WI: Tékumel reaches worldwide fame while The Lord of the Rings fades into obscurity?

[Deleted member 123260]

For those unaware, Tékumel is a fantasy world created by M. A. R. Barker over the course of several decades from around 1940 during the same timespan as Tolkien's Middle Earth. Tékumel, in contrast to the Lord of the Rings, takes most of it's inspiration from Middle Eastern, Persian, Indian, and Mayan cultures and mythology. Furthermore, it has science fiction elements concurrently with fantasy elements; Tékumel itself is set in a distant planet. M. A. R. Barker made The Empire of the Petal Throne, one of the earliest tabletop role-playing games ever made (I believe it was made during the same time as Dungeons and Dragons) and wrote several books set in his world however Tékumel remained in obscurity.

However, what if the opposite happened? What if The Lord of the Rings and Tékumel switched places? What if Tékumel was just as popular and influential as The Lord of the Rings is today?

The first major effect, in my opinion, is that the Empire of the Petal Throne takes Dungeon and Dragon's place in the tabletop realm. In essence, it becomes the tabletop game that everyone knows and derives their source material from. Speaking of derivatives, the second major effect is that every other fantasy art, game, story, or media is going to derive it's races and setting from Tékumel. There is no denying that. The third major effect is that this means one of the most popular fantasy worlds out there in the West and around the world is based on Middle Eastern, Persian, Indian, and Mayan culture; we can probably expect Arabophilia or Persophilia in the same way people obsess over Japanese stuff. Given that M. A. R. Barker was a professor of Urdu and South Asian Studies, converted to Islam, and taught at the Institute of Islamic Studies at McGill University, I don't think he'd mischaracterize or orientalize these cultures either so I expect Tékumel to be rather popular in the Middle East as well.

That's all I can think of so far, what are your thoughts on the effects this change would have?

Paging @Skallagrim cuz he's a pop culture buff.

 

[marathag]

Heh, had just mentioned this in the 'No Dungeons and Dragons' Thread

 

[Thon Taddeo]

IIRC LOTR met a lukewarm reception after it was published. It wasn't until some pirated editions appeared in America in the 1960s that its popularity exploded. So if those pirated editions never appeared, then LOTR might never be as dominant in the fantasy, though fans of the genre would still likely know about it and read it.

 

[Skallagrim]

I would argue that a POD of simply making The Lord of the Rings less of a success may well suffice. There was clearly an interest in in-depth, detailed and immersive fictional worlds... but such a thing does have to hit the market at the right time, after all. You can just 'miss your opportunity' due to random bad luck. There would be other such efforts, some of them highly successful, but most of those more obviously sci-fi. The obvious example is Dune, but the evident source of inspiration for Barker was Jack Vance's Planet of Adventure. We know for a fact that Barker was involved in fanzines that published and discussed some of Vance's stuff, and that he was really into it. (One of those fanzines was called Sinisterra, and the world of Tékumel is said to revolve around Nu Ophiuchi-- also called Sinistra.)

I'd say that if LotR remains a more of a fringe work, then Tékumel can be the masterpiece that 'bridges' the tradition of immersive world-building, from sci-fi to fantasy. Interestingly, the particular resemblances between Barker's approach and Tolkien's (their scholarly diligence, their extensive knowledge and use of linguistics, their love for and fascination with cultural traditions) might actually lead to a re-discovery of (and "second look at") Tolkien's work. In this ATL, Tolkien might be called "the forgotten Barker"! People would probably note that Tolkien created a setting and story based purely on a European basis, some time before Barker did the same using other cultures as his basis.

The fact that Barker was more successful (as were Frank Herbert and Jack Vance, who both used lots of non-European influences as well) could have some interesting implications for the cultural mind-set. It could easily be concluded that Tolkien was a great, great writer... but that using exclusively European sources is just too limited and parochial to have truly universal appeal. instead of OTL's deeply unfortunate (and certainly unintended by Tolkien!) meme of "endless mediaeval Europe clones" in fantasy, we might see it as conventional wisdom that any fictional world that wants to be widely successful simply has to be more diverse in its cultural backdrop.

