The Forge of Weyland

First prototype is sept 40, at which point the world has changed.
No, the first prototype (the XP-39) flew in January of 1939. By this point, the USAAF has already ordered the first initial production batch (in September of 1939), though they wouldn't be delivered until mid-1941, and the assembly of the second batch of prototypes (the YP-39s) is well underway. Cancellation is really unlikely unless something massively changes in the U.S. strategic situation...and the whole point of this timeline is that the world hasn't changed. The U.S. had already decided to invest in (limited) numbers of P-38s before the Fall of France or even cash and carry IOTL, if France doesn't fall why would they suddenly decide that they don't want it after all?

You also seem to be misunderstanding how the USAAF worked prior to World War II, which is that it bought small numbers of various aircraft to experiment with new technologies and keep different manufacturers afloat, rather than the larger orders seen during World War II or afterwards during the Cold War. Only 155 B-17s were delivered between 1937 and Pearl Harbor, for instance, compared to the more than 12 000 that ultimately ended up being built. It's not a matter of "choose between the P-38 and the B-29," because realistically the USAAF is only going to order a hundred or so of either and anyway P-38 production will almost certainly be wrapped up and done before the B-29 even flies given OTL delays combined with peacetime budgets and priorities. More likely still, the USAAF just orders a series of one-off prototypes experimenting with "advanced" technologies for high-altitude long-range bombers like the XB-15, and maybe gets around to ordering an actual B-29 equivalent in the mid-1940s, by which point they're already looking for a P-38 replacement, maybe one of those new-fangled jets...

...of course, all of this is assuming that the U.S. doesn't somehow get involved in the war anyway.
 
No, the first prototype (the XP-39) flew in January of 1939. By this point, the USAAF has already ordered the first initial production batch (in September of 1939), though they wouldn't be delivered until mid-1941, and the assembly of the second batch of prototypes (the YP-39s) is well underway. Cancellation is really unlikely unless something massively changes in the U.S. strategic situation...and the whole point of this timeline is that the world hasn't changed. The U.S. had already decided to invest in (limited) numbers of P-38s before the Fall of France or even cash and carry IOTL, if France doesn't fall why would they suddenly decide that they don't want it after all?

You also seem to be misunderstanding how the USAAF worked prior to World War II, which is that it bought small numbers of various aircraft to experiment with new technologies and keep different manufacturers afloat, rather than the larger orders seen during World War II or afterwards during the Cold War. Only 155 B-17s were delivered between 1937 and Pearl Harbor, for instance, compared to the more than 12 000 that ultimately ended up being built. It's not a matter of "choose between the P-38 and the B-29," because realistically the USAAF is only going to order a hundred or so of either and anyway P-38 production will almost certainly be wrapped up and done before the B-29 even flies given OTL delays combined with peacetime budgets and priorities. More likely still, the USAAF just orders a series of one-off prototypes experimenting with "advanced" technologies for high-altitude long-range bombers like the XB-15, and maybe gets around to ordering an actual B-29 equivalent in the mid-1940s, by which point they're already looking for a P-38 replacement, maybe one of those new-fangled jets...

...of course, all of this is assuming that the U.S. doesn't somehow get involved in the war anyway.

In which case its an irrelevant aircraft. The USAAC bought as many aircraft as it had funding for - so large peacetime orders for the P38, A17, B18 and as soon as the funds become available. Which generally is after the fall of France but there are large orders on a peacetime meaning of large for the B25 and B26 500 for the P40 and so on in 39. The B17 is not ordered in this period because the Secretary of the Army has rejected the long range bomber concept and prioritised tactical support of the army. The AAC had asked for 200 B17 and 15 B15 between 35 and 39 they got 14.

The 39 level of funding is a given that takes the USAAC up to 5,500 aircraft but the tactical radius required is 2,000 miles ( which the B17 meets) going up to 3,000 miles then by 40 4,000 miles which specifically is for the B29. Given the costs of B29 development thats your budget. What they will probably get is the P40, B25,B26, C47 orders and 500 odd B17 plus trainers and experimental types.

