what do you think they would do with their fleet do what the other great powers did or focus on other ideas. would aircraft carriers or battleships be the center of their forces. the naval treaties of of the interwar period would apply but not the treaty of Versailles. this is my first post and military history is my obsession a symptom of autism so don't be to go wild.
1920s Germany if they win ww1 what do you think would have been done with the imperial navy if they didn't scuttle their ships.
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In a scenario where Germany wins the first world war the naval treaties which appeared in the 1920s will not come into being in the same form as OTL, It may be that some form of treaty is developed in time, and there are several reasons by which this could happen but it will depend on what exactly the peace conditions are between Germany and the Entente and how exactly the war played out.
Either way it is likely that the Kaiserlichemarine will be reduced significantly in size, Germany does not need to be the largest fleet in the world in most scenario's and while a powerful fleet for power projection and pride could be useful the German fleet will probably begin to be reduced shortly after the end of the war. As a cost saving measure more than anything as I dont see a scenario where a world war ends and Germany does not have serious financial difficulties.
Lets say the war ends in 1918 with a white peace in the west and Russian surrender in the east. The United States was briefly involved in the war, but was not involved long enough to contribute significant manpower to the front lines. Germany manages to negotiate a peace where the borders with France return to prewar, German control over much of Belgium is recognized as well.
In such a scenario you may see the Germans completing several of the ships they had under construction, the final Bayern class ships and Mackensens may see some work done, but much of the older ships in the fleet are likely to be scrapped as the empire will have very dire economic problems, everything from the predreadnought era is likely to be scrapped, and some of the dreadnoughts may follow.
New construction is likely to be paused for several years, though the Germans did have several interesting projects for the post war IOTL which were not completed due to the way the war ended.
I would expect a Germany that wins WW1 after 1914 to at least give a modicum of priority to the navy, because even with their new European pseudo-colonial Empire, they want to make sure to never be cut off most of the world market again.
Parity with the United Kingdom is likely a possibility now, too.
Parity with the United Kingdom is likely a possibility now, too.
Nothing. The ships are already built, scuttling is a net loss, building new ships is net loss. Pre dreadnoughts get definitely decommissioned, more early dreads may get sold off to other nations and a core of well maintained and capable ships is maintained to protect the new colonial gains. An agreement may be reached with Britain that would dictate tonnage either as way to sign the peace of maintain it post war. The navy would however suffer a prestige hit following its inactivity and perceived uselessness during the war. It probably is somewhat downsized in the coming decades.
They would have to repeal the Naval Law to make significant changes to the structure of the fleet. There would be no Washington Naval Treaty or equivalent but economic exhaustion would constrain fleets.
I can't recall where I saw a write up of this but in planning for the post war fleet and drawing from lessons of Jutland, only the Baden and Bayern were appropriate, all the other ships were too under gunned and too slow. The German Navy would persist with Zeppelins in lieu of carriers until other navies had proven them, especially if it would take money away from battleships that need to be replaced, this was the situation with U Boats prior to WW1.
A major bottleneck is the new lock at Wilhelmshaven that would need to be built and take about 6 years. This restricts meaningful growth in the size of German ships in the early to mid 1920's.
I can't recall where I saw a write up of this but in planning for the post war fleet and drawing from lessons of Jutland, only the Baden and Bayern were appropriate, all the other ships were too under gunned and too slow. The German Navy would persist with Zeppelins in lieu of carriers until other navies had proven them, especially if it would take money away from battleships that need to be replaced, this was the situation with U Boats prior to WW1.
A major bottleneck is the new lock at Wilhelmshaven that would need to be built and take about 6 years. This restricts meaningful growth in the size of German ships in the early to mid 1920's.
I could see the Germans retaining the Kaiser, Konig, Moltke, Seydlitz and the two Derflingers which survived the war in addition to the four Bayern and Mackensens as a core around which newer ships could be added, probably with several years between wrapping up wartime construction and any new construction to process lessons learned during the war, consolidate the fleet and give time for the economic situation to stabilize.
After this you may see the Germans laying down something derived from the L20 series in the early 1920s assuming no naval treaty comes into being. Whether it be at the instigation of the British or otherwise. Honestly I could see the Germans cutting way back on their fleet after a victory in WWI as the navy didnt need to be nearly as large as it for the needs of the empire, while the British would likely begin eying the United States as a potential naval rival post war. You may see something similar to OTL with the stirrings of an arms race beginning shortly after the end of the war between the US, UK, and imperial Japan with other powers thrown into the negotiations for good measure. In which case you could see Germany getting less tonnage than the US and UK, but still perhaps more than Japan.
