WI: Tékumel reaches worldwide fame while The Lord of the Rings fades into obscurity?

  • Thread starter Deleted member 123260
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I've never read Eddings but I know what series he wrote. What is the criticism of them?

They’re very well written, I enjoyed reading them, but they’re also full of bad cliches and bad archetypes, every country have a cultural archetype and everyone in the country follow it. He also have a tendency to make his series follow the same pattern. The part where he’s strongest, is when he leave that behind and goes with his own ideas.

I think he’s worth reading, but at same time, I can his (rather their as his wife was his co-author) weaknesses.
 

Deleted member 123260

“These are the trends we see in modern fiction reviews/criticism. Based on these trends I stipulate that, unless the POD somehow alters them, the author and his works will be viewed negatively” = “Politics!”

But also...

“Let’s speculate on how a fantasy book series can somehow impact U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East” = “Not Politics?”

:noexpression:
????

What I'm trying to say is that you seem like you have an agenda by posting threads to one contemporary event and another politically charged thread.

And discussing hypothetical political scenarios is not current politics. Current politics is not allowed on non-Off Topic forums.

I don’t have hard numbers to quote here but I’ve been told the most popular genre of fiction in the modern Arab world is spy fiction. We can probably endlessly speculate on the factors that contribute to this... but even assuming that we can nail down why one type of fiction beats another type in a given cultural region why would these same factors not be present in the ATL?

I don't know how this necessarily means that fantasy can't also be popular especially if it caters to that specific culture and if that media is made available in their native language (which is the primary issue with fantasy in the Arab world; a lack of translations).

And that's not to say that spy fiction (assuming you're correct) and fantasy can't both be popular.

2) Assuming that if fantasy fiction catches on in the Middle East, you conclude it would be “Islamic/Arabic/Persian” themed fantasy

I never assumed that. I assumed that Tekumel would be popular in the Middle East.

The rest of that point just points to stuff in OTL when the fundamental basis of fantasy in this ATL would be changed. GoT won't exist in ATL.

And accusations of racism have nothing to do with popularity in another region.

3) Assuming fantasy fiction catches on in the Arab world AND that there will be hunger for “Islamic/Arabic/Persian” themed fantasy series... you conclude that the Middle Easterners will flock to the works of some American guy

Considering the amount of Muslims, including people in my own family, who post Facebook post after Facebook post about Muslims who invented new tech or did amazing things who were American or European. Or the thousands of stories shared on WhatsApp about Muslim converts. In fact, while I don't have the data, Muslim converts are looked at more positively by Muslims by all sects than actual native Muslims.

My point about popularity in the region is just a suggestion and is based on my own personal experiences as an Arab. You can disagree if you want.

My post was in response to that, saying he would most likely be accused of these things regardless.

I unfortunately did not complete my post so I edited it to finish it. I apologize for any inconvenience.
 

Deleted member 123260

Honestly if people really want to see how Middle Eastern style popular fantasy, I suggest they should rewatch Disney’s Aladdin and the sequels and series connected to it. While American authors may not be expects of European medieval, they have at least sucked a lot up through popular osmosis, while knowledge of the Middle East historical culture are pretty much to a 1001 Nights and a general mix of cliches. European authors would be better. For every Barker there would be a 10 David Eddings, talented writers but lacking the knowledge to show respect to the culture in question, and because they very well could be better writers, they could very well end up dominating the genre.

I think comparing Barker and Eddings is unfair. They're two different writers.
 
I think comparing Barker and Eddings is unfair. They're two different writers.

Yes but that my point Eddings was a very talented author, but he didn’t have any deep understanding of history and cultures, and he would be writing based on his limited knowledge of Middle Eastern cultures and history. I didn’t choose a very bad writer to compare Barker to.
 

Deleted member 123260

Yes but that my point Eddings was a very talented author, but he didn’t have any deep understanding of history and cultures, and he would be writing based on his limited knowledge of Middle Eastern cultures and history. I didn’t choose a very bad writer to compare Barker to.

Wait I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Are you saying that Eddings would be more popular?
 
Wait I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Are you saying that Eddings would be more popular?

I’m saying that if Middle Eastern style fantasy became popular in the West, most writers of the genre wouldn’t be Barker, but instead they would be Eddings.
 

Deleted member 123260

I’m saying that if Middle Eastern style fantasy became popular in the West, most writers of the genre wouldn’t be Barker, but instead they would be Eddings.

