TL-191: Filling the Gaps

bguy

Donor
Heres the same lists, but for the Confederate States. Are these choices still agreed on?)

I still don't think Robert Taylor makes sense as a Confederate president. OTL his family were Unionists in the Civil War, and they fled the South before TL-191's POD, so it's very unlikely he would even be living in the CSA, much less be a viable presidential candidate.
 
The Other Custer Siblings

George Armstrong Custer (December 5th, 1839-June 25th, 1930) has gone down in history as one of America's greatest military leaders, right up there with George Washington, Winfield Scott, Irving Morrell and so many others. He was born the eldest of five children, his younger siblings being Nevin Custer, Thomas "Tom" Custer, Boston Custer and Maraget Emma Custer Calhoun Maugham. Custer also had several other older half siblings.

It should be noted that none of Custer's aforementioned siblings came close to matching his successes, popularity or prominence. The sibling which came closest to to achieving Custer's level of overall prominence was his younger brother, Thomas "Tom" Custer, who had a prominent military career before his death at the Battle of Teton in 1881. Had he not died, who knows what he could have achieved. As for Custer's other siblings....

Nevin Johnson Custer (July 29th, 1842-February 25th, 1915) was the second eldest Custer siblings. Unlike his siblings, Nevin had been unable to serve in the United States Army due to rheumatism and asthma. He instead lived the life of a farmer, married and had several children. He died less than a year after the start of the Great War, and in recently discovered letters to his older brother George, written in Autumn of 1914, Nevin stated how proud he was of his brother's accomplishments in the US Army and wished him luck in defeating the Confederates and winning the Great War of the United States.

Boston Custer (October 31st, 1848-January 1st, 1908) was the youngest of the Custer brothers and second youngest of the Custer siblings. Unlike George Armstrong and Thomas and much like Nevin, he could not serve in the War of Succession due to poor health, as well as being too young to serve at the time. Nevertheless, Boston would later join George and Tom on a number of minor scouting missions during the Indian Wars of the 1870s. When the Second Mexican War broke out in 1881, he could again not serve in the army due to poor health, and lived a life of relative obscurity in Monroe, Michigan. After the war he gained some level of publicity for being the brother of the now even more famous George Armstrong Custer, but his life remained normal for the most part. He died on New Year's Day, 1908 in Monroe, Michigan at the age of 59, and like Thomas and Margaret Custer, he would never live to the Great War and the major part their brother played in it.

Margaret Emma Custer Calhoun Maugham (January 5th, 1852-March, 1910) was the only Custer sister. She married James Calhoun (August 24th 1845-September 29th, 1904), an solider in the United States Army and native of Ohio who served in the War of Secession, the Indian Wars and the Second Mexican War.
 
I still don't think Robert Taylor makes sense as a Confederate president. OTL his family were Unionists in the Civil War, and they fled the South before TL-191's POD, so it's very unlikely he would even be living in the CSA, much less be a viable presidential candidate.

Good point. Who would be a good replacement? Maybe Stephen Mallory II who was States Rights Gist's VP?
 

bguy

Donor
Good point. Who would be a good replacement? Maybe Stephen Mallory II who was States Rights Gist's VP?

The only problem I would have with Mallory is that States Rights Gist was considered a failure as president. Thus it seems unlikely that his successor would be someone from his administration.

An alternate possibility could be Jim Hogg of Texas. OTL he had some Populist leanings which the plantation aristocracy that dominates the Whig Party would not like, but in the wake of the failure of the Gist Administration the Bourbons are probably somewhat discredited which might make it possible for a more populist candidate to grab the Whig nomination.

Perhapsburg also suggested a couple of other possibilities as a Taylor replacement (Charles James Faulkner Jr. and Marcus Aurelius Smith).
 
The only problem I would have with Mallory is that States Rights Gist was considered a failure as president. Thus it seems unlikely that his successor would be someone from his administration.