This isn't the passage I was thinking of but essentially from Jutland the HSF had found that the 12" guns were too light.
Staff, Gary. German Battlecruisers of World War One: Their Design, Construction and Operations (pp. 1159-1160). Pen & Sword Books. Kindle Edition.
In August (1916) it was pointed out that now the USA intended to construct battlecruisers, where before they had vacillated. It was also pointed out that it would be unwise to interrupt the construction in case the budget was cut or discontinued and therefore at a meeting on 29 August it was again planned to construct Große Kreuzer and battleships. Instead of the former ratio of forty-one battleships to twenty large cruisers it would now be twenty-five to fifteen. These numbers appeared reasonable and attainable. The following day the design guidelines and type decisions for the immediate future were handed to the High Sea Fleet command for Vizeadmiral Scheer to comment on in light of his experiences in the Skagerrak Battle. The Flottenchef emphasised the need for improvements in speed and heavy artillery; however, it must be remembered that only two of his Panzerkreuzers in the battle, Lützow and Derfflinger, carried 30.5cm guns.
Staff, Gary. German Battlecruisers of World War One: Their Design, Construction and Operations (pp. 1159-1160). Pen & Sword Books. Kindle Edition.
The main reason I suggested Germany retain them is to maintain a fleet of some strength, ditching the fourteen 305mm battleships and battlecruisers would be a bit to far in the short term as it would leave Germany with to few better armed ships until the remaining Bayerns and the Mackensens could enter service. This is where the Kaiserlichemarine sticking with smaller guns bites them in the butt. In this scenario yeah the 12in gun has proven to be too small, but at the same time you are stuck with them unless you want to be left with too few modern ships to have a serious battleline. Doesnt mean you would be keeping them around for long, but until you get some more and better ships in service you are stuck with them.
Perhaps in meeting their 25BB and 15Cruisers then postwar the fleet could be a Fast Squadron (4 Mackensen, 2 Derfflinger, Moltke and Seydlitz) and a Slow Squadron (2 Baden, 4 Konigs, 2 Kaiser) and a 3rd Squadron of 3 Kaiser and 4 Helgoland. vdTann and 3 remaining Nassau scrapped, Wurttemberg, Sachsen not completed, ersatz Yorck cancelled.
This is 23 of 25 BB - seek funding for 2 L20.
For the 15 large cruisers adopt the FK 4 design 8650 tons and 8 5.9" guns at 33 knots. Start building 9 of these in the 1920's as you are short on cruisers.
Follow the initial 2 L20 with 6 more for a full squadron when the Slow Squadron can go into reserve. You can eventually add the 4 Mackensen and 2 Derfflingers back as 'large cruisers' for 15 ships and free up building for another 8 fast battleships in the 1930's to replace the 3rd squadron.
This is 23 of 25 BB - seek funding for 2 L20.
For the 15 large cruisers adopt the FK 4 design 8650 tons and 8 5.9" guns at 33 knots. Start building 9 of these in the 1920's as you are short on cruisers.
Follow the initial 2 L20 with 6 more for a full squadron when the Slow Squadron can go into reserve. You can eventually add the 4 Mackensen and 2 Derfflingers back as 'large cruisers' for 15 ships and free up building for another 8 fast battleships in the 1930's to replace the 3rd squadron.
Definitely the subject of big cuts in the 1920s because it doesn't match Germany's priorities. Germany's new priority is maintaining their network of vassal states in Eastern Europe and barring nationalist radicalism in France/Britain after a defeat, they don't have an immediate naval rival. But by "cuts" this means scrapping the old ships and slowly replacing them with new ones.
What did the German public think of Jutland or the U-Boat campaign at the time? Both are easy to spin as successes if Germany wins the war, and an actual decisive win (like completely destroying the section of the British fleet that responded to the attack on Scarborough in December 1914) would be clear proof of the German Navy's strength.
Very interesting scenario. Imo, there is still bound to be something like the WNT to forestall a continuing naval race between the major powers. Very curious what percentage would Germany get/accept, would it want full parity or would it accept 5:3 like Japan. But it depends how did they actually won (or at least did not lose) WW1. What is the status of Italy and France, if there was some kind of armistice rather than surrender i would think they would keep their navies as is.
Well, i would think that the british would finish all 4 Hoods while the germans the 4 Baden and 4 Mackensens before this alternate WNT. Then probably the Yorcks and L20 would have been under or starting construction, while the UK would have been just starting on their G3/N3? France and Italy, presumably in an even worse economic situation due to not having won the war, would have tried to keep going with the Normandies and Caracciolos, that is if they haven't actually conceded defeat and the germans would have dictated terms.