I disagree. The core reason that Barker would be popular is that he would replace Tolkien as the king and introducer of worldbuilding. Furthermore, since he has a tabletop rpg game (one of the earliest I may add) he could replace D&D and thus become the superstar of media as a whole. He just wasn't at the right place nor at the right time. This can be changed with a few butterflies.

I don't really like this take because it implies Westerners have to be ignorant of other cultures or that they're incapable of understanding other cultures. I find this view patronizing.
 

marathag

Banned
He just wasn't at the right place
U of M was a day trip to the Gencons that were all wargaming from 1969 in Lake Geneva, organized by Gygax at first for their wargames, like Tractics, WWII and Modern Combat in Miniatures

While the group around me didn't have a real source for GHQ 1:285 minis, local shops had plenty of the soft Airfix figures and 1:76 Armor, and increase to rules to match, and played on two ping pong tables pushed together, covered in tan or green cloth to do games of Tractics.

Anyway,Barker was in the Right Place, and the Right Time, He just didn't deal properly with Gygax, as in looking behind his smile, and expect to get screwed over without an ironclad contract.

Being at the early Gencons would get you in contact with all the small game companies, such as they were in the early '70s, along with all the gamers looking for new games
 
It's interesting how I heard about M.A.R. Barker from his linguistics research first (he's a great resource on the Klamath language) and only later heard about Tékumel from a linked post in a thread here (in the Lands of Red and Gold thread). He was associated with contemporary linguists like Victor Golla, a notable scholar on indigenous Californian languages. If Barker and Tolkien are reversed, I'd imagine many interested in Germanic legend, language, or culture would know of Tolkien from his works in that field. Tolkien would be like the Brothers Grimm--LOTR would be his legacy, but he'd just as much be remembered for his Germanic philology.

Considering that the first Tékumel book came out in '85, the popularity of this fictional universe would co-incide with the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, and the Western idolisation of the Islamic resistance fighters. If the books really hit the public mind-set at just the right time, this could be enough to actually influence foreign policy after the Cold War. Shortly after the Cold War, Bin Laden was regarded as a hero in the American press. If relations are better... that could butterfly quite a few things. The '90s as a period of Islamophilia in the West, with funding for Islamic insurgents opposing dictators being quite popular? Anti-Americanism among Islamists ameliorated and in some cases outright prevented? 9/11 completely prevented? No War on Terror?
Red Dawn was basically Hollywood's take on the Soviet War in Afghanistan and reading between the lines was very much trying to promote the Afghan struggle to American audiences (look how the heroes pose in the movie). But I don't think John Milius managed to influence foreign policy much with that movie despite its fame.

See Magi the labiryth of magic for a japanese example too
I suppose TTL might have Record of Lodoss War be instead more like Tékumel instead of D&D. But speaking of Japanese fantasy, I wonder if Yoshiki Tanaka, best known for Legend of Galactic Heroes, writes Arslan Senki (aka Heroic Legend of Arslan) earlier or otherwise those books are more popular in ATL Japan and Arslan Senki gets the lengthy anime adaption and the cult fame in both Japan and the West instead of LOGH (which would have the My Conquest is the Sea of Stars movie and maybe an OVA of the first arc or so). So TTL might have a lengthy late 80s/90s adaption of Arslan Senki perhaps done like the OTL OVA version and with the same fantastic cast. I'd imagine the OVA would have some divergences from the novels and some filler arcs which might still be received favourably, especially amongst Western fans if we imagine the quality is good enough to attract the same cult fanbase as LOGH.

I guess that means the TV version of Arslan Senki from the 10s TTL would be like the 10s TV remake of LOGH. Personally, I like both versions of Heroic Legend of Arslan since the remake is cheesy fun and is almost like an anime version of the Peter Jackson Lord of the Rings trilogy, although perhaps TTL it's more unfavourably compared to the original like the LOGH remake OTL and like said remake is often considered totally redundant to the original. Which would be too bad since I love the remake's take on Silver Mask and Marzban Daryun, although maybe TTL's remake isn't as good, and TTL's LOGH TV remake competes well with the original OVAs.

Aside from that (and perhaps most importantly), TTL's Final Fantasy would have more of a Middle Eastern theme since the first Final Fantasy was very inspired by D&D. Although perhaps the most important thing would be whatever happens with TTL's equivalent of Wizardry since that early RPG was hugely popular in Japan (far more than in its homeland the US) and the godfather of all JRPGs.
I don't really like this take because it implies Westerners have to be ignorant of other cultures or that they're incapable of understanding other cultures. I find this view patronizing.
You only have to look at popular culture OTL to see generic Hollywood takes on all sorts of non-Western cultures. Hell, a lot of fantasy in general is that sort of Hollywood take on European culture via osmosis from Tolkien.
 