An alternate possibility could be Jim Hogg of Texas. OTL he had some Populist leanings which the plantation aristocracy that dominates the Whig Party would not like, but in the wake of the failure of the Gist Administration the Bourbons are probably somewhat discredited which might make it possible for a more populist candidate to grab the Whig nomination.

Perhapsburg also suggested a couple of other possibilities as a Taylor replacement (Charles James Faulkner Jr. and Marcus Aurelius Smith).

I like the reasoning behind having Jim Hogg as POTCS. His father Joseph L. Hogg was also a Confederate general during the Civil War (ITTL the War of Secession) as well as a veteran of the Mexican-American War, so having a father who fought in said wars, especially the former, gives him a good amount of prestige.

Charles James Faulkner Jr. had a father who was a politician and fought in the Civil War/War of Secession, so he seems like a good choice as well.

Marcus Aurelius Smith's parents never fought in the Civil War/War of Secession. His lack of prestige compared to the other too might hurt him at the 1897 Whig Convention.
 
I can get on board with Hogg, having him more of a populist and a reformer would be interesting. Plus he would be the first CS President from west of the Mississippi. the one question i have is how does he fit into the whole US-CS reproachment of the early 1900's.

Charles James Faulkner Jr. seems to fit that role because of his diplomatic work while senator.

I have an issue with the Wade Hampton V as VP. He is not mentioned as VP in the books. Both Craigo and I have him as a former Commander of the Army of Northern Virginia. In my Gabriel Semmes post I had him as Senator of South Carolina and a Semmes critic.

I had him as running on the platform that Semmes policies created the inflation. He ran on a campaign that appealed to those suffering from the effects of the inflation. Having him as Semmes VP would more than likely make the CS voters blame him for the defeat and the inflation.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=9738945&postcount=1060
 

bguy

Donor
I can get on board with Hogg, having him more of a populist and a reformer would be interesting. Plus he would be the first CS President from west of the Mississippi. the one question i have is how does he fit into the whole US-CS reproachment of the early 1900's.

Maybe Hogg was a protege of John Reagan in TL-191. Reagan would likely be a dominant figure in Texas politics following a Confederate victory, and he seems like the type who would favor better relations with the US. And if Hogg was one of Reagan's proteges than it would be natural for him to adopt Reagan's foreign policy ideas.

Alternatively, Hogg could favor rapprochement for purely budgetary reasons. OTL he favored having the State of Texas establish a pension for indigent Confederate veterans. Maybe he wants to establish a more comprehensive, national version of such a program and needs to cut Confederate defense spending to pay for his proposal.

Charles James Faulkner Jr. seems to fit that role because of his diplomatic work while senator.

My only issue with Faulkner is that we already have so many Confederate Presidents from Virginia. Though admittedly that's not necessarily unrealistic (just look at how many Presidents Ohio churned out OTL in the Gilded Age).

I have an issue with the Wade Hampton V as VP. He is not mentioned as VP in the books. Both Craigo and I have him as a former Commander of the Army of Northern Virginia. In my Gabriel Semmes post I had him as Senator of South Carolina and a Semmes critic.

I had him as running on the platform that Semmes policies created the inflation. He ran on a campaign that appealed to those suffering from the effects of the inflation. Having him as Semmes VP would more than likely make the CS voters blame him for the defeat and the inflation.

Agreed. Semmes' presidency was perceived as an even bigger failure than the Gist presidency, so it seems unlikely the Whigs would nominate anyone affiliated with the Semmes Administration.
 
In response to the above posts, Jim Hogg seems good as POTCS. The stuff with Hogg in relation to reproachment also makes sense.

Maybe Charles James Faulkner Jr. can be his VPOTCS as sort of a compromise between the Populist and Conservative Whig factions. I had Thomas G. Jones as VPOTUCS at that time on the list, though as a former general, the Whigs aren't likely to nominate him, what with the CS tired of electing Generals to the Presidency. Naturally this would extend to the Vice-Presidency.