At that point why spend limited time and money trying to make an already old design work?
 
And a few brigades worth of soldiers that later might come in handy in the DEI and other theatres of war.

Surely the USA will have no problems in supplying them with weapons and other necessary material. Specially if these are paid with lovely, glittery, diamonds and lovely gold. The Dutch should be advised not to trust too much what those Brewster salesmen tell them about their fighters, though.
Remember Trust Gruman, not Brewester...
 
It's the 16th, so 8th Pz is on the road, heading for Hirson. They aim to be there by the evening.
Giraud is still behind the curve rather, he's aiming to cut off 1st/2nd Panzer, he doesn't know 6th Panzer is joining them or exactly where 8th Panzer is. That's one of the reasons he's a bit more spread out than would be preferred.
Ironically the fast advance of the panzers makes it easier for him, he's going to find the follow-up force rather than the actual tanks, at least at first.
If Giraud hits follow on formations, feel will be able to deduce the line of travel of the Panzers, and send units to hit the Rear of the panzers. Cut their supply line, engage them run them out of fuel and ammunition.
 
16th May 1940 (part 5)
16th May (part 5)

The Battle of Beaumont (part 1)


It was at around 11am on the morning of the 16th that the armoured cars of 1st Armoured's cavalry screen encountered their counterparts moving west along N40 from Phillipville. While they had been expecting this, their arrival was rather earlier - and closer - than had been anticipated. So they radioed the information back, then the heavy armoured cars decided that it would be a waster not to try out their 2pdr guns in action, and proceeded to ambush and brew up three of the half-tracks the Germans were using for reconnaissance, then as per their orders, withdrew west, making sure the retreat was seen by the Germans. They didn't want to scare them off, after all.

This scenario - waiting for an attack, stopping it and then counterattacking - was one that had been practiced by the RTC before the war. It had been seen as one of their two main functions, the other being an offensive to break and get behind a defence. So while some of the men hadn't been pre-war regulars, a lot were, and they were actually looking forward to finally putting all the training into practice.

The vehicles they had spotted were the screen of the advancing 5th Panzer Division. They weren't too surprised to have run into opposition - they knew that there were a lot of French units in the area - and they had every expectation of disrupting and driving through them. They were keen to show they could advance faster than their comrades in the 7th Panzer Division, who were currently moving south-west from the Phillipville area. The intention was to drive on Beaumont, pause overnight then advance to Berlaimont, the intention being to work around the southern flank of 9th and 1st Armies, forcing them to withdraw.

Outflanking the French armies would indeed disrupt, even effectively destroy the Dyle defence line, and their intelligence had indicated that the only division in front of them as they broke out from the area west of the Dinant bridge was the French 18th Division. This was an A-class reserve formation, so the plan was to encircle the division to the north and south as they advanced west, and cause it to surrender as they were surrounded. The experience with other French divisions a few days ago had shown that French moral was very shaky, and that they did not respond well to being surrounded, especially by panzers.

If the French reserves hadn't been about to arrive, this might not have been a bad estimate. However by the time they arrived, 18th Division was already retiring to the north, and knew that a counterattack would soon be in progress. If they did end up being surrounded - always a possibility for an infantry division faced by the fast-moving panzers - they were to hold fast and wait for the counterattack to relieve them. As it was, the 66th Infantry Regiment, their rearguard, was badly mauled, indeed rendered combat-ineffective, as the panzers swept on towards Beaumont, the act of being caught in a withdrawal making them more vulnerable.

General Evans expected the main line of advance of the panzers to be along the N40, although his screen covered the area to the north of this just in case. To the south, his second cavalry regiment was both covering any southern approach and keeping contact with the 5th Division under General Franklyn. The 5th Division had reported intermittent contact with French armoured cars to the south, and the currest guess was that these belonged to 3DLC who were known to be somewhere in the area. They only had light tanks, and so could not realistically be expected to hold off a full panzer division.