Aside from that (and perhaps most importantly), TTL's Final Fantasy would have more of a Middle Eastern theme since the first Final Fantasy was very inspired by D&D
Etto, the original FF was almost a piece to piece ultima clone, just a different battle system...but of course Ultima was inspired by D&D...so depending how Ultima ended up being...that will affect FF. Even them, FF2 was heavily Persian Inspirated, with the wild rose code phrase(a persian concept of wild rose),Minyu being a turban magician and etc
 
That's hard to say, as I said before Barker himself is probably the only person who could properly GM a game but I believe it could given the right person to do it...

And yet, people still do. Heck, Barker spent a lot of time arguing against the idea that only he could run Tékumel: even in the first published Empire of the Petal Throne book he was arguing against that claim.

If Tékumel hits at just the right time, even the difficulties (cultural and linguistic) could be surmounted. The Tsolyani language he devised could be there like Sindarin or Klingon in the geek pantheon.

I could easily see a cartoon or two being done a la Bakshi’s Lord of the Rings cartoons, along with a toy line of action figures and the like.
 

marathag

Banned
I could easily see a cartoon or two being done a la Bakshi’s Lord of the Rings cartoons, along with a toy line of action figures and the like.
With most of the Women having exposed breasts?

Moral Majority would have a stroke.
But the'70s would be the time to do it, when even a G rated film could slip in some nudity (_Andromeda Strain_, for the curious)
 

xsampa

Banned
Note that the Mitlanyál are polytheistic and bussán/language don't correspond to good/evil. Hrü'ü is, Vimulha sacrifices people,
 
With most of the Women having exposed breasts?

Moral Majority would have a stroke.
But the'70s would be the time to do it, when even a G rated film could slip in some nudity (_Andromeda Strain_, for the curious)

Oh yes, lots of nudity along with polygamy (both men and women with multiple spouses), a goddess whose worshipers show their faith with sex acts, necromancy and many other things to make those in charge squeamish...
 
I guess I would say that some aspects seems a bit unlikely - the D&D we have in Our Time Line *was* influenced by LotR, but it was really a mash up of medieval wargaming fans with a huge body of "pulp" fantasy and adventure stories (Leiber, Howard, Dunsany, Anderson and all that, and then the second wave "pulp" like Moorcock) that you don't really avert by averting LotR. LotR was just really one stream in the river that led to D&D, less than a phenomenon which was absolutely necessary for the form of "fantasy" (by averting the stream you probably don't avert something like the river!).

I think a world with a stronger Tekumel influence and presence and a weaker LotR presence would be interesting and probably more creatively open to "weird" fantasy, but I think you'd see Tekumel far less likely to have as primary an influence over whatever fantasy traditions emerged as LotR in OTL (which I believe can be overstated anyway!), simply because it is quite original and distinct from much of "the wider tradition". Part of the lesson of it is to make up your own stuff rather than go back to the same source, after all - Tolkein is really trying to build a new form of mythic national saga by building on images which are already quite compatible with a lot of what is about at the time, and I'm not sure Barker is. Also LotR, whose influence over D&D fantasy can be overrated, was very compatible with lots of authors mashing it up lots of other influences, like Arthurian romance directly, Gothic literature, sagas, etc - it's not really so hard to have an elf or dwarf drop by without changing the tone too much (weird "fantasy" aliens, less so)...
 
With most of the Women having exposed breasts?

Moral Majority would have a stroke.
But the'70s would be the time to do it, when even a G rated film could slip in some nudity (_Andromeda Strain_, for the curious)

I figured bowdlerization would go hand in hand with whitewashing if it broke into a “mainstream” setup.
 

Deleted member 114175

In a more Tékumel-influenced fantasy genre, what would the alternate version of Warhammer 40K look like?

edit: and Warhammer Fantasy
 
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marathag

Banned
In a more Tékumel-influenced fantasy genre, what would the alternate version of Warhammer 40K look like?
When 40k first started it was a mash of everything that was popular in sci-fi.
Beyond Space Elves and Space Dwarves, the Orks did turn into pretty original. Back in the day, it was passed around that Games Workshop games made by drunken Englishmen, for other drunken Englishmen. Very early 40k took more from _Heavy Metal_ magazine, it was dark,than just Fantasy D&D races in a Sci-Fi setting,There's a reason Grimdark was defined by _Rogue Trader_ and the two Realm of Chaos books
 
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