Also, most likely Austro-Hungary is still around? That would spice up things in the Med, as they have a powerful navy as well at least relative to Italy and France.
So we can have a WNT made of US, UK, Germany, Japan, France, Italy and Austro-Hungary. Just negotiating between all of them would be a female dog.
Well, i would think that the british would finish all 4 Hoods while the germans the 4 Baden and 4 Mackensens before this alternate WNT. Then probably the Yorcks and L20 would have been under or starting construction, while the UK would have been just starting on their G3/N3? France and Italy, presumably in an even worse economic situation due to not having won the war, would have tried to keep going with the Normandies and Caracciolos, that is if they haven't actually conceded defeat and the germans would have dictated terms.
Also, most likely Austro-Hungary is still around? That would spice up things in the Med, as they have a powerful navy as well at least relative to Italy and France.
So we can have a WNT made of US, UK, Germany, Japan, France, Italy and Austro-Hungary. Just negotiating between all of them would be a female dog.
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If Germany wins the war the circumstances that led to the mutiny wouldn't arise. It didn't just happen because the HSF was comprehensively outmatched and they didn't fancy committing suicide-by-Grand Fleet, but because Op Order 19 was just a German Ten-Go, and seen as such - a futile attempt to pretend that the navy wasn't useless and the defeat that was by then recognised as inevitable wasn't their fault.
YAAAAAAY!!! Hurrray!! LONG LIVE THE KAISER AND GERMAN NAVY!!!! Followed by mounting disappointment as more and more was revealed. Initially Germans claimed no losses or heavy damage in exchange for half a dozen British battleships. Then they were slowly admitting oh we lost this, and then after a while admitted to another ship being lost or damaged etc until it was just pointless thinking of it.
U-boat campaign wasn’t really thought of much in German public. It was just happening but not that impactful.
Garrison
Donor
Depends on when and how they win. If they end up controlling big pieces of Europe and the Russian Empire then the Army is going to be able to forcefully argue that the fleet was a waste of money, assuming it performs no better than OTL, and that consolidating their new lands in the East, especially with a potentially unstable Russia/USSR on their doorstep, must be the Empire's focus.
If we are talking a quick win in 1914 then they have no means of imposing any punitive terms on the British and unless they get out of the Low Countries then they can expect ongoing British hostility. Then they have to choose if they want to improve relations with the British, which means dialing back on the HSF, or doubling down with a new building program. In the latter case you can forget about any Naval Treaties, in the former there might be a mutual interest in a treaty so long as Germany is willing to accept remaining much smaller than the Royal Navy. Given that a 1914 win might well mean a revanchist France and Russia, and we know all too well how successful treaties to prevent rearming on the part of the defeated powers were IOTL, then postwar Germany might again find they can't afford to invest heavily in the HSF regardless of their ambitions.
Germany modifies most of them to coastal battleships
Heavier guns and more armor but less speed and range
Good enough to protect Baltic and channel ports from British
They build bigger submarines ( more range and more torpedoes)
Super fast and maneuverable torpedo boats
Aircraft carriers are an unnecessary luxury
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An interesting question.
With the WNT, keep in mind a victorious Germany isn't going to be retaining any of her 11" or 12" gunned ships while the US and UK fleets are retaining/building 14", 15" and 16" gunned ships.
So, TTL WNT would have Germany included, only question would be their ratio. Would it be a third '5', a '4'? I cannot really see them being a '3', but truthfully, cannot see them being allowed a '5' either, so maybe a solid '4'.
With the WNT, keep in mind a victorious Germany isn't going to be retaining any of her 11" or 12" gunned ships while the US and UK fleets are retaining/building 14", 15" and 16" gunned ships.
Not so clear the G3/N3 designs become as OTL without the experience of shooting up Baden.
One item left out of this and other subsequent posts on the technical matters. They need conversion to something more efficient than Coal. Either Germany acquires a reliable source of Petroleum, or it figures out how make the equivalent of bunker fuel from its plentiful low energy Brown Coal. To wring yet more efficiency they probably push ahead into turbines, electric, and diesels. Looking far ahead they may be jumping in early on the idea of Atomic power plants circa 1940. The USN funded its first investigation into Atomic power in 1938 & stood up a laboratory at the Philidelphia Navy Yard 1941-1942. No reason why the Germans can't do the same that year.