop_Meets_Spider_-_GPN-2000-001100.jpg

In February of 1969. Grumman delivered LM-3 the first manned Test model which was still far from that what had to land on moon
It was heavy, missing equipment for landing, it's purpose was to show the hardware would work while also testing the new Moon spacesuits in and outside the LM.
On March 3, 1969 Apollo 9 was launched with James McDivitt, David Scott and Russell Schweickart on board.
They successfully tested the LM-3 Spider in Low Earth Orbit and returned to Earth on 13 March.
Meanwhile on March 21 the Soviets launched their next Lunar rocket unmanned but Remote controlled the L3-Complex into Lunar orbit.

140px-Apollo_10_Lunar_Module.jpg

The Next step for NASA was to test flight the LM under real conditions in the orbit around the Moon. While Capitol Hill out cried "Why not Land it ?“.
The reason was simple, it was necessary before LM-5 gonna land on moon and Apollo 10 would carry the last Test model LM-4, which was too heavy and missing equipment for a lunar landing.
26 May the Saturn V blasted off Pad 39B with Eugene Cernam, Thomas Stafford and Legendary John Young.
During flight to moon the crew suffered the malfunction of the "Waste management system“ and had to capture the feces floating in cabin…
On 21 May 1969, the CSM Charlie Brown and LM Snoopy enter Moon orbit.
The Snoopy Test flight almost ended in Disaster, the descent went well until the LM reached 14 km over lunar surface.
As the descent stage is separated, the LM accent stage start to react violently and to rotate, Stafford and Cernam fought hard to stabilize the LM.
The two uttered several expletives until gaining control over Snoopy, close to the moment before the rotation became unrecoverable
after docking with Charlie Brown, they return to Earth and splash down in Pacific on May 26.

The Mission Analysis showed that Stafford and Cernam had accidentally entered duplicated commands into the flight computer, which took the LM out of Abort Mode and disrupted the reaction control system.
The error was in switching the operation checklist, where one important step was missing! Leading to the problems.
Stafford's fast reaction time in shutting down the Flight computer and stabilizing Snoopy by manual control, prevented disaster.
The other problem was the "Waste management system“ malfunction, the system from an engineering standpoint worked satisfactorily, form the crew standpoint it did not work, the waste bag were modified as a result.
NASA downplayed those events, focusing the public on Apollo 11 which would land on Moon, from moment they began assembly of the Saturn V in VAB.

In June as the Saturn V made it's flight readiness test on Launch pad 39A, came next bad surprise from the Soviets,
The first manned Lunar rocket brought the L3-Complex with two cosmonaut in lunar orbit and landed a Unmanned lander on the surface.
The entire world was watching in expectation: "who gonna be the first on Moon, USA or USSR ?“
 
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One correction: Apollo 10's Snoopy was actually LM-4, not LM-3. Looks like just a typo.

Holding off and running the F mission for Apollo 10 is certainly the prudent move. But I do think that if the Soviets are breathing down NASA's neck, there would have been a serious fight to give Apollo 10 LM-5 and attempt the landing in June. As it was, in OTL, there was a scuffle over it.
 
One correction: Apollo 10's Snoopy was actually LM-4, not LM-3. Looks like just a typo.

Holding off and running the F mission for Apollo 10 is certainly the prudent move. But I do think that if the Soviets are breathing down NASA's neck, there would have been a serious fight to give Apollo 10 LM-5 and attempt the landing in June. As it was, in OTL, there was a scuffle over it.

Thank Athelstane, was Typo by my :eek:
yes Apollo 10 mission was necessary to test LM and even that were Problems in succeeding mission
Apollo 11 a missing step on Checklist let to Computer memory overflow from landing Radar data.
Apollo 14 got almost Communication brake down and Abort Mode got activated during landing.
Apollo 15 the LM accent stage back side was damage during lift off from Moon exposing partial the electrical system of LM to space.
7008828495_7b0507f25a.jpg
 
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Thank Athelstane, was Typo by my :eek:
yes Apollo 10 mission was necessary to test LM and even that, were Problems in succeeding mission
Apollo 11 a mission step on Checklist let to Computer memory overflow from landing Radar data.
Apollo 14 got almost Communication brake down and Abort Mode got activated during landing.
Apollo 15 the LM accent stage back side was damage during lift off from Moon exposing partial the electrical system of LM to space.

I'm always reluctant to criticize a timeline simply for not choosing the butterfly I might have chosen, if there's any kind of reasonable case for the author's butterfly - and there is here, certainly. Indeed, those reasons were used to justify the Apollo 10 of our timeline as an F Mission. It's the safer, more prudent option. And NASA did learn a lot from Apollo 10. Armstrong's crew spent many hours debriefing with Stafford's, and profited greatly by it on all accounts. So let me raise four points:

1. What we do know is that even in our timeline, there was a serious and vigorous debate over whether to fly an "F" class mission. Lined up against it were, among others, Mueller and Maynard, and for it were Rose, Huss, and Stafford himself. That debate lasted even into the spring of 1969, beyond the conclusion of Apollo 9. There were good arguments both ways. The arguments for keeping it won out, in the end. And in that context, few of us would second guess that decision. It all worked out.

2. In your timeline, however, the context has changed significantly. Suddenly, the Soviets ARE a threat to beat us to the Moon, which creates a new pressure that did not exist in our timeline - and their launch window in July is before ours. Worse, they've already beat us to cislunar space. It hardly matters in the public, or Congress's, mind that Apollo is a more technically advanced and capable vehicle that has achieved more by this point. What "firsts" NASA has racked up with Gemini and Apollo seem pretty small compared to the Soviet "firsts": First satellite, first man in space, first multi-man crew in space, first probe to the Moon, first woman in space, first spacewalk, first docking, first men around the Moon. Time and again, NASA has been upstaged, despite having blank checks by the world's most powerful economy to build what they needed.

3. And now the Soviets are in serious danger of pulling off what will be the biggest "first" of all: First man on the Moon. What will it matter if Armstrong's crew gets three times as many surface samples, spends three times as long on the surface, puts twice as many men on the surface, brings back eight times as much science, or sends back better and longer live broadcasts if they do it a week after the Soviets get there? And once it's learned that NASA could have attempted a landing a month before, but chose not to do so out of prudence...that is a decision which will be second guessed for eternity, and not just on alt-history forums. It's not entirely fair, but that's human nature, and what the political mood of the time would have been, and nearly was.