I suspect that Islamic culture in particular would be very popular, because both Barker and Frank Herbert used elements of it very extensively. Also because it is highly diverse (covering a vast part of the earth, including many local cultures); and finally because both writers and audiences in the West are at least passingly familiar with some of the beautiful tales that have been produced in the Islamic world-- tales that can form an inspiration for very interesting books!

 

[Deleted member 123260]

@Skallagrim

I disagree only on this note.

instead of OTL's deeply unfortunate (and certainly unintended by Tolkien!) meme of "endless mediaeval Europe clones" in fantasy, we might see it as conventional wisdom that any fictional world that wants to be widely successful simply has to be more diverse in its cultural backdrop.

Given that Tolkien himself did not intend to spawn the endless medieval European clones" in fantasy, I don't think Barker would either but he'll spawn endless Tekumel or (medieval scifi Islamic world) clones regardless. Given how popular it would be and how capitalism works, fantasy would be more or less in the same situation especially gaming since The Empire of the Petal Throne will inform RPGs to come.

Of course, in this TL, you will see some brave lads who will try making something totally different and take from a different culture. Maybe that culture will the often overlooked medieval European mythology and draw inspiration from that. They won't look into Lord of the Rings as that would be too obscure; instead they'll research Western European mythology and take from that and then use that as a module or realm within the Tekumel universe.

But aside from that, what effect would this have on politics or foreign policy? For example, the typical "Crusader" and "Deus Vult" memes that right wing groups have appropriated probably won't exist because they themselves are an outgrowth of the prominence of fiction set in Medieval Europe which itself stemmed from a fascination of Medieval Europe that followed the success of The Lord of the Rings. Instead, we may see the Islamic world be given a far more sympathetic characterization and one that many states within that area would take advantage of politically both for tourism and other means.

What do you think could happen politically from such a change?

 

[Zheng He]

One thing about Tolkien though is let's not hang too much on it being straight out of medieval Europe. His works drew very heavily from Norse mythology and even other myths as well - for example, the whole tale of the rise and fall of Numenor was nothing more than Tolkien's spin on the Atlantis myth.

If Tolkien is obscure, and people want more Euro-centric fantasy, do we see a greater emphasis on the Arthurian tales (there is certainly plenty of material there) and plenty has already been done with that anyhow?

 

[Deleted member 123260]

If Tolkien is obscure, and people want more Euro-centric fantasy, do we see a greater emphasis on the Arthurian tales (there is certainly plenty of material there) and plenty has already been done with that anyhow?

I'm not entirely sure but I can imagine people also looking into European beasts and creatures because Tekumel has races and since Tekumel is the standard for fantasy everything will follow it's example. You'll probably get elves since they'd either be the most unique or boring aspect of European mythology (in this TL, someone might ask "why did they had a reskin of humans but with pointy ears? that's so boring!" or "wow they added an actual human-like race to the game!") and dwarfs and orcs as well.

 

[Skallagrim]

Given that Tolkien himself did not intend to spawn the endless medieval European clones" in fantasy, I don't think Barker would either but he'll spawn endless Tekumel or (medieval scifi Islamic world clones) regardless. Given how popular it would be and how capitalism works, fantasy would be more or less in the same situation especially gaming since The Empire of the Petal Throne will inform RPGs to come.

I'm not entirely sure; there is something to be said for the idea that tapping into various cultures in multiple foundational works could turn that into the standard. I think that the modern fantasy landscape would be less mono-cultural from the outset, although the prominence of Islamic culture would probably make that the big "winner" here, compared to OTL. The major thing, though, would be a difference in prevailing mind-set: instead of the "European stand-by" of OTL, prominent works would feature non-European-derived settings and cultures, thus inpriring other authors to follow that example. One might hope that this would lead to a situation where it's normal to explore various in-universe cultures with equal intensity and depth-- instead of (as in OTL, sadly) just exploring the Europe expy in depth, and featuring other cultures as "exotic" window-dressing...