5th Panzer were extremely confident as the drove west. The actions of the last few days had boosted their already high morale, and they had every confidence that they would be part of the planned encirclement that would trap and destroy the Allies 1st Army Group. Granted, they had run into some armoured cars, but they could be brushed aside easily, and a unit of Pz II's was sent forward to deal with them. The British armoured cars retreated when they saw the panzers, losing one armoured car to their 20mm guns, but their orders were clear : Establish contact, report, then fall back and get them to follow you onto the main body of the division.

Evans had disposed his force by the book. The 1st Armoured Brigade covering the centre and north of the expected approach, the 3rd RTR covering the southern approach. He had the heavy Cutlass tanks of 3rd Armoured Brigade to the rear as his main reserve, ready to support the infantry when required. There was still worry as to what panzer forces were where, and he wanted a substantial force available in case of surprises, so 4th RTR was being kept back for this. The tanks had made a few changes to their positions once the cavalry report had come in, but not many - they were hull-down if possible against the expected axis of attack, and concealed where cover was available. Their supporting infantry was a little way behind them; the aim was to first blunt the leading panzer attack, then if they fell back, draw them onto the infantry, who were now dug and looking forward to trying their anti-tank guns in anger. If the panzers retreated, they would follow, and the infantry would re-mount their carriers to support them. All they needed now was some targets.

Their first sign was the passing of a number of armoured cars through their position; the cars had, as ordered, driven straight down the road and the panzers had followed them, a cloud of dust further back along the road giving an indication of their position. The tank crews knew that at some point they would be spotted, but they had confidence in their armour and the ability of the HV3pdr to destroy the attackers. They also expected to have the advantage of surprise, at least for the initial attacks. Then men of 1st Armoured Brigade loaded anti-tank rounds and peered through their sighting scopes trying to get a better look at what was coming at them.

The initial force was a number of Pz I and Pz II tanks, who weren't advancing with what the experienced men in 1AB considered to be sufficient caution. They were proved correct when one of the leading tanks suddenly stopped around 800 yards from their lead tank. Assuming this meant someone over there had seen something, they opened fire. The results were all that the men of 1AB had desired. In under two minutes, five Pz II and two Pz I tanks were wrecked and on fire, the remaining Pz I, having remained untouched by some minor miracle, heading back as fast as its tracks could carry it.

While this had been going on, General von Hartlieb, commander of 5th Panzer, had been getting some interesting news. Examination of the enemy armoured car had shown that it was British, not French as had been assumed at first. That surprised him; the British were supposed to be in Belgium, hiding behind the Dyle line with the Belgians and 1st French Army. What were British armoured cars doing here? He was still discussing the implications of this with his staff when the reports of the first contact between his lead tanks and a so-far unidentified force of tanks came in. While the surviving Pz I hadn't identified the opposition, he wondered if they were also British. There was really only one way to find out, although he had some dark thoughts about the lack of the sort of Luftwaffe support he was used to, due to the terror raids on Holland. He would ideally have liked to get some reconnaissance as to what was actually awaiting him, but while intelligence rated the British tanks in France about as good as the French ones, their tactics had easily beaten the supposedly-superior French tanks, and he saw no reason why the same wouldn't work against the British.

Still, verve should be tempered with prudence, so he ordered the divisions 'tail' to halt while his armour and infantry dealt with the problem. Looking at his maps it was very likely the British were guarding the road junction of Beaumont, to block his advance towards Cambrai. He would move up some of his medium tanks, advancing along the road, backed up by some of his infantry. His lighter tanks would move north and south of where he suspected the British were, aiming to surprise them and hit them in the flanks. Ideally his frontal attack would make progress, but if there were problems they would pull back, tempting the British to follow and pulling them onto his anti-tank guns.

