Realistic British Interplanetary Society Moonship?

[BillKerman1234]

Exactly what it says on the tin. Can a BIS Moonship conduct a manned Lunar landing before July 20th, 1969?

Personally I think it’s possible, but then I am a member of BIS, so I may be a bit biased. For those of you who don’t know exactly what I’m talking about, here are some articles about the BIS Moonship. I would recommend that you read them before replying.

https://www.bis-space.com/what-we-do/projects/bis-lunar-spaceship - Official BIS report on the Moonship
http://www.astronautix.com/b/bislunarlander.html - About the BIS Moonship
https://spacecentre.co.uk/blog-post/the-bis-lunar-spacesuit/ - About the BIS Lunar Space Suit
https://www.bis-space.com/what-we-do/projects/the-lunar-space-suit - Official BIS report on the Lunar Space Suit

Baseline TL would probably have a POD somewhere in the late-thirties, and would probably hinge around the reverse-engineering of downed V2 rockets. Once WWII ends, if Britain can get its hands on some intact V2s and some German scientists, then that will give them a kick-start. Alternatively, you could have some BIS engineer stumble upon reliable liquid rocket tech by accident in the 30s, maybe he was trying to do a one-off test of a large rocket motor and it just worked better than expected? Or a very gradual increase in technology starting with a British equivalent of Robert Goddard making breakthroughs in small-scale liquid rocketry in the 10s?

Also important would be giving Britain an incentive to do it. Early on it would probably be the BIS funding feasibility study’s and maybe testing rocket motors, but once you get to orbital-class rockets your going to need a source of a lot more funding. A team of 20 people might be able to cobble together some captured V2s and launch them, but for going to the Moon your going to need a lot more than that. This was right after WWII, and London in basically in ruins, wether the population wants to acknowledge that or not, so getting the government to release funds will be difficult.

However, that ruined state Britain is in will also mean they are going to want to do something to restore confidence in their ability’s as a nation, and perhaps boast to the other nations about. Also keep in mind that the aircraft production factories are still winding down from working in overdrive for the last few years, and are going to want to find something to do now that the war is over. Building an aircraft is not to different from a ballistic missile, and combined with the fact Britain knows first-hand just how destructive they are it’s not too far fetched that Britain might want some of its own.

I’m imagining that it would probably start in ~1944 with a V2 (or at least the engine section of one, or even just the blueprints) being recovered intact, maybe from a V2 that his London, had its warhead fail, and landed in a soft location. If they can reverse engineer it, (or build one from captured blueprints) then the BIS can probably get V2 level engine tech around 1945, which means once the war ends the BIS will already have enough experience to start flying captured V2s right away. If they can get British built V2s flying by 1948, then they could get something akin to a Juno rocket, with maybe 10kg to orbit capability flying by 1950. Also under development would be Megaroc (see here: https://www.bis-space.com/what-we-do/projects/megaroc - http://www.astronautix.com/m/megaroc.html), which would put the first British astronaut in space by 1949. If they can get a Proton or Saturn C-3 sized rocket built by 1955, then they might make the Moon in 1960.

The only way I can see this working is if they apply the mentality of over-engineering everything. “Why shave of every single gram you can when you could just build a rocket twice as big?” If they don’t worry about high performance engines or cutting mass fractions or fine tuning every last detail and just say “that looks like it might work... okay ship it to the launch site”, then they could have a chance. The upside of this mentality is it’s super cheep, and can use existing aircraft production lines to make hundreds of rockets a month. The downside is that 99 of those 100 rockets will fail, and all of them are going to be over-engineered to the point of being ludicrously huge. Still, it might work.

I’m curious about other people’s thoughts on the matter. For a long time most people have been of the opinion that the BIS Moonship was an “interesting idea, but not really possible”. What do you think?

Could the Union Jack be planted on the Moon in some alternate timeline?

 

[Incasaurus]

Exactly what it says on the tin. Can a BIS Moonship conduct a manned Lunar landing before July 20th, 1969?