Of course, in this TL, you will see some brave lads who will try making something totally different and take from a different culture. Maybe that culture will the often overlooked medieval European mythology and draw inspiration from that. They won't look into Lord of the Rings as that would be too obscure; instead they'll research Western European mythology and take from that and then use that as a module or realm within the Tekumel universe.

One thing about Tolkien though is let's not hang too much on it being straight out of medieval Europe. His works drew very heavily from Norse mythology and even other myths as well - for example, the whole tale of the rise and fall of Numenor was nothing more than Tolkien's spin on the Atlantis myth.

If Tolkien is obscure, and people want more Euro-centric fantasy, do we see a greater emphasis on the Arthurian tales (there is certainly plenty of material there) and plenty has already been done with that anyhow?

There could be vast differences compared to OTL, based purely on which works make it big. There are a lot of overlooked Eastern European fantasy and sci-fi writers in the OL 20th century. So Arthurian mythology is certainly a good contender, but I could see a great epic based on Slavic mythology having a big break-though in this ATL. That could then result in a lot of figures from that background becoming staples of the fantasy genre. (That's just one hypothetical, but it's one I like.)

But aside from that, what effect would this have on politics or foreign policy? For example, the typical "Crusader" and "Deus Vult" memes that right wing groups have appropriated probably won't exist because they themselves are an outgrowth of the prominence of fiction set in Medieval Europe which itself stemmed from a fascination of Medieval Europe that followed the success of The Lord of the Rings. Instead, we may see the Islamic world be given a far more sympathetic characterization and one that many states within that area would take advantage of politically both for tourism and other means.

What do you think could happen politically from such a change?

Considering that the first Tékumel book came out in '85, the popularity of this fictional universe would co-incide with the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, and the Western idolisation of the Islamic resistance fighters. If the books really hit the public mind-set at just the right time, this could be enough to actually influence foreign policy after the Cold War. Shortly after the Cold War, Bin Laden was regarded as a hero in the American press. If relations are better... that could butterfly quite a few things. The '90s as a period of Islamophilia in the West, with funding for Islamic insurgents opposing dictators being quite popular? Anti-Americanism among Islamists ameliorated and in some cases outright prevented? 9/11 completely prevented? No War on Terror?

One book in itself rarely changes that much in the world, but if the book is really popular, and if it sets the tone for a lot of "clones" that use the same positive depiction of Islam(-derived culture)... then you could see a snow-ball effect.

 

[Nivek]

I've never hear Tekumel at all till today.

 

[eltf177]

I've never hear Tekumel at all till today.

No real shock, it's a bit of a fringe item. I have just about every edition and all five novels (only read the first two). It's very interesting but difficult to follow at times. It was often said that Barker was probably the only person on the planet who could really be a GM, and I can believe that. To this date I have yet to play a single game, but I do enjoy having the material. And it does have a fair number of followers.

The first two novels (MAN OF GOLD and FLAMESONG) are excellent but you really have to be familiar with the game's background to truly understand what's going on. I really need to put the last three novels on the fast-track.

 

[Deleted member 123260]

Considering that the first Tékumel book came out in '85, the popularity of this fictional universe would co-incide with the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, and the Western idolisation of the Islamic resistance fighters. If the books really hit the public mind-set at just the right time, this could be enough to actually influence foreign policy after the Cold War. Shortly after the Cold War, Bin Laden was regarded as a hero in the American press. If relations are better... that could butterfly quite a few things. The '90s as a period of Islamophilia in the West, with funding for Islamic insurgents opposing dictators being quite popular? Anti-Americanism among Islamists ameliorated and in some cases outright prevented? 9/11 completely prevented? No War on Terror?