So if Wade Hampton V can't be Semmes' VP, and the reasoning behind it makes allot of sense, who should it be instead? The only ideas I have are Carter Glass, who was mentioned as being CS Secretary of the Treasury during Woodrow Wilson's Administration and John W. Davis, who IOTL lost to Calvin Coolidge in the 1924 election.

I also have a good name for Russia's Fascist party IITL; the Russian Motherland Front (Русский Родина фронт). I hope the translation is correct, I used Google translate.
 
List of Presidents of the CSA

1. Jefferson Davis (Whig) (1861-1868)
2. Pierre Gustave Toutant-Beauregard (Whig) (1868-1874)
3. Fitzhugh Lee (Whig) (1874-1880)
4. James Longstreet (Whig) (1880-1886)
5. Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson (Whig) (1886-1892)
6. States Rights Gist (Whig) (1892-1898)
7. James Stephen Hogg (Whig) (1898-1904)
8. Champ Clark (Whig) (1904-1910)
9. Woodrow Wilson (Whig) (1910-1916)
10. Gabriel Semmes (Whig) (1916-1922)
11. Wade Hampton V (Whig) (1922) ††
12. Burton Mitchel III (Whig) (1922-1934)

13. Jake Featherston (Freedom) (1934-1944) ††
14. Donald Partridge (Freedom) (1944)


†† = Assassinated

List of Vice Presidents of the CSA

1. Alexander Stephens (Whig) (1861-1868)
2. James Seddon (Whig) (1868-1874)

3. Henry S. Foote (Independent) (1874-1880)
4. Lucius Q. C. Lamar (Whig) (1880-1886)
5. Joseph Clay Stiles Blackburn (Whig) (1886-1892)
6. Stephen Mallory II (Whig) (1892-1898)
7. Charles James Faulkner Jr. (Whig) (1898-1904)
8. Henry W. Grady (Whig) (1904-1910)
9. Gabriel Semmes (Whig) (1910-1916)
10. Luke Edward Wright (Whig) (1916-1922)
11. Burton Mitchel III (Whig) (1922)

Vacancy by ascension (1922-1928)
12. Jonathan Jackson (Whig) (1928-1934)
13. Willy Knight (Freedom) (1934-1938)
Vacancy by removal (1938-1940)
14. Donald Partridge (Freedom) (1940-1944)
 
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Kingdom of Greece (Part Two)

The Second Balkan War began on June 29th, 1913, and lasted only a little under two months, ending on August 10th, 1913. The war, fought between an alliance of Serbia, Romania, Greece, Montenegro and (ironically) the Ottoman Empire against Bulgaria, proved a victory for the aforementioned alliance and a defeat for Bulgaria. As a result, Bulgaria lost a good amount of territory to its neighbors. It was this defeat and subsequent loss of territory which would turn Bulgaria into a revanchist local power and send it drifting towards the camp of the Quadruple Alliance. Meanwhile, Greece, through its victory, had gained the lands of southern Epirus, the southern half of Macedonia, Crete and the Aegean islands, save for the Dodecanese Islands, which were occupied by Italy as a result of the Italo-Turkish War (1911-1912). These gains nearly doubled Greece's area and population, proving to the Greek people and government that the Venizelist reforms had been a great success.

Sadly, King George I never lived to see either Greece's success in the First or Second Balkans Wars. On March 18th, 1913, two months before the end of the First Balkan War, King George I of Greece was assassinated by Greek anarchist Alexandros Schinas. As a result, he was succeeded by his son Constantine, who became King Constantine I of Greece. Interestingly enough, George, reaching his fiftieth year as King, had already planned to abdicate after his Golden Jubilee celebrations in October of 1913 and give the throne to Constantine as a result.

