Map Thread VIII
- Thread starter Burton K Wheeler
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Greetings and salutations, new thread!
Thought I’d take a crack at redoing another of Tony Jones’s big-ass maps, this one being “Cliveless World”, in which Robert Clive succeeds at suicide, the French replace the British as the dominant power in India, and a flock of butterflies is let loose.
http://www.clockworksky.net/cliveless_world/ah_cliveless_map.html
I have made a number of modifications: I felt the long-term survival prospects of the Alyesko-Siberian Federation were somewhere between “slim” and “none” once the Russians got over their bout of excessive Economic Rationalism, so the Siberian bits have been reabsorbed into Russia and the Alaskan bits have joined the Columbians, seeing its loose federal structure as the best chance for retaining some self-government. I’ve also simplified central Asia a bit (given modern military tech and a lack of European respect for traditional wee feudal states, so many surviving micro-states seems unlikely) and made some provision for the Russian dislike of crumbly Asian frontiers.
I’ve also got rid of Florida – given how dinky Spanish settlement was OTL, it’s unlikely to survive land-hungry Southerners if independent – and changed the borders of Libertatia, which oddly goes right through the mountains to the west coast of South America. Also, there are no Mapuche that far south, AFAIK.
I’ve also done quite a bit of fiddling with Africa – as in Central Asia, as modern weapons penetrate the interior, a lot of small states are going to just be swallowed. Different ideological and economic imperatives means there hasn’t been much state-backed colonization away from the coasts, but there are a lot of “client states”, a couple states set up by European adventurers, and mineral-rich Katanga, which is essentially run by an alliance of corporations backed by mercenaries. (The local king gets a big cut of the spoils).
I’ve made the French Empire more loose and multi-tiered in terms of levels of influence, which seems necessary to have survived until 2011. Similarly, Indonesia has largely gained its independence, while Japan has been such a pain in the ass to the French that the only reason it hasn’t broken entirely with France is that they have the scary-ass Long Chinese right next door.
The world has somewhat different technological development than ours, with more emphasis on chemistry and biology and less on physics. There are a number of (often unhealthy) human clones around, genetically engineered animals and plants are commonplace, and farming methods are highly sophisticated. Meanwhile, the atom bomb is only about 13 years old, and computer tech is, well, different: analog “fluidic” computers have been around longer than OTL mechanical ones, and weren’t finally displaced by transistor-based digital ones until the 1990s. Space travel hasn’t gotten too far, with a Union pilot being the first in orbit in 1995: nobody has reached the Moon yet.
Eugenics never really was discredited, it was just replaced by the notion of improving humans being direct genetic manipulation rather than time-consuming breeding, although so far only a few countries have gone so far to create “designer babies”, most notoriously Canada. Bio-weapons are also advanced: a designer plague from Mexican labs got out of control and killed millions world-wide, leading to a rather brutal multinational intervention and new conventions on control of such technologies that most major powers have signed onto in public and at least partly ignore in private.
The world is dominated by three major alliances: the Russians and their (relatively few) allies, the Anglo-Prussian Union and theirs (Bohemians, the Portuguese states, etc.) and the French and theirs (most notably the Ottomans: also, the Spanish, etc.). Relations are relatively cordial in that although the conservative French dislike the “radical” Union and the formidable Russians, there is no deep ideological division between them: competition is mostly traditional national weenie-wagging and competition for resources and influence. Long China is probably the one nation they can all agree on disliking…
Bruce
Thought I’d take a crack at redoing another of Tony Jones’s big-ass maps, this one being “Cliveless World”, in which Robert Clive succeeds at suicide, the French replace the British as the dominant power in India, and a flock of butterflies is let loose.
http://www.clockworksky.net/cliveless_world/ah_cliveless_map.html
I have made a number of modifications: I felt the long-term survival prospects of the Alyesko-Siberian Federation were somewhere between “slim” and “none” once the Russians got over their bout of excessive Economic Rationalism, so the Siberian bits have been reabsorbed into Russia and the Alaskan bits have joined the Columbians, seeing its loose federal structure as the best chance for retaining some self-government. I’ve also simplified central Asia a bit (given modern military tech and a lack of European respect for traditional wee feudal states, so many surviving micro-states seems unlikely) and made some provision for the Russian dislike of crumbly Asian frontiers.
I’ve also got rid of Florida – given how dinky Spanish settlement was OTL, it’s unlikely to survive land-hungry Southerners if independent – and changed the borders of Libertatia, which oddly goes right through the mountains to the west coast of South America. Also, there are no Mapuche that far south, AFAIK.
I’ve also done quite a bit of fiddling with Africa – as in Central Asia, as modern weapons penetrate the interior, a lot of small states are going to just be swallowed. Different ideological and economic imperatives means there hasn’t been much state-backed colonization away from the coasts, but there are a lot of “client states”, a couple states set up by European adventurers, and mineral-rich Katanga, which is essentially run by an alliance of corporations backed by mercenaries. (The local king gets a big cut of the spoils).