Possibly, if Islamophilia is high enough, this could lead to the US supporting stability and good economic development in the Middle East. Maybe they may do the same thing they did with Japan and make a policy of completely raising the economic status of the Islamic world to that of a first world country. Following the obvious economic boom (which, in this TL, may be in the 2000s to 2010s!), you'd get the Islamic world producing it's own domestic fiction and media which may increase Islamophilia as a result. If the Islamic world creates it's "anime" (a form of media so popular and globally significant that it's wanted by everyone around the globe) it could probably result in a much more culturally affluent Islamic world.

 

[The Militant Doberman]

Given that M. A. R. Barker was a professor of Urdu and South Asian Studies, converted to Islam, and taught at the Institute of Islamic Studies at McGill University, I don't think he'd mischaracterize or orientalize these cultures either so I expect Tékumel

LOL.

OTL we have had the usual suspects decry Cyberpunk 2077 as racist and anti-black with the setting’s creator having to come out & essentially say “I’m a black persons, I created this fictional universe — who the f*$& do YOU think you are to tell ME whether or not MY creation was done right or not?”
Indeed, this seems to be a worrying trend in modern fiction “criticism”.

Unless the POD somehow significantly alters the path of liberal arts development I expect M. A. R. Barker will get accused of all sorts of “-isms” no matter how many degrees he holds

 

[Deleted member 123260]

LOL.

OTL we have had the usual suspects decry Cyberpunk 2077 as racist and anti-black with the setting’s creator having to come out & essentially say “I’m a black persons, I created this fictional universe — who the f*$& do YOU think you are to tell ME whether or not MY creation was done right or not?”
Indeed, this seems to be a worrying trend in modern fiction “criticism”.

Unless the POD somehow significantly alters the path of liberal arts development I expect M. A. R. Barker will get accused of all sorts of “-isms” no matter how many degrees he holds

Oof, let's leave politics out of this. I've read the thread your post is on and I have to say, I'm not entirely convinced about your point.

For starters, I'm not referring to the reception of Tekumel as a work but the content of the fiction itself. I expect Tekumel to not be a typical fantasy romanticization of the Arab world and what not since the author would be doing his research.

From this I came to the conclusion that Tekumel would be highly popular in the Middle East and Islamic world.

Your post is irrelevant to this point.

 

[marathag]

His work is pretty original for worldbuilding, everyone should check it out

 

[Jürgen]

Modern generic fantasy doesn’t come from Tolkien but from DnD, it was only with DnD that the genre norms became so dominant, DnD was original much more Conan style Sword and Sorcery, but it began heavy to lend from Tolkien, because his fiction lend itself to the quest style fantasy and mixed itself well with Conan-style post collapse societies. It was not really his world building DnD creators fell in love with, but his story telling. The adoption of his world building elements just followed that. So the question is, do Tekumel offer the same freedom for a quest-driven murder hobo adventure?

 

[eltf177]

His work is pretty original for worldbuilding, everyone should check it out

Definitely!

[snip]So the question is, do[es] Tekumel offer the same freedom for a quest-driven murder hobo adventures.

That's hard to say, as I said before Barker himself is probably the only person who could properly GM a game but I believe it could given the right person to do it...

 

[The Militant Doberman]

Oof, let's leave politics out of this.

“These are the trends we see in modern fiction reviews/criticism. Based on these trends I stipulate that, unless the POD somehow alters them, the author and his works will be viewed negatively” = “Politics!”

But also...

“Let’s speculate on how a fantasy book series can somehow impact U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East” = “Not Politics?”


????

For starters, I'm not referring to the reception of Tekumel as a work but the content of the fiction itself. I expect Tekumel to not be a typical fantasy romanticization of the Arab world and what not since the author would be doing his research.

From this I came to the conclusion that Tekumel would be highly popular in the Middle East and Islamic world.