4. There's also good precedent for thinking that NASA's calculations could and would have embraced a greater degree of risk in this situation. The entire program was being done on a crunch schedule, a schedule imposed by arbitrary considerations - 1) beating Kennedy's 1970 deadline and 2) beating the Russkies to the Moon. Without them, the program unfolds very differently, and more slowly. Apollo 8 would not have been flown as a "C prime" mission without that; NASA would have just waited until LM-3 was ready, flown Apollo 8 as a D mission, and then Borman's crew would have flown LM-4 as an E or F mission if all went well, and so on, and not on as tight a schedule. Apollo 8 was a gutsy call, one that seems unthinkable to us now, with our greater safety demands. Had it gone bust, the second guessing would have been deafening. But Low persuaded the rest of NASA leadership to do it, mainly because the Dec. 31 1969 deadline would have been very tough to make without it.

That being the case...

While I think a good argument can be made either way, my sense is that in these circumstances, the decision would have been to skip an F class mission and make an attempt with Apollo 10 to make the first landing, using LM-5, the Lunar Module built by Grumman for the first landing, during the first available launch window in which LM-5 would have been ready. LM-5 was basically ready for flight in June, and even with all the good will and effort in the world it does not seem likely that it could have been ready for the May launch window. The June launch window was June 17-24. Here, Mueller and Maynard wins the argument with Rose and Stafford by conceding more decision points and stricter requirements during powered descent for attempting the landing, and Stafford given more discretion. If an abort gets called, NASA still gets (barring some unforeseen disaster) a successful F class mission out of it, and gets to try again in August with LM-6.

Failing that, I will say this: the LEAST we can say is that there would have been an even more intense, even ferocious debate, within NASA over trying a landing with LM-5 in June using Stafford's crew, once the Soviets stage their successful cislunar mission. I think that has to be accounted for. The F class mission proponents might still win, but they'd have a fight on their hands.
 
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your right, Athelstane

There were huge discussion in NASA to Land with Apollo 10
but in end Safety standards won the discussion, LM-4 was to heavy to land and missing equipment requires by Safety standards.

LM-5 match the Safety standards for save Landing.
but it past it's acceptance test at Grumman factory in Long island only on January 1969
Then follow a journey to Kennedy Space center were it underwent assembly several test then integration on Saturn V (SA-506)
in mean time Apollo 9 and 10 made LM Test flight those experience went direct to Armstrong Crew
in May the LM-5 was installed on Saturn V SA-506.
They are ready to launch after June 26 Countdown Demonstration Test on SA-506.

now most literature claim that July 16 launch date was because of Astronomical reason, that Moon has to be in right position
and that is partial true, it's because right illumination on Moon surface !
the launch was made after New Moon during Waxing crescent so if CSM/LM arrive at the Moon it got in First quarter.
This helps the LM pilots to see better the Shadows of Crater and bolder on Lunar surface and it help them allot !

So, who you turn it
NASA was only able to land soonest on the moon on July 20, 1969 and culprit was Lunar Module !
 
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Hello Michel,

NASA was only able to land soonest on the moon on July 24, 1969 and culprit was Lunar Module !

Well, that was the soonest Apollo 11 could fly with it, certainly, given tempo set up on the existing mission schedule.

But here, the question is when could Apollo 10 have flown with LM-5?

We're all agreed: LM-5 was the Lunar Module intended for the first landing. All the documentation supports that. If Apollo 10 is going to attempt a landing, it cannot do it with LM-4, at least not before considerably modifications (that would have taken most of the year) by Grumman.

LM-5 was delivered on Jan. 8 (Ascent Stage) and Jan. 12 (Descent Stage) to the Cape. On May 20, 1969, it was rolled out to Launch Pad 39A. On June 1, it had final flight readiness test. (On June 26, there was a countdown readiness test, but there was no rush on it.) All that is with the assumption that it's intended for Apollo 11 for a July launch window.

But if the decision has been made earlier in '69 to try Apollo 10 as a G class mission, LM-5 would have been ready for that June launch window. I have read, in fact, that George Low formally proposed it, and pushed the plan with Mueller's backing. Alas, I don't have the documentation on that with me right now, or a serviceable link.

In the end, Low, Mueller and Maynard lost the argument, which didn't really get resolved for good until after Apollo 9, because the urgency was not enough to overcome Rose's argument that "we need to mature the system." Rose was particularly concerned about lunar mascons, and how they would affect the mission profile (a valid concern, in my view).

But in this scenario, they know that the Soviets are in position to attempt a landing this summer. Do they play it safe and wait until Apollo 11 no earlier than late July, and hope the Soviets don't try a launch on their June or July launch windows? Or do they gamble again (like they did with Apollo 8) by trying with Apollo 10 using LM-5 as soon as they can?

I think the pressure would have been too much to overcome. Apollo 8 was driven by similar pressure - not just to keep the timeline for beating Kennedy's deadline on schedule, but because (though the documentation on scantier) there was real evidence that the Soviets might attempt a Zond lunar flyby within the next few months - which, in fact, it turns out they were attempting, right up to the last minute before Apollo 8. Apollo 8 was staged as a riskier mission because of an arbitrary deadline. It was a calculated risk, a reasonable, risk, but a risk taken just the same because of the need to beat a political deadline.

I don't say your position is wrong, because there were good reasons to play it safe, and we really can't know for certain. But I do think there would have been a ferocious debate about it within NASA, and that the odds probably favor gambling with Apollo 10 - probably with precautions. If the Soviets beat the U.S. to the Moon, even by just a week or so, there will be heads on a platter among NASA's leadership. Even if Nixon weren't that vindictive, plenty of people on Capitol Hill will be.

P.S. LM milestone dates for LM-5 are here: https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/apollo/missions/apollo11.html
 
now i get it, Athelstane

sadly again timing strikes again this time the Apollo 10 countdown
some were in April the LM-5 was altitude testing and rolle out to VAB
Then begin may the LM-5 was installed in SA-506 before CSM was install on top of it.
in same time Apollo 10 SA-505 was rollout to launch pad 39B, and integrated into launch pad infrastructure.
follow of Countdown Demonstration Test, i think it was around 20 days prior to launch.

If Low and Muller had convince Administrator Paine, to drop the important final Test Flight of LM
the Launch of Apollo 10 had to delayed until LM-5 would be ready to installed on SA-505.
that begin May with rollout and final Countdown Demonstration Test that would be begin June
with launch window at 17 June, landing around 21 June
but Stafford and Cernam would fly untested LM with faulty Checklists and some computer errors.