I’ve made the French Empire more loose and multi-tiered in terms of levels of influence, which seems necessary to have survived until 2011. Similarly, Indonesia has largely gained its independence, while Japan has been such a pain in the ass to the French that the only reason it hasn’t broken entirely with France is that they have the scary-ass Long Chinese right next door.
The world has somewhat different technological development than ours, with more emphasis on chemistry and biology and less on physics. There are a number of (often unhealthy) human clones around, genetically engineered animals and plants are commonplace, and farming methods are highly sophisticated. Meanwhile, the atom bomb is only about 13 years old, and computer tech is, well, different: analog “fluidic” computers have been around longer than OTL mechanical ones, and weren’t finally displaced by transistor-based digital ones until the 1990s. Space travel hasn’t gotten too far, with a Union pilot being the first in orbit in 1995: nobody has reached the Moon yet.
Eugenics never really was discredited, it was just replaced by the notion of improving humans being direct genetic manipulation rather than time-consuming breeding, although so far only a few countries have gone so far to create “designer babies”, most notoriously Canada. Bio-weapons are also advanced: a designer plague from Mexican labs got out of control and killed millions world-wide, leading to a rather brutal multinational intervention and new conventions on control of such technologies that most major powers have signed onto in public and at least partly ignore in private.
The world is dominated by three major alliances: the Russians and their (relatively few) allies, the Anglo-Prussian Union and theirs (Bohemians, the Portuguese states, etc.) and the French and theirs (most notably the Ottomans: also, the Spanish, etc.). Relations are relatively cordial in that although the conservative French dislike the “radical” Union and the formidable Russians, there is no deep ideological division between them: competition is mostly traditional national weenie-wagging and competition for resources and influence. Long China is probably the one nation they can all agree on disliking…
Bruce
Thande
Donor
Aye, I can't claim to know what Sub-Roman Celtic would look like, so I basically just took modern Welsh and mucked about with the spelling a bit
That doesn't make any sense.
"Orellston" is the anglicisation of "Aurelium", which in OTL was francised to "Orléans" instead. And all the names in Britain, except for three or four along the east coast, are Celtic.
Thande
Donor
Impressive work, particularly good take on all the minor states in Africa. The thing I always remember about Cliveless World is the Panopticon Movement, but of course that doesn't come out on a map...
Outstanding job Bruce! I've longed to see a B_Munroization of this map, and when I finally saw it there was no disappointment to be had.
Cliveless World is really balkanized, especially compared to Puritan World and Monarchy World. I like it, it gives off the feeling of a more chaotic world even in modern times.
Panopticon means all-watching, if that gives a hint.
Also, those descriptions of Columbia and the Union of Louisiana and Carolina make the former sound like the ideal libertarian state, and the latter like the nightmare of one of us liberals.
Cliveless World is really balkanized, especially compared to Puritan World and Monarchy World. I like it, it gives off the feeling of a more chaotic world even in modern times.
Panopticon means all-watching, if that gives a hint.
Also, those descriptions of Columbia and the Union of Louisiana and Carolina make the former sound like the ideal libertarian state, and the latter like the nightmare of one of us liberals.
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A Map of the religions of Sulawesi (Yeah....) where the Hindus went north (from former Majapahit lands and Bali) to escape the growing homogeneous Islamic mass in the rest of Indonesia, only to be followed after the country is wrestled off the Dutch and British. The areas show the largest religion of that area and so there are a lot more Hindus spread throughout the south.
EDIT: WOW, that was a bad misspelling of Protestantism. Now it sounds like being a prostitute is a religion....
EDIT: WOW, that was a bad misspelling of Protestantism. Now it sounds like being a prostitute is a religion....
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When isn't Africa a mess? I just changed the borders in Central Africa as they have experienced significantly different History and administration than IOTL. Anyway, I apparently missed the existence of Kamerun and therefore adjusted the map a bit.
EDIT: To clarify, this map portrays 1890, but the international situation depicted stabilized around 1870.
Once again, the time came when the Mandate was tested - and, as with the Ming, over two hundred years ago, the great imperial edifice came crumbling down, making way for a new empire.
Yet the Qing did not fall completely - the rebels, even armed with European guns and supplies, were still far too disorganized and prone to fighting among themselves to reach their goal of fully expelling the old dynasty. The countryside was ravaged, and the victorious Muslims and heterodox Christians decided to bide their time until they were able to fully cleanse China of the Manchu scourge. The Qing, meanwhile, attempted to regroup, reigning over northern China as their ancestors, the Jin, did 700 years ago.
The Europeans decided to fracture China only after much hesitation and deliberation, and even then, some feared unintended consequences. Their fears were justified: the new kingdoms, struggling to organize but filled with vigor and zeal, caused more trouble than the British, French, or Russians had expected. Yaqub Beg, King of Kashgaria, raided extensively into Russian territory, preventing them from fully occupying the borderlands. The Panthay rebels in the south caused chaos in Burma, with the Shan defecting to their cause and setting back British colonization of the area by at least a decade. And the Taiping proved unfriendly towards British trade proposals, as well as capable against British guns.