Even if we assume the 1st statement is true the 2nd one doesn’t necessarily follow.

1) Assuming fantasy fiction would catch on in the “Middle East and Islamic world” in the ATL

I don’t have hard numbers to quote here but I’ve been told the most popular genre of fiction in the modern Arab world is spy fiction. We can probably endlessly speculate on the factors that contribute to this... but even assuming that we can nail down why one type of fiction beats another type in a given cultural region why would these same factors not be present in the ATL?

2) Assuming that if fantasy fiction catches on in the Middle East, you conclude it would be “Islamic/Arabic/Persian” themed fantasy

Despite access to Arabic movies/TV shows, the growing popularity of Bollywood in the region (itself apparently edging out “native” Arab boob-tube entertainment in some regards) and presumably presence of works from China/Latin America/Eastern Europe/etc... it’s mentioned that the US-made and Medieval-Europe-themed The Game of Thrones is “widely popular” in Syria (ironically, I recall talk of GoT being “offensive” towards people of colour )

3) Assuming fantasy fiction catches on in the Arab world AND that there will be hunger for “Islamic/Arabic/Persian” themed fantasy series... you conclude that the Middle Easterners will flock to the works of some American guy

This point is probably best illustrated with an example: there is a sci-fi novel out there called Belarus; it was written back in 2000 by an American author and the cover mentions that the book “reads like a Russian fairy tale set in space.”

But as one of the novel’s online reviewers mentions something along the lines of “you know, if I wanted to read Russian fairy tales... I’d go read actual Russian fairy tales instead of some American’s interpretation.”

(As an aside, I’ve read the novel myself and find that while its an enjoyable space-opera the supposed “Russian-ness” was just window dressing and the plot wouldn’t be impacted if you swapped out the Slavic names/terms for Anglo-Saxon ones)

Your post is irrelevant to this point.

You said:

Given that M. A. R. Barker was a professor of Urdu and South Asian Studies, converted to Islam, and taught at the Institute of Islamic Studies at McGill University, I don't think he'd mischaracterize or orientalize these cultures

My post was in response to that, saying he would most likely be accused of these things regardless.

 

[Jürgen]

Honestly if people really want to see how Middle Eastern style popular fantasy, I suggest they should rewatch Disney’s Aladdin and the sequels and series connected to it. While American authors may not be expects of European medieval, they have at least sucked a lot up through popular osmosis, while knowledge of the Middle East historical culture are pretty much to a 1001 Nights and a general mix of cliches. European authors would be better. For every Barker there would be a 10 David Eddings, talented writers but lacking the knowledge to show respect to the culture in question, and because they very well could be better writers, they could very well end up dominating the genre.

 

[Nivek]

Honestly if people really want to see how Middle Eastern style popular fantasy, I suggest they should rewatch Disney’s Aladdin and the sequels and series connected to it. While American authors may not be expects of European medieval, they have at least sucked a lot up through popular osmosis, while knowledge of the Middle East historical culture are pretty much to a 1001 Nights and a general mix of cliches. European authors would be better. For every Barker there would be a 10 David Eddings, talented writers but lacking the knowledge to show respect to the culture in question, and because they very well could be better writers, they could very well end up dominating the genre.

See Magi the labiryth of magic for a japanese example too

 

[Zheng He]

Re r see dz d4:-1.4qr daw d TD

Honestly if people really want to see how Middle Eastern style popular fantasy, I suggest they should rewatch Disney’s Aladdin and the sequels and series connected to it. While American authors may not be expects of European medieval, they have at least sucked a lot up through popular osmosis, while knowledge of the Middle East historical culture are pretty much to a 1001 Nights and a general mix of cliches. European authors would be better. For every Barker there would be a 10 David Eddings, talented writers but lacking the knowledge to show respect to the culture in question, and because they very well could be better writers, they could very well end up dominating the genre.

I've never read Eddings but I know what series he wrote. What is the criticism of them?