After Stafford and Cernam interpret the Computer Memory overflow wrong (Apollo 11 do missing point on Checklist)
combine with there original missing sequence switching on the operation checklist.
it very likely that Apollo 10 end im abort with much luck the two manage alive back to CSM.

in end USA got a failed Mission, NASA is trouble and politicians demand for Paine's Head
while Apollo 11 now scheduled for August / September 1969.
 
Hi Michel,

Oh, it would have been risky, no question. The sequence switching is a valid concern. Perhaps it would have been caught in time, but perhaps not. I'd estimate the odds of an abort during powered descent at....geez, I don't know...40-50%?* They learned a lot of things on Apollo 10 in our timeline.

I *do* think that, at the least, there would be a very vigorous debate to trying a June landing with Apollo 10. I mean, there was a good debate about doing it in *our* timeline - and the Soviets had been knocked out of the race by that point, at least as far as a landing was concerned. Cernan says in his biography that they were still arguing about it into March, for example. I'd include at least mention of that debate if I were you...but that's just me.

As I say, however: If the Soviets make a landing in their early July launch window, and just barely beat Neil and Buzz by several days, and it becomes known that NASA had a viable option for an Apollo 10 landing and refused to take it, I think Paine loses his job, and and he probably won't be alone. The delays posed by the Apollo 1 fire will get dredged up again, too.

All that money spent, all that effort, and the U.S. lost the most important race of all - and they had a chance to win it. Not even a permanent lunar base will efface the defeat. Not really fair, but politics are rarely about fairness.

___

* Of course, this raises what the odds of an abort or worse failure on the first attempted Soviet landing would be, since they wouldn't even have had the kind of experience and practice that NASA had with its hardware (and let us not even speak about Soviet quality control issues)...I'll wager it would have to be around that range, too...
 
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I *do* think that, at the least, there would be a very vigorous debate to trying a June landing with Apollo 10. ...I'd include at least mention of that debate if I were you...but that's just me.
I agree with you that the pressure and agonizing would be there.

Given the points of failure debugged OTL, I rather hope the advocates of the methodical, careful course prevail--only in hindsight would that appear to be necessary though, and then only to the judicious, detail-focused scholar; in wide focus, the cries that Apollo 10 should have made the landing in hindsight will tend to drown out careful, critical analysis.
As I say, however: If the Soviets make a landing in their early July launch window, and just barely beat Neil and Buzz by several days, and it becomes known that NASA had a viable option for an Apollo 10 landing and refused to take it, I think Paine loses his job, and and he probably won't be alone. The delays posed by the Apollo 1 fire will get dredged up again, too.

All that money spent, all that effort, and the U.S. lost the most important race of all - and they had a chance to win it. Not even a permanent lunar base will efface the defeat. Not really fair, but politics are rarely about fairness.
These recriminations will certainly prevail in the short run. As people calm down though I daresay that a rising number of thoughtful commentators, both government and public, will observe that JFK never vowed we should beat anyone else to the Moon, only that we Americans do it "before the decade is out." That is sort of disingenuous since absolutely everyone understood the Moon landing proposal as an attempt to show up the Russians and thus a challenge to them, but it would be possible and not unreasonable to try to spin the American program as the methodical progress toward a self-chosen goal that had nothing to do with playing catch-up with others. And to be sure, Eisenhower had his own approved space program, and conceivably if the Soviet space challenge did not exist at all the US government might have funded, in some form, at some pace, the slow, systematic development of satellite launches, space probes, and eventually human missions to orbit and beyond.

Conceivably--even Ike's tortoise-like plodding was very much driven by competitive concerns about the Soviets--not so much worrying how it might look if the Russians got all the firsts of space flight since I guess most Americans were complacent that if we weren't ready, Ivan certainly could not be, but of course worrying about Soviet military capabilities, and the desire to spy on their heartland directly and at will, which only satellites could gratify. Take away the infrastructure of missile development and the motive to spy on a powerful and effectively sealed-off rival power and one can only hope there would be some budget for rocketry and development of orbital technology just for the hell of it, or anyway for civil uses such as com sats or weather satellites.

So it is somewhat mendacious for the Americans to fall back on a testy, "we don't rush, we do it right;" the whole Apollo program presents some evidence to the contrary as do specific incidents and episodes, such as Apollo 8 for instance. But it's the sort of lie that it is now in the general American interest to believe, and may lay foundations for a sustained, institutionalized methodical expansion into space.

The TL has thus far been a Soviet-wank and West-screw in general, but I suspect it will find a balance pretty soon, because the implication of the TL title is to get a general situation reminiscent of the Clarke-Kubrick movie by the time the calendar reaches the year 2000. And in that movie, as well as Clarke's parallel book, there clearly has not been a WWIII, nor has the Soviet Union collapsed, nor is the USA a psychotic paranoid hermit state; clearly the Cold War has not spun out of balance. The scene of Heywood Floyd meeting the group of Soviets on Space Station V implies that, if perhaps there have been more periods of high tension comparable to say the Cuban Missile Crisis in the interim decades, there have also been years of detente in which Floyd could meet and spend time with Soviet scientists, and his own political career in the US is not derailed by these associations.

I know there are some people who think the canon versions of 2001 (text and cinematic) suggest a massive militarization of space, but there isn't any evidence of that I can glean from either source--to be fair it has been a long time since I last read the book and I suppose there is some casual mention of space-based weapons there. But even if these exist the impression one gets is a period of detente and they seem to exist in the book mainly as (futile) threats to the StarChild--in other words, fired only in a (misguided) defense of humanity as a whole, not in fratricidal Armageddon.

I certainly don't expect the TL to wind up being a setting for the aliens of the stories. For one thing, then the mods would have to move it to ASB:eek:--on two grounds, one for employing fictional characters from published works, another for including aliens. But the spirit implied by the title choice is that space technology, and the entities employing it, should parallel the capabilities of the fictional world by the titular date.

So I don't think the Americans are going to keep losing. For us to have systematically developed not one but five space stations by that date, and the latest one to be the huge spinning wheel of Space Station V, we have to get invested in seriously sustained and systematic efforts that don't fluctuate with political breezes. The movie and book imply that the Western joint effort of a Moon Base at Clavius is large, multinational (inclusive of Europeans anyway, and possibly other Western allies) and bigger and better than the Soviet base at an undisclosed location.