An uneasy alliance was formed between the new Muslim kingdoms and the Taiping - Hong Xiuquan saw them as valuable allies against the Qing, but would they prevent him from ever fully proving himself worthy of the Mandate of Heaven? (Not that it mattered to him personally - he was the brother of Christ, and most of his people knew it, but many Chinese resolutely held to old ideas.) As Japan rose, it saw an ally in the Taiping, also. Perhaps the Heavenly King would abandon his eastern allies and partition the remaining Qing realms with Japan one day? Russia posed a problem, too - its leaders vacillated between propping up the old Qing as a path to eventual indirect rule, and throwing their lot in with the Taiping to divide its lands.
All that could be said in 1890 was that there were many conflicts to come: but no one could predict where exactly they would occur.
Once again, the time came when the Mandate was tested - and, as with the Ming, over two hundred years ago, the great imperial edifice came crumbling down, making way for a new empire.
Yet the Qing did not fall completely - the rebels, even armed with European guns and supplies, were still far too disorganized and prone to fighting among themselves to reach their goal of fully expelling the old dynasty. The countryside was ravaged, and the victorious Muslims and heterodox Christians decided to bide their time until they were able to fully cleanse China of the Manchu scourge. The Qing, meanwhile, attempted to regroup, reigning over northern China as their ancestors, the Jin, did 700 years ago.
The Europeans decided to fracture China only after much hesitation and deliberation, and even then, some feared unintended consequences. Their fears were justified: the new kingdoms, struggling to organize but filled with vigor and zeal, caused more trouble than the British, French, or Russians had expected. Yaqub Beg, King of Kashgaria, raided extensively into Russian territory, preventing them from fully occupying the borderlands. The Panthay rebels in the south caused chaos in Burma, with the Shan defecting to their cause and setting back British colonization of the area by at least a decade. And the Taiping proved unfriendly towards British trade proposals, as well as capable against British guns.
An uneasy alliance was formed between the new Muslim kingdoms and the Taiping - Hong Xiuquan saw them as valuable allies against the Qing, but would they prevent him from ever fully proving himself worthy of the Mandate of Heaven? (Not that it mattered to him personally - he was the brother of Christ, and most of his people knew it, but many Chinese resolutely held to old ideas.) As Japan rose, it saw an ally in the Taiping, also. Perhaps the Heavenly King would abandon his eastern allies and partition the remaining Qing realms with Japan one day? Russia posed a problem, too - its leaders vacillated between propping up the old Qing as a path to eventual indirect rule, and throwing their lot in with the Taiping to divide its lands.
All that could be said in 1890 was that there were many conflicts to come: but no one could predict where exactly they would occur.
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Thought: the two eastern Muslim states are going to be minority-Muslim.
Followup: they're going to have trouble surviving internal unrest if their rulers are unpopular, with the Tai'ping ready to invade and happy to stir up unrest.
Conclusion: if they survive, their rulers must be popular. Why? Because, like the Qing, the "spin" is that they are defenders of tradition and millenia of Chinese history against an alien heresy. These aren't Muslim states as much as they are Muslim-ruled states: the local Chinese elites are not being messed with, for they can be co-opted to maintain stability, since they are not exactly enthusiastic about becoming Chinese-type Christians and worshippers of Jesus's younger brother.
Bruce
To quote Mr Burns - Eeeeeexcelent...
Aye, I can't claim to know what Sub-Roman Celtic would look like, so I basically just took modern Welsh and mucked about with the spelling a bit
Actually, it should read "Ymerodraeth Prydeining". (The "Yr" bit isn't used if you're only writing the name, rather than making a refrence to it...)
"Brythoniaid" refers to the ethnic group, so basically you've written "The Empire of the Britons". But that works too, sort of...
And here's the BAM. (From B.A.M.
As opposed to the Man from UNCLE...
Though why there's a Union Timor, I don't know...
Maybe that name would be used to deliberately insult its rulers, much like how the ERE was referred to by Western Catholics as 'the Empire of the Greeks' ('Imperium Graecorum').
Its been a long time since I last saved a map, but Im saving this one!
Realy intriguing and well made.
Oh, yes, I'm aware that they'd be minority Muslim. Although I'm thinking that once you factor in refugees and migrations, Jinjiguo might be maybe half-Muslim? In any case, the two southern Muslim states resulted from the Muslim-led Dungan and Panthay Rebellions, the latter of which explicitly used an ideology that the Muslim minority should ally with the Han to free China from the Qing. But, yes, it's likely that Pingnan Guo will be vassalized or absorbed by the Taiping.
Its been a long time since I last saved a map, but Im saving this one!
Realy intriguing and well made.
Thanks!
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