Personally I think it’s possible, but then I am a member of BIS, so I may be a bit biased. For those of you who don’t know exactly what I’m talking about, here are some articles about the BIS Moonship. I would recommend that you read them before replying.

https://www.bis-space.com/what-we-do/projects/bis-lunar-spaceship - Official BIS report on the Moonship
http://www.astronautix.com/b/bislunarlander.html - About the BIS Moonship
https://spacecentre.co.uk/blog-post/the-bis-lunar-spacesuit/ - About the BIS Lunar Space Suit
https://www.bis-space.com/what-we-do/projects/the-lunar-space-suit - Official BIS report on the Lunar Space Suit

Baseline TL would probably have a POD somewhere in the late-thirties, and would probably hinge around the reverse-engineering of downed V2 rockets. Once WWII ends, if Britain can get its hands on some intact V2s and some German scientists, then that will give them a kick-start. Alternatively, you could have some BIS engineer stumble upon reliable liquid rocket tech by accident in the 30s, maybe he was trying to do a one-off test of a large rocket motor and it just worked better than expected? Or a very gradual increase in technology starting with a British equivalent of Robert Goddard making breakthroughs in small-scale liquid rocketry in the 10s?

Also important would be giving Britain an incentive to do it. Early on it would probably be the BIS funding feasibility study’s and maybe testing rocket motors, but once you get to orbital-class rockets your going to need a source of a lot more funding. A team of 20 people might be able to cobble together some captured V2s and launch them, but for going to the Moon your going to need a lot more than that. This was right after WWII, and London in basically in ruins, wether the population wants to acknowledge that or not, so getting the government to release funds will be difficult.

However, that ruined state Britain is in will also mean they are going to want to do something to restore confidence in their ability’s as a nation, and perhaps boast to the other nations about. Also keep in mind that the aircraft production factories are still winding down from working in overdrive for the last few years, and are going to want to find something to do now that the war is over. Building an aircraft is not to different from a ballistic missile, and combined with the fact Britain knows first-hand just how destructive they are it’s not too far fetched that Britain might want some of its own.

I’m imagining that it would probably start in ~1944 with a V2 (or at least the engine section of one, or even just the blueprints) being recovered intact, maybe from a V2 that his London, had its warhead fail, and landed in a soft location. If they can reverse engineer it, (or build one from captured blueprints) then the BIS can probably get V2 level engine tech around 1945, which means once the war ends the BIS will already have enough experience to start flying captured V2s right away. If they can get British built V2s flying by 1948, then they could get something akin to a Juno rocket, with maybe 10kg to orbit capability flying by 1950. Also under development would be Megaroc (see here: https://www.bis-space.com/what-we-do/projects/megaroc - http://www.astronautix.com/m/megaroc.html), which would put the first British astronaut in space by 1949. If they can get a Proton or Saturn C-3 sized rocket built by 1955, then they might make the Moon in 1960.

The only way I can see this working is if they apply the mentality of over-engineering everything. “Why shave of every single gram you can when you could just build a rocket twice as big?” If they don’t worry about high performance engines or cutting mass fractions or fine tuning every last detail and just say “that looks like it might work... okay ship it to the launch site”, then they could have a chance. The upside of this mentality is it’s super cheep, and can use existing aircraft production lines to make hundreds of rockets a month. The downside is that 99 of those 100 rockets will fail, and all of them are going to be over-engineered to the point of being ludicrously huge. Still, it might work.

I’m curious about other people’s thoughts on the matter. For a long time most people have been of the opinion that the BIS Moonship was an “interesting idea, but not really possible”. What do you think?

Could the Union Jack be planted on the Moon in some alternate timeline?

I’d love to contribute to this but simply no very little of this subject. But by posting I hope it keeps this thread going a little longer because I’d be happy to learn more. Of course during the 50s and 60s (revitalised in the 80s), Dan Dare was a British fictional space pioneer that grew famous and therefore I think people had assumed it had been possible me that Britain could have had a space industry to rival others.

 

[BillKerman1234]

I’d love to contribute to this but simply no very little of this subject. But by posting I hope it keeps this thread going a little longer because I’d be happy to learn more. Of course during the 50s and 60s (revitalised in the 80s), Dan Dare was a British fictional space pioneer that grew famous and therefore I think people had assumed it had been possible me that Britain could have had a space industry to rival others.

Thank you! I have read a few Dan Dare comics, and yes they do imply a sense of optimism about Britain’s future in space, one that would indicate many people had high hopes that such a future could exist. This would indicate that the British people during the