The later pair of book and movie, 2010, are more divided; sticking with the books, Soviet-American relations are not much different than in 2001 but the Chinese have at some point (very possibly before, even long before) 2001 jumped ship from the Soviet bloc again. Or if one goes with the movie, then US/Soviet relations are in severe crisis, as bad as the Cuban Missile Crisis or worse. I hated that when I went to see the movie when it was first released in the mid-80s; it was too much something "ripped from yesterday's headlines." I have come to appreciate the movie more since then but I still don't think a TL that sets the stage for 2001 level tech in 2001 should also be one that makes the Cold War on the balance much worse. (The book and movie can be ATLs of each other, in one the balance of terror happens to be in a teetering phase as it would be from time to time, in the other it happens not to be).

So if a Soviet first landing does occur as yet another gut punch to US pride, it seems that the Americans will recover in the longer run without going completely nuts.

___

* Of course, this raises what the odds of an abort or worse failure on the first attempted Soviet landing would be, since they wouldn't even have had the kind of experience and practice that NASA had with its hardware (and let us not even speak about Soviet quality control issues)...I'll wager it would have to be around that range, too...

Bear in mind, the Soviet program as described here (and to a great extent, as Mishin did sketch out the plan OTL, albeit later) has some rather costly safety features. For instance, the Zond-11 mission, a manned circumlunar flight, included an operational LK that was landed, unmanned, on the Moon. It was guided down by a pre-positioned Lunokhod that had previously scouted its zone and located the optimal landing site within it.

Thus the likelihood of Soviet failure is somewhat reduced; a lifeboat alternate LK is already in place, which covers many contingencies, as well as having been an opportunity to test the method out as well as as Apollo 10 does for the Americans, and demonstrate the functionality of the machinery pretty conclusively.

So when you give the Russians and Americans the same odds, what you are saying is, the Russians, having already done their Apollo 10 equivalent mission and relying on an automated descent profile that has already been proven to lead to a safe landing once, are taking the same chances as Yankees who skip their scheduled final test mission and take a partially tested LM that absolutely requires two human pilots to land safely and has no robot scout previously on site to verify the suitability of the zone and pick out the best point to land on.

It's only a fair comparison if one assumes Soviet engineering is inherently less reliable than American, which certainly is an opinion that has a lot of evidence to back it up--OTL. Whether it is as fair in this TL is open to question though, and anyway if one has less confidence in a piece of Russian machinery than American, the L3 system seems to have more systematic redundancy built into it--at cost to mission capability to be sure.

In the future, once the race to first boot on the Moon is settled, the Soviets might want to consider if there are alternative ways of providing a lifeline for their cosmonauts without staging an entire N-1 launch and mission to Lunar orbit merely to deliver a backup LK to the surface in the hope it will never be used. That second launch, as I've suggested before, can instead be used to provide for a lander with vastly improved capabilities, one that can surpass the Apollo LM in fact. This is before any prospective upgrades of the N-1 to include hydrogen-burning upper stages. OTL it would be a long time after 1969 before the Soviets attempted this but here I think they'd have to have it penciled in for the 1970s. It would probably be fair to have the earliest Soviet hydrogen rockets somewhat inferior to the early RL-10 in ISP, unless they simply reverse-engineer the latest version of that American rocket of course!:p

But what I mean to indicate here is that long before they can reasonably start relying on such improved rockets, the N-1 as it stands is capable of enabling missions quite competitive with American best practice--at least when using two launches, which is already standard Soviet practice for lunar missions.

As a space station launcher, the N-1 still falls short of Saturn V, but relatively less so, because the unfavorable comparison of American use of hydrogen versus Soviet reliance on ker-lox even for TLI does not come into it, so the difference is relatively smaller. The Soviets can therefore launch space station modules quite comparable to those Americans can launch. OTL Skylab was an impressive achievement despite its mishap during launch, but the Soviets were more persistent with their relatively diminutive Salyuts. What if here the Space Race in its ongoing laps leads to modular stations--with the units not being the 20 or so tonne modules a Proton or Space Shuttle could lift to orbit, but the 100 ton blocks either nation's heaviest lifter can raise?:cool:

Now I noticed that in the latest post, LBJ mothballed the Saturn production lines--right on OTL schedule. That, more than the failure to accelerate Apollo by making 10 a landing mission, strikes me as an odd railroading of American reactions to OTL instead of the situation they face.

I would think that in the situation the Americans are in now, not only would they get panicky about speeding up the pace of Apollo (only to be assured by NASA management that it can't go faster without unacceptable safety compromises) but consensus would widen and deepen (in elite circles anyway, and probably with broad popular support) to double down on space program funding. Not literally double of course! But throwing more, not less, money at NASA would tend to be the trend of the later Sixties--the budget might still come down from the peak, but not as much.

I'd argue that if there is a stop in production of current-design Saturn rockets, it would only be to take a moment to introduce improvements in them. The Saturn 1B was of course a kludge of a kludge, thrown together rather hastily, and could benefit from quite a lot of redesign. Perhaps the brilliance of what E of Pi and Workable Goblin came up with with their Saturn 1C blinds me to what engineers and managers of the late 60s would actually have done to make a more efficient vehicle that can match or moderately exceed the 1B--but the path seems so clear once it is shown I'd need someone to explain to me in small words just why the notion of making an integral instead of clustered tank, replacing 8 H-1 engines with a single F-1A, and only subtly tinkering with the upper stage mainly by swapping a J-2S in place of its J-2 would not be the obvious thing to do? Meanwhile, with absolutely no changes to its tankage, simply swapping in the upgraded engines into the Saturn V design should result in significant performance upgrades for nearly free. These changes would give moderate improvements but are quite low-cost and in the case of Saturn V, mean very little modification of the production lines. What changes occur there, rather than at the engine manufacturing contractor site, would best be focused on making the same article to the same specs but with reduction in part count, labor cost, or other such incremental efficiencies.

Perhaps ITTL, this was Johnson's intent-and perhaps it was not, but anyway he is out after January 1969. And I suspect that Nixon has no intention of seeing Saturn scrapped, although he may well insist on some combination of performance upgrades and cost reductions--this might result in playing political chicken with the contractors, to scare them into compliance.
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Meanwhile though back in summer of 1969, it looks to me like the Soviets are in a sweet position. I believe they are aiming to beat the first Apollo landing, and that they will succeed in doing so--but even if they cannot do this and only land second, they would not be in the bad position the Americans would coming in second; everyone knows the Americans are richer and more powerful, and the Kremlin never made Kennedy's promise to do it before the decade is out.