In July of 1914, the First Great War broke out after the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand in Sarajevo. A year earlier in 1913, Greece had signed a defense pact with Serbia, stating that if Serbia was attacked by Bulgaria, Greece would come to their aid. When Bulgaria, diplomatically close though not yet allied to the Central Powers, began mobilizing, Prime Minister Eleftherios Venizelos believed that if Bulgaria did indeed join the Central Powers and proceeded to invade their ally of Serbia, Greece would be obliged to assist Serbia and as a result join the Entente. Venizelos also promised to the Entente nations that Greece would join their alliance if the Entente nations agreed to land 150,000 troops in the city of Salonika, which would be used as the launching point for an invasion against Bulgaria and the Ottoman Empire. Nevertheless, Venizelos proved unsuccessful in getting Greece to join the Entente due to King Constantine. King Constantine, the brother-in-law of Kaiser Wilhelm II through his marriage to Wilhelm II's sister Sophie of Prussia, was a known Germanophile due to his aforementioned family ties and that fact that he had undergone military training in Germany many years previously. As a reuslt, King Constantine would not allow Greece to join the Entente Powers. However, he would not allow Greece to join the Central Powers either, as being allied to the Ottoman Empire, a long time enemy, was too much to stomach for not only Constantine, but the Greek government and people as well. Not to mention, Greece had nothing to gain from joining the Central Powers. Thus, Constantine decided that Greece would remain neutral in the Great War. Prime Minister Venizelos strongly disagreed with the King. In his eyes, not only was Greece obligated to join the Entente through the Serbo-Greek Treaty, but joining on the side of the Entente would allow Greece to fulfill the "Megali Idea" and annex Greek lands in Anatolia. King Constantine and the Anti-Venizelists argued that the Serbo-Greek treaty would be null and void if Serbia was invaded by a great power, rendering any other arguments irrelevant. Nevertheless, perhaps to appease the Venizelists in some way, King Constantine allowed British and ANZAC troops to use the island of Lemnos as a base to mount their (disastrous) attack on Gallipoli.

In October 3rd, 1915, Prime Minister Venizelos took this measure one step further and invited a Franco-British expeditionary force to land at Salonika. This proved the final straw for King Constantine, and on October 5th, 1915, King Constantine removed Venizelos from office, dissolving the Liberal-dominated Parliament and calling for new elections. On Constantine's orders, the Franco-British expeditionary force was refused entry into Salinoka, or any Greek land for that matter, firmly cementing Greece's status as a neutral nation. To add insult to injury for Venizelos, on October 14th, 1915, nine days after he was forced from power and fled to his native home of Crete, Bulgaria joined the Central Powers. Venizelos was outraged. As a result, while in exile in Crete, Venizelos had began planning a coup against the Greek government of King Constantine I and his supporters. He would spend the next seven months planning said coup, and was even in contact with British, French and Russian agents, whose respective governments supported putting Venizelos back in power and having an ally with which to attack Bulgaria and the Ottoman Empire along with.

Venizelos' planning came to an abrupt end in May of 1916. It was in this month and year, specifically on May 5th, 1916, that the Battle of Verdun had ended in a crushing defeat for France at the hands of the Germans. It this that signaled to many, including Venizelos, that France would ultimately be defeated in the Great War. With France crushed by the Germans by 1917 at the earliest, this left only the British and the Russians to assist Greece against Bulgaria and the Ottoman Empire. Venizelos knew that without the French to assist Greece, any war against the Central Powers would most likely be unsuccessful. After a few months of pondering the issue over, in July of 1916, Venizelos sent a letter to King Constantine, telling the King that, based on the events of Verdun, that he felt Greece would be better of remaining neutral in the Great War. His reasoning in his letter was that with France facing defeat, they would not be able to assist the Greeks as they could before, and as a result, Entente assistance to Greece against the Central Powers would not be up to satisfactory levels. King Constantine forgave Venizelos and personally invited him back to Athens to participate in the next elections. It is unknown if King Constantine knew of Venizelos' conspiring with Entente agents, but if he did, it seems he was willing to let sleeping dogs lie.

Venizelos returned to Athens that August and won a new series of elections in May, 1917, running on a platform of Greek neutrality and upholding the previous Venizelan reforms. By 1917, Greek neutrality in the Great War had become a much more favorable option to the Greek people, due the withdraw of Russia from the Great War and the mutinies in the French armies. As a result, Greece would remain neutral throughout the rest of the Great War, just as it always had been.