The attack was quick to organise - these were all standard tactics for his experienced division, and the marching order was intended to allow this sort of deployment to be done quickly and easily. His final task was to report the existence of what he was presuming to be a British force, which seemed to include at least some tanks, and his attention to attack at 1300.
 
I was going to do all this battle as one piece, but its getting bigger than expected, so I've split it into two parts.
It's not just to taunt you, honest!
 
No dammit I want it all. Now!!!

This is all very fun. This seems to just be 5th panzer div. *(edit) will von Hartlieb let GOC 7th Pzr div know about this little fight, and how soon can it reinforce the 5th. As if it is just going to be one fight, tea, then on to seconds. I feel the poor Germans are going to be heavily mauled.

*(where is the other one)
 
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Indeed 5th Panzer is being cautious at least, but the BEF's doctrine is similar to that of the PanzerWaffe, which emphasizes drawing an enemy force onto emplaced anti-tank guns. The best they're going to get is localized counter attacks designed to provoke the Germans into doing something rash.

While the 5th might not fall for that, the 7th Panzer has Rommel at the helm. I suspect that the Ghost division is going to get that reputation for a different reason.
 
I know it's not important in the greater scheme of things but I wonder what's happening with a certain retired half German, half British Gentleman living in the Netherlands?

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Thats not pork. Pork is jobs, RnD really does not employ enough people. If you want pork buy more production aircraft and set up a plant in my District goddamit.

RnD is great if you can siphon off funds for kickbacks but you dont get much R or D as a result.
That might have been the case in the past but in my experience, in avionic systems, a lot more people, particularly engineers, are employed in development than once the system goes into production. Of course the real profit is made post-production in repairs & support.
 
Battle of Beaumont part 2
16th May (part 6)

The Battle of Beaumont (part 2)


After the nasty surprise the last group of tanks had encountered, this time the advance was much more cautious. The light tanks had been replaced by PzIII tanks, and a section of Pz IV were following behind them in case infantry needed to be cleared. They were in contact with the divisional artillery, and all was properly prepared.

While this group of tanks was grinding towards 1AB, two more formations were spreading out to the north and the south of the estimated British position, intending to flank them and then attack the rear of the formations. These formations consisted of mainly Pz I and Pz II tanks, with some of his limited supply of Pz III to strengthen them. The British watched the approach along the road with interest; this time it was obvious that far more care was being taken, and that the tanks were leading on infantry.

Since it was obvious that by now the Germans knew where they were, the Sabre tanks opened fire at 1,000 yards. This time they started to the routine of shoot-move-shoot they had assiduously practiced over the last year, as the approaching force looked too strong to defeat from ambush. The initial advantage of firing from cover enabled the lead troops to destroy four Pz III tanks in the first minute. The panzers responded almost immediately, and a moving tank battle ensued. This wasn't as decisive as either side wanted; the British were hoping to draw the panzers back onto the rest of the Brigade and the anti-tank gunline, while the Germans would have preferred the British to advance and allow their infantry to help deal with them.

The big problem for the panzers was the inability of their 37mm guns to hurt the frontal armour of the Sabres. Most of the Sabres supplied to the 1st Armoured Division had been the latest Sabre Mk 3, which had 50mm of glacis protection. While there were still some of the older Mark 2, this still had 40mm of protection. The 37mm gun fitted to the Pz III couldn't penetrate either tank even at close range. In the natural confusion of a mobile tank battle, some of the panzers managed to get shots at the side armour of the British tanks, but even there they had to be within 400 yards to have a chance. The British were in a much happier situation - the HV3pdr the Sabre tanks were equipped with could penetrate even the frontal armour of the Pz III at 1,500 yards (if they could get a hit, which was actually quite difficult). The preferred firing range for the British was around 1,000 yards, where they started to get a reasonable chance of a hit, and at this range the Panzers were highly vulnerable. While the experienced crews made it as difficult as possible for the British, evasion could only do so much, especially while trying to kill the British tanks. The Pz IV tanks were in a slightly better situation, but not much. Their low-velocity 75mm gun again could only penetrate frontal armour at point blank range, although the size of the shell could put a Sabre out of action with the shock damage caused.