If they come in second and then all they can do after that is send more small, brief LK missions, they will look more and more backward and the Americans will gain in prestige. If they come in first but then all they can do is the LK, with no encore act--the Americans will start to recover. They have to follow up with more than LK, no matter what, unless the Americans just give up--which they didn't do OTL until quite a few years after '69. But they can do better than LK given a little time, and OTL they planned on it.
 
Hello Shevek,

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

Given the points of failure debugged OTL, I rather hope the advocates of the methodical, careful course prevail--only in hindsight would that appear to be necessary though, and then only to the judicious, detail-focused scholar; in wide focus, the cries that Apollo 10 should have made the landing in hindsight will tend to drown out careful, critical analysis.

It's the safer bet.

Then again, NASA didn't take the safer bet with Apollo 8, when they were facing a deadline. Without it, Borman's crew simply waits their turn after McDivitt's does theirs in March. That's the precedent for taking the leap.

That said - The G Mission was inherently more risky, with more moving parts, than a lunar orbit flight...

These recriminations will certainly prevail in the short run. As people calm down though I daresay that a rising number of thoughtful commentators, both government and public, will observe that JFK never vowed we should beat anyone else to the Moon, only that we Americans do it "before the decade is out." That is sort of disingenuous since absolutely everyone understood the Moon landing proposal as an attempt to show up the Russians and thus a challenge to them, but it would be possible and not unreasonable to try to spin the American program as the methodical progress toward a self-chosen goal that had nothing to do with playing catch-up with others.

That's all NASA would have left, really. You are right, however, to note that whatever Kennedy promised, the understanding was always that it was about beating the Russians. The political blowback will not be pretty. There is no getting around that.

Of course, Michel wants to really jumpstart space exploration in general and lunar exploration in particular, and I do get that for that to happen, NASA needs more Soviet successes to keep its manned program juiced, to keep the race going. For that to happen, though - and this is an aside to Michel - I think that has a better chance of happening with Humphrey winning in '68 than Nixon. Which is a very plausible outcome, given how close the election was. Humphrey felt more investment in Apollo, without all the anti-Kennedy baggage that Nixon carried around. Conversely, detente would have been more difficult for Humphrey to pull off than for Nixon.

I know there are some people who think the canon versions of 2001 (text and cinematic) suggest a massive militarization of space, but there isn't any evidence of that I can glean from either source--to be fair it has been a long time since I last read the book and I suppose there is some casual mention of space-based weapons there.

In 2010 (book, at least), there's mention of Bowman's new energy form detonating an orbiting nuclear warhead when he returns to Earth, I believe. And the movie really boosts the Cold War angle, so it's hard to believe there's not some space militarization there. Likewise, there's no reason to think this sort of thing is confined to orbiting weapons systems - if both the US and USSR have independent extensive lunar bases with large staffs, there's some probability that they have some kind of defensive capabilities...though the fact that both are using Space Station V as a way station for at least some of their lunar transport needs suggests that there's also some cooperation, too.

In the end, Clarke doesn't really go into all that, so we really don't know. It's possible to believe there's considerable militarization, including strategic weapons systems, all over the place, though my sense is that Clarke's political leanings and enthusiasm for international cooperation in space exploration probably means it's relatively modest.

So if a Soviet first landing does occur as yet another gut punch to US pride, it seems that the Americans will recover in the longer run without going completely nuts.

Undoubtedly. But in the immediate blowback, it will cost Paine his job (just as well, he was a poor pick for administrator). Low and Mueller would probably survive since they had both been pushing for Apollo 10 to make the landing.

Bear in mind, the Soviet program as described here (and to a great extent, as Mishin did sketch out the plan OTL, albeit later) has some rather costly safety features. For instance, the Zond-11 mission, a manned circumlunar flight, included an operational LK that was landed, unmanned, on the Moon. It was guided down by a pre-positioned Lunokhod that had previously scouted its zone and located the optimal landing site within it.

True, but all of that doesn't make the powered descent any less risky, and the LK lander was not a very robust system. There are so many things that can go wrong... It was tricky enough for the Apollo LM. A last minute abort for either lander in the final approach would have been especially dangerous, and then there's the question of rendezvous, something the Soviets struggled with more.

And in this timeline, the Soviets have not tested their lander in lunar orbit. I don't know what the risk percentages really are, but I have to think there would have been a very significant failure risk.
 
...
Of course, Michel wants to really jumpstart space exploration in general and lunar exploration in particular, and I do get that for that to happen, NASA needs more Soviet successes to keep its manned program juiced, to keep the race going. For that to happen, though - and this is an aside to Michel - I think that has a better chance of happening with Humphrey winning in '68 than Nixon. Which is a very plausible outcome, given how close the election was. Humphrey felt more investment in Apollo, without all the anti-Kennedy baggage that Nixon carried around. Conversely, detente would have been more difficult for Humphrey to pull off than for Nixon.
As a partisan, I'd sure rather see Humphrey win!:p That might be short-sighted, as unintended consequences of his election might lead to an even worse TL than OTL I suppose. My gut feeling though, watching a re-run of Star Trek's "Mirror, Mirror" episode in the later 1980s, was that Nixon's election OTL was the POD that put OTL on track for the Mirror 'verse Empire.

He didn't win a solid majority of the popular vote OTL, though clearly a larger portion than Humphrey--George Wallace split the vote with a fairly strong third candidacy.

ITTL though I'd say LBJ is clearly in a worse position so his anointed successor is clearly more clouded yet. In addition to the conflict in SE Asia being tougher, behind that is the Sino-Soviet realignment which doesn't make him look good either.

I've questioned why the tougher situation doesn't result in higher taxes being passed with consensus from the anointed chattering classes, still more weapons programs and more grandiose schemes in Vietnam--and conceivably the anti-war movement and whole hippie/New Left movement is somewhat weaker and more sharply criticized than OTL. That might sound like lining up behind LBJ's leadership--and if he misread the situation it would be him running for reelection rather than Humphrey. But I think he didn't misread--he knew that backing him while he still holds office is one thing but the same hardliners who stand behind him before November '68 will weasel out and back Nixon (or any other Republican) come that election. So as OTL he dropped out, which he hardly would have done if he judged he could win. Trying to shake off his personal jinx with his VP was worth trying I suppose though even in OTL it seems clear the Democrats would have done better to nominate someone less associated with his administration. But that has its own stench about it; I can't think of an instance where a party ditches its incumbent in office and then wins with an alternate; the maneuver looks like an admission of culpable failure to the electorate. And who would be the better prospect than the incumbent himself?