The Interwar Period proved to be a quite time for Greece [1]. Nevertheless, relations remained tense between Greece and the Ottoman Empire, which, during the 1920s, was becoming stronger and in wake of a number of internal reforms. It was also during the Interwar Period that many Greeks living in the Ottoman Empire, such as the Pontic Greeks for example, moved to Greece proper, something which was supported by many in the Greek governments of the time. About 40% of Greeks living in the Ottoman Empire left to Greece, Russia, the United States or other places. The rest stayed, wanting to preserve their culture and cooperate with the Ottoman government. As a result, a sort of detente began between Greece and the Ottoman Empire, with most in Greece knowing war against the Ottomans would be a fools errand.

in 1923, King Constantine I died in Athens and was succeed by his son Prince George, who became King George II of Greece. It would be during the reign of King George that, in 1929, the Great Depression began. Much like the rest of the world, the Depression economically devastated Greece, a country which had already known bankruptcy back in the 1890s. As a result, many people in Greece began to look for radical solutions to their problems, both to the left, with the Greek Communist Party, and to the right, with the Freethinkers' Party led by Greek General Ioannis Metaxas. Metaxas, a veteran of the Greco-Turkish War of 1897 and the Balkan Wars, modeled his Freethinkers' Party on Benito Mussolini's ill-fated National Fascist Party in Italy and Oswald Mosley's British National Party in Great Britain. Like the aforementioned parties in Italy and Great Britain, Metaxas' Freethinkers' Party was nationalist, revanchist and staunchly monarchist. Nevertheless, Metaxas would never come to power, as Greece's government was able to remain stable during the Depression. Metaxas died in 1941, his party dying with him.

During the Second Great War, Greece, under the rule of Prime Minister Themistoklis Sofoulis since the 1936 elections, once again, decided to remain neutral. This was so for a number of reasons. First of all, Greece did not have much to gain from joining either Alliance, though they were courted on numerous occasions by the Entente, especially Britain, France and Russia, who appealed to Greece on the grounds that they had won Greece independence in 1821 and were their major allies for several decades afterwards. In addition, Greece have the satisfactory manpower to fight against the Central Powers, in particular, Bulgaria and the Ottoman Empire. Thus, just as before Greece sat out the Second Great War, though, modeled on the Italian, Brazilian and Swedish policies of neutrality, traded actively with both the Entente and Central Powers, becoming very wealthy in the process.

In the years after the Second Great War, Greece continued to be a stable and relatively prosperous nation. Greece expanded its territory once again on July 30th, 1952, when Greece purchased the Dodecanese islands from the Kingdom of Italy.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[1] Without the National Schism, Greco-Turkish War, and other events that began as a result of said events, Greece is much more stable ITTL.
 
List of Canadian Prime Ministers

1. Sir John A. MacDonald (Conservative) (1867-1875)
2. Alexander Mackenzie (Liberal) (1875-1877)
1. Sir John A. MacDonald (Conservative) (1877-1891) †
3. Sir John Abbott (Conservative) (1891)

4. Sir Wilfrid Laurier (Liberal) (1891-1901)
5. Sir Charles Tupper (Conservative) (1901-1905)
6. Sir Samuel Hughes (Conservative) (1905-1909)

7. Sir Robert Borden (Liberal) (1909-1917)


† = Died in Office
 
Currently searching through my TL-191 WW2 books, but I'm sure Borden was a Conservative like OTL. And in 1891, no way could Laurier win.

I was just following Craigo's Canada article in this thread. Granted the article is over four years old so maybe there are some things that could need changing.
 
I was just following Craigo's Canada article in this thread. Granted the article is over four years old so maybe there are some things that could need changing.


There isn't anything in the books about Borden party one way or the other.
 
There isn't anything in the books about Borden party one way or the other.

I guess were good in that regard then. I think Borden was a Liberal before becoming Canadian Prime Minister IOTL.

Anyways, why wouldn't Laurier be able to be elected in 1891?
 
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