After a somewhat confused action over the course of fifteen minutes, ten of the twenty-five Pz III and two Pz IV tanks had been destroyed. This was a serious blow to the division, who could only muster some sixty-nine of these tanks. A fifth of the division's strength in medium tanks had been wrecked in a quarter of an hour. The commanding officer ordered the panzers to withdraw back down the road, and radioed back his intention to draw the British tanks onto his anti-tank guns. The panzer troops hadn't yet realised how little damage the 37mm guns were doing - while the British had lost four tanks, this was to damage to the suspension (which was vulnerable to the gun), and no tanks had actually been destroyed.

The 1AB tanks followed up, their infantry mounting their carriers to follow up in support. While the retreat of the panzers was welcome, these were in the main experienced pre-war crews, and they were aware that drawing tanks onto the divisions guns was a tactic they employed as well. Still, they found that they could nearly keep pace with the retreat even having to pause and fire, although some of the old hands rather missed the old fire-while-moving tactics, they might have been better suited to this job. Still, they managed to kill one more Pz III and disable another as they caught up with the main body of 5th Panzer.

The Panzer troops were very good at concealing themselves, and they allowed their tanks to fall back through them before opening fire. This was a very effective tactic, but it was at this point that the inability of the 37mm gun to stop a Sabre became obvious. Only one tank was disabled before the others started to fire on the anti-tank guns. It was lucky for the infantry that even with its HE round, the 3pdr wasn't a very good HE-thrower. While the explosions certainly worried the German gunners, and a few guns and their crews were destroyed, the bulk of them escaped without too much trouble. The infantry 37mm was easily manhandled, and the Panzer troops had made good use of terrain and cover when setting up, allowing them to move back into dead ground. Things were a bit more uncomfortable for the infantry, some of whom suffered badly as the tanks employed their machine guns to good effect.

Dealing so easily with the ambush had made the 1AB tanks perhaps rather overconfident, as they carried on advancing through the remaining infantry only to find the next anti-tank screen consisting of 88mm guns. The first sign of trouble was two of the Sabre tanks brewing up, and with no obvious close targets, the rest of the force drew back and attempted to find cover, with reasonable success, although one more tank was killed and another immobilised.

The Brigades infantry was following in close support, and when informed of the anti-tank guns started to dismount and move forward, intending to mount a classic infantry assault on the guns. This was slowed by the need to deal with the Panzer infantry - while some of them had scattered when they had seen their guns couldn't stop the advancing Sabres, many had remained, and the dismounted British infantry had to deal with them, a fierce fight ensuing as the German troops tried to keep the British away from their guns. In order to regain the initiative, the tanks called in their artillery. This was rather further forward than the Germans might have expected - one of the advantages of pulling the enemy to your screen was that often they outdistanced their artillery support. But 1AB had self-propelled Birch guns, and these had been advancing slowly behind the main body.

Ten minutes later, 25pd shells began falling among the 88mm guns, and as soon as they had the range, with devastating effect. The tanks waited for the guns to cease firing as their crews hugged the earth in the hope of cover, then advanced at full speed. The combination of artillery shells and the tank machine guns soon dealt with the problem, and they were moving forward once more.



General von Hartlieb was a worried man. So far nothing of this attack had gone as expected, the British tanks seemed to be their equivalent of the Char B, and their infantry and artillery support was coming up far faster than had been expected. Still, this was only part of his plan, what was needed now was to get things under control and allow the flanking attacks to go in. With any luck, the fast advance of this tank force would allow the lighter tanks to take them in the rear. In the mean time, he would fall back, instructing the divisions rear echelon to retreat back to clear the road. If his normal Luftwaffe support had been available, things would all have been much easier, but he had to make do with what he had. The flanking forces were ordered to get a move on - if the British tanks were still in contact, by now it should be a straightforward matter to get into their rear.