I forget if we've been told RFK is dead by November or not, and if he lives, perhaps he judged the water was too hot for any Democrat in '68 and stayed out of the race (which would certainly raise his chances of living to see the new year).

For that matter, is Reverend King also dead as per OTL? We might hope not, though with Nixon in office and J. Edgar Hoover still running the FBI, his chances of survival much past his OTL assassination don't look too bright either. I am not suggesting the government had him killed OTL, but I am suggesting that Hoover's FBI had limited enthusiasm for guarding his life. And he knew he was in danger OTL.

There's a lot we don't know about '68 ATL, but it doesn't look like a good environment for Johnson or any other Democrat to tough it out and win in November. Unfortunately IMHO, but there it is.

I don't read Nixon as being hostile to the space program by inclination, though certainly he would have some rancor toward glorifying the Kennedy legacy. I think his chumminess with the industrial side of the Military/Industrial Complex Eisenhower pronounced against like a hypocritical Cassandra would more than counterbalance any political disdain for Apollo as Kennedy's baby; what he'd want to do given his druthers is put his own stamp on it, which would gratify the contractors too. OTL he was just riding the general political tide and if the authors think they've turned it here he will probably be happy enough with seeing a new generation of spacecraft, or anyway something so modified with enough of a newly redirected set of missions he can claim it for his own new model, his Pepsi against the Democratic Coca-Cola.

Aside from mere moods though I believe he will inevitably be facing an economic downturn, and in a strange and baffling form too.
In 2010 (book, at least), there's mention of Bowman's new energy form detonating an orbiting nuclear warhead when he returns to Earth, I believe.
I think that's the end of 2001 actually, and at least some of the weapons are also launched from Earth. One in orbit is enough to break sharply with OTL though, and in an unfortunate direction.
And the movie really boosts the Cold War angle, so it's hard to believe there's not some space militarization there.
But the book and movie are very far apart in the case of 2010; I prefer Clarke's own canon--though it does foreshadow a renewed Sino-Soviet split. Americans and Russians cooperate pretty smoothly in Clarke's book, and even the Chinese are not so much aggressive as secretive.
Likewise, there's no reason to think this sort of thing is confined to orbiting weapons systems - if both the US and USSR have independent extensive lunar bases with large staffs, there's some probability that they have some kind of defensive capabilities...though the fact that both are using Space Station V as a way station for at least some of their lunar transport needs suggests that there's also some cooperation, too.
It really looks like quite a lot of trust and cooperation there. To be sure--given the back story Sislov (IIRC) gives, about the allegedly malfunctioning Soviet surface transport being refused permission to call on Clavius base, maybe what is going there is a bit of diplomatic tit-for-tat--the Soviets normally do go up and down via their own orbital station (which may or may not be in the station numbering sequence) but citing some absurd reason claimed a necessity for Sislov's party, carefully chosen to include a closer friend of Floyd's than Sislov himself (and all women except their boss, for more manipulative posturing) with the intention of intercepting Floyd. It also puts the American commitment to open sharing of facilities in an alleged emergency to the test; are the Americans going cold and dark on them across the board, or is something peculiar up at Clavius? (I personally think in the story that the Soviets aren't fooled by the plague cover story, in part because they have human assets planted at Clavius who can confirm that that "rumor" is disinformation--but American security suspects them enough to keep them out of the loop on the true situation. Perhaps one of them, maybe one the CIA missed or one it would reveal too much to keep out, is at the conference Floyd holds there though. I would also think they've got some telemetry from the satellite that finds TMA-1 in the first place.)

And disclaimer--none of these characters or events will show up in the TL lest it get whisked off to another forum. But the atmosphere as of the year 2001 is thus one more reminiscent of OTL early 1970s than mid-60s or early 80s; flashpoints still exist, and perhaps much of the civility between Floyd and the Soviet delegation is a matter of their being collegial scientists, with some pretense of being above the political fray--as well as some serious kabuki theatre going on of course.

If we suppose for the moment that American politics parallels OTL as close as it has thus far, then I guess Floyd answers to Bill Clinton. Obviously US/Soviet relations have to be different than OTL 1990s relations between the US and Russia, but I would expect part of the Clinton mandate of '92 was to defrost relations with the Soviets and try for a sustainable detente again after the mostly-frosty Reagan and Bush years--here I suppose there was some contact and relaxation in the later Reagan years, either with not-Gorbachev or an ATL Gorby who hits on a different sort of peristroika that doesn't lead to the chain-reaction unravelling of the Soviet system. Then Bush succeeds Reagan and perhaps without intending to the tension tightens up again; then a Clinton presidency that perhaps was less severely challenged by insurgent Republicans, maybe not losing control of Congress until '96 and getting back the Senate in '98 for a briefer, less extreme Republican dominated middle administration. Probably the culture wars are less off the hook due to the Cold War tension still serving its stabilizing function in US politics; not all Americans think the USSR is the "Evil Empire" exactly but it is still the rival to watch and worry about, and its sins are ready on everyone's tongue and thoughts.

No Gulf War 1 as we knew it OTL I bet; in the context of an ongoing Soviet bloc still in place I believe Hussein might have been more Soviet-aligned, and thus restrained by the Kremlin from doing something like invading Kuwait. There are other ways to play this that might be more plausible but also perhaps more likely to generate political controversy among ourselves, so I offer that. (In the 1970s and '80s I certainly had the impression Iraq was a peripheral Soviet client, not in the inner circle to be sure but vaguely "socialist" and a recipient of Soviet aid like say Egypt had been earlier).

Perhaps then Bush gets reelected in '92, or more likely this whole analog-to-OTL correspondence to US Presidents is off the rails by 1977 anyway or even earlier.

Certainly by conventional butterfly theory it ought to be; if we are going to have regular shuttle flights to a huge spinning space stations and ships with high-ISP presumably nuclear engines of some kind enabling quick (single day?) transit from LEO to the Moon, and a big manned interplanetary ship that can reach Jupiter or even Saturn, the world and national economies ought to be very different, leading to different political line-ups. I personally think it is legitimate to maintain parallelism in chosen aspects.

So I was having fun with imagining exact parallels to OTL up to 2001, but then that game stops being fun for me, so I ought to be in the "butterflied" camp here.

Hey, maybe we are being set up for the TL of the Harlan Ellison story:

A Boy and His Dog said:
"...Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Kennedy, Kennedy, Kennedy, Kennedy...
:eek:
..all of that doesn't make the powered descent any less risky, and the LK lander was not a very robust system. There are so many things that can go wrong... It was tricky enough for the Apollo LM. A last minute abort for either lander in the final approach would have been especially dangerous, and then there's the question of rendezvous, something the Soviets struggled with more.

And in this timeline, the Soviets have not tested their lander in lunar orbit. I don't know what the risk percentages really are, but I have to think there would have been a very significant failure risk.

There was an old man in a boat
Who asked, "How do you know it will float?"
Whereupon he said "Boo!"
To the terrified crew
And retired to the cabin to gloat.
:D

The link you give surprised me. I'd heard there was a window of danger in the LM's final descent and in fact it had been represented elsewhere as "no go" for recovery, period. Which led me to think it had something to do with the dynamics of the trajectory, and that the AM's engine just wouldn't be able to pull them up fast enough. That seemed odd and fishy to me. But now that I see the nature of the hazard, namely the not-quite-dry DM crashing down and possibly blowing up due to the hypergolic fuels splashing together, I have to point out to you that is one danger the LK categorically avoids!

I've considered the crasher stage strategy to be rather sloppy and unfortunate, but one virtue it has is that the crasher stage (here, a ker-lox D Blok) is drained dry of all its fuel and cruises off under inertia to smash down many miles away from the landing zone. (Aside from the matter of littering the Lunar surface, which after all is how NASA chose to dispose of many of the Saturn third stages rather than allow them to become drifting space junk, I have to wonder if there isn't some chance of a bit of shrapnel from the D Blok's debris hitting the LK like a bullet, if not during landing approach than shortly after it settles down).

This also means that separation from the D-Blok is scheduled for when the combined craft is a considerable distance up. I'm not sure what the thrust schedule is, but I believe it was going to be that the crasher stage mostly thrusts straight ahead to brake off orbital speed, but tilts up toward the end to null out descent speed picked up during the braking, so that the combined craft is nearly at a standstill vertically but sliding downrange horizontally at about 100 m/sec, so it is at the top of a parabolic arc to the surface. Presumably if the craft tilts up to say 45 or 30 degrees from vertical, the LK is positioned to null the last of its horizontal velocity while also hovering against Lunar gravity downward. Perhaps a more appropriate angle is 60 from vertical since losing the last bit of downrange speed is the priority at that point while sinking down to the Moon is desirable.

How likely is it that the D-blok will have trouble separating from the LK? I'm thinking if the arrangement is like the Apollo LM's ascent stage separation, it can be held to the D-Blok with a minimal number of explosive bolts, say three, each of which have three detonators. The main detonator would be triggered by severing the ribbon of control wires with a guillotine as described for the LM ascent stage sequence; when some wires in that go dead the detonator on the LK side is triggered, shattering the bolts. If one or more of these detonators fail, or if the guillotine mechanism fails to cut the wires cleanly, the wire has a bit of slack and then the LK engine thrust would pull it taut; at this point it should come out if we've sensibly designed the ribbon to have a plug that goes into a socket on the LK from which a fair sized tug will pull it. Meanwhile there is another ribbon on the opposite side of the engine thrust axis held to the LK by a clamp that will be engaged by tension on the wire socket by means of a simple switch; once the wire breaks or the socket pulls out the circuit is broken and the clamp, engaged by a solenoid now with an open circuit, releases. The purpose of this ribbon would be to balance the restraining tension on the LK so it does not get pitched over you see. If meanwhile one or more bolts remain unexploded, they each have two more detonators activated by tension on the bolt; the one on the LK side is set for a lower tension and should engage first, blowing the bolt, if not the other one on the D-Blok should blow. If all three detonators fail, the bolt should be designed so it is screwed into a relatively soft and easily torn material on the LK side, so it simply rips loose under the stress.

I don't see why a similar arrangement on the LM wouldn't guarantee separation of the AM from the DM within a lot less than two seconds while still being reasonably foolproof about avoiding undesired separation. But anyway, when an astronaut orders a last minute abort on the LM, the craft is close to the Moon's surface and going downward fast; seconds are crucial. Separation of LK from the D-Blok is routine and happens at higher altitude with less downward velocity; there is much more time to achieve separation. Then, unless the nominal orientation of the craft is vertical thrust axis at separation, unfortunately immediate application of the LK thrust would not fully lift the craft up while it would start to cancel residual orbital velocity the cosmonaut pilot suddenly wants to keep--it might therefore be best to separate routinely in a vertical attitude, even though that means a bit of a delay while it tips over to complete braking off the residual orbital speed.

Well, what if the LK engine fails? It has a backup engine with two chambers and nozzles that don't throttle, so I suppose that if it has to be engaged during descent, that's an immediate abort to orbit. The other contingency it would be used in is if the main engine fails during ascent. One can afford the sloppier control that having no throttle implies ascending back to orbit, not so much during landing.

That spare engine represents an inefficient use of mass to me; like the entire spare LK it is a mass shifted all the way to the Lunar surface that one prays never to use. And it masses quite as much as the main engine too. I personally think it would be cool and smart to design landers with six identical engines, sized so four suffice for a nominal landing; that way if one shuts down one shuts down the opposite one on the hexagon and relies on the other four. While when all are functional one has four levels of thrust symmetrical about the axis available--two jet, three jet, four, or all six--1/2, 3/4, 1, 3/2 the nominal 4 jet thrust. Switching between these arrays might give adequate thrust "throttling" and switching off one, two, or three on one side adequate control of roll about the two axes perpendicular to the vertical thrust line--spinning it around that axis is either a job for auxiliary thrusters or suitable gimbaling of the mains.

But no one has ever hired me as a spacecraft engineer for some reason or other. :p Smart or dumb, the LK has the second engine. Unlike the Apollo descent and ascent main engines, which sacrificed some efficiency to achieve a very simple and robust pressure-fed hypergol design, both were pumped hypergolics, so either might well fail for reasons irrelevant to the Apollo engines. And I suppose it would be possible for a pump in the main engine of the LK to fail by seizing up and being catapulted through either the crew compartment, ripping through the cosmonaut section and thus the cosmonaut, or more likely, shredding the alternate engine too so it crashes and burns for sure. A sudden internal failure of that kind can't happen to the LM engines I guess, but still they can hardly be utterly infallible; their lines or chambers might have weak spots where they are being gradually worn to suddenly flare out. Or the pressurization system (compressed helium I believe) could burst, in the tanks or feed lines. If anything like that happens to a descending LM during that crucial phase where the DM might become a bomb if dropped, the crew still have no choice but to risk it; an LK cosmonaut-pilot can switch over to the backup engine unless it was damaged in the course of the failure of the primary.

(I think my six small engine system is looking pretty good right now, is it not?)

Even then though there might be some chance the cosmonaut survives, if the fuels don't mix after all (he has a full load for ascent to worry about) and then it would be a matter of getting out of the LK and over to the other one, waiting to take him up again. Worst case then is the main engine going out like that and taking the other with it on the way up.

Assuming none of these things happen and the cosmonaut has landed safely on the moon and then ascended back to orbit, it is quite true that the Zond-11 mission had no way to practice the docking maneuver. But prior missions in Earth orbit could have done so; I forget if this was actually done already. If it is necessary to wait a while for the next window available to the Russians to launch their actual landing mission, the prime crew for that mission might still have time to go up on an N-2 "Proton" in a Soyuz OK (its "apparatus" or in American terms service module and return capsule sized for orbital missions, its Orbital Module modified with the docking probe) along with an LK with no D-Blok and practice the spacewalk from the Soyuz to the LK (I believe with the two craft still stacked as per a Lunar mission, the Soyuz inert atop the LK, so the cosmonaut would crawl the whole length of the Soyuz--admittedly shorter here than on a proper Soyuz-LOK--to get to the LK. Then separate the craft, maneuver apart, and practice the Soyuz spearing the LK. The latter would have a sort of grid mounted on top, an array of hexagonal or triangular holes, the former the aforementioned probe; the arrangement was designed to allow for an imprecise dock that simply secures the LK rigidly to the Soyuz to give a steady and short path back to the Orbital module hatch. This has probably been done already and the crew that did it is probably prime for the landing mission, but more practice to make it fresh and perhaps with modifications suggested by issues encountered in prior attempts would be a good thing to have--it would be very unlike NASA to give two missions in a row to the same pair of astronauts, but it seems a good way to prepare those two for the big time mission.

It remains true that there is still a lot that can go fatally wrong, but overall it seems the Soviets were more worried about contingencies and providing alternate devices and methods to cover them than the Americans were. The Yankees believe in studying, testing, then drilling the single right way to do things so that when the mission comes, equipment and astronauts perform their tasks flawlessly; the Soviets even OTL seemed more concerned to expend precious mass on backups. Here they have started earlier and practiced a lot more than OTL--I'd need an index of both American and Soviet missions in orbit to compare whether they've tested and practiced as often as Americans, less so or perhaps more so on some mission aspects.

Of course space travel is risky, but I don't think the Soviets are taking bigger risks than the Americans with this moon landing scheme of theirs; to the contrary it seems to me that perhaps they've worried a bit too much.
 
Hello Shevek,

1. On Humphrey: All around, he's a better president for NASA's prospects. As a Democrat, he will have an easier time getting NASA appropriations through a Democratic-controlled Congress. It's hard to imagine him wanting to terminate Apollo early, as Nixon very nearly did in 1970, with Weinberger talking him out of killing all flights after Apollo 15.

1968 was a bad year for Democrats, and this timeline won't change that; but with a race that ended up down to the wire thanks to a poor campaign by Nixon, and a major third party bleeding off a lot of his support, it certainly was possible for Humphrey to win, and it would not take much for it to happen.

2. Militarization of space: "I think that's the end of 2001 actually, and at least some of the weapons are also launched from Earth." That sounds right; it's been a while since I read it, and I don't have my copy handy. Either way, there's obviously significant militarization of space by the major powers.

3. On the LK Lander: "But now that I see the nature of the hazard, namely the not-quite-dry DM crashing down and possibly blowing up due to the hypergolic fuels splashing together, I have to point out to you that is one danger the LK categorically avoids!"

A last second abort is still dangerous for the LK, but in a different way, obviously, and with different risk profiles. Obviously the Apollo Descent Module was a much bigger beast and had those hypergolics; we are fortunate that no mission ever tried a last second abort. Teixiera's analysis indicates a high probability that it would have been fatal.

[After I read that, I quickly decided that an alt-history timeline involving an Apollo mission ending tragically would have its best prospect in Teixiera's last-minute abort scenario.]

We don't know as much about the LK lander as we do the LM, of course. It's interesting how the Soviets and the Americans achieved redundancy in very different ways, based on how much each trusted their hardware. In on sense, obviously, there's a lot of robustness in having a backup engine system on the LK, to say nothing of having a backup ascent module waiting on the surface. Of course, that only limits your risk so much. If the landing radars fail or the transponder fails and the cosmonaut ends up very long or very short on his landing, he'll be at risk for being too far away to reach the backup if he needs it. The U.S. achieved some considerable success with precision landings on its final five missions, but it wasn't easy, and I can't help the feeling that it would have been more difficult for the Soviets, even in a more successful timeline like this one.

And the Soviets, as I read this timeline, have never attempted a manned rendezvous or a manned landing and manned ascent with the LK yet, whereas the Americans have, both ITTL and OTL, and we learned, that was very valuable experience, not just in getting experience with the systems, but in learning how to deal with lunar mascons. I assume that the Soviets are better with rendezvous technique in this timeline, but I remain skeptical that it would have been as easy, and not just because their avionics were more primitive. Likewise, an architecture that requires spacewalks to transfer to and from the LK Lander ratchets up the risks of using it; every EVA is a risk, especially in those early days of space flight.

And part of the problem, indeed, is that we just know a whole lot less about how the LK would have operated. It never got a chance to show its stuff.
 
HAL is feeling fine

Since you did away the first contact storyline of 2001, that means the AI on-board spacecraft computer, HAL doesn't suffer a violent split-personality problem due other computer programmers(who are unexperienced with AI programming structures) will not be asked to reprogrammed him before the Discovery flight because no black monolith discovery and mysterious radio signals from Jupiter and no need of strict secrecy protocols for the astronauts;) So are you going to write the Discovery voyage with a sane HAL?
 
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