The northern pincer was soon in trouble of its own. Only one of 1AB's tank regiments had been advancing forward, the second was covering the northern approach. This time they were supported by their infantry, and the first the advancing panzers knew of the concealed anti-tank guns was when two of the Pz II tanks brewed up. Assuming this was an anti-tank screen, the commander attempted to call in his own artillery, only to find they were already engaged. The delay had allowed the waiting British tanks to get a better idea of the threat, and realising it was mainly light tanks, advanced from their hull-down positions. While the RTR lost five tanks, two brewed up by Panzer III's working around to their more vulnerable sides, the Germans lost twenty Pz II's and six Pz III before making a somewhat precipitous retreat. The Pz I light tanks had attempted to close on the infantry to get among them with their machine guns, only to find that they were well supplied with 2 and 3 pdr guns, as well as Boys rifles. While some infantry became casualties, fifteen of the light tanks were put out of action.



The report of what had happened to his northern pincer was the last straw for von Hartlieb. He had assumed he was fighting an armoured formation in front of him, but it was now obvious that the British were present in far more force that he had estimated. Deciding to cut his losses, he ordered the 88mm guns and some of his medium tanks to cover his retreat back down the road. He intended to have his infantry dig in near Florennes, while his armour regrouped ready to support them. This mainly worked. 1AB lost a number of tanks to the heavy AA guns, as well as to ambushes by the panzers, but they inflicted heavy losses themselves. By the time they started to follow east, the 5th Panzer Division had lost its 88mm guns as well as a significant number of its medium tanks. 1AB paused for a short while to regroup while Evans tried to decide if a full chase was a good idea. Obviously keeping the pressure on 5th Panzer would do even more damage to them, but he was worried about the Luftwaffe - while mainly absent today, this could change at any time - and concerned about getting too far ahead of the defence line General Giraud was hoping to form. There was also the worry that there were reports of another panzer force not that far south of him, and getting trapped between the two would be bad.

1AB was ordered to hold its position north of Phillipeville, while the Scammels got busy recovering the damaged tanks. Losses for the Brigade had been far lighter than expected, the German 37mm had been far less effective than had been planned for. The heavy 88mm guns had been an unpleasant surprise, but the artillery and infantry had dealt with them. Eight Sabres had been destroyed, and another twenty put out of action or suffered mechanical failures, but it was expect that all but two could be repaired over the next few days, and three that had suffered broken tracks would be fixed shortly. The cavalry was to stay between them and the retreating panzers; if circumstances allowed, Evans intended to pursue them again, and he didn't want them consolidating with other armoured forces. It was still only early evening, and he really wanted to locate that other Panzer Division he'd been getting fragmentary reports about.

5th Panzer had far heavier losses. 28 Pz I, 32 Pz II, over 30 Pz III and fifteen of the Pz IV. The AA regiment had been effectively wiped out, and the morale of the supporting infantry had been badly shaken by the ineffectiveness of their 37mm guns. Fortunately the British had not followed up as aggressively as they would have done themselves, and so they had been able to regroup around Florennes, but the division would not be ready for a further advance for at least a day. They had also suffered some losses in the rear echelon, mainly to the British Artillery, but given the panzer losses the level of support was still acceptable. The biggest problem was that due to the British armour following up, none of their damage tanks would be recoverable.

{ 1st AD is still in pretty good shape. Including tanks having to be sent back to be fixed, they have lost 25 Sabres, that's about half a regiment - serious, but certainly not crippling. They also lost some infantry and carriers, but again not serious from the pov of the divisions combat ability.

5th Panzer came off a lot worse. They lost around 40% of their Pz I, 30% of their Pz II, and more importantly 2/3 of their Pz III and Pz IV. They also lost their organic 88mm support. While their commander is optimistic, they aren't in shape to do much any time soon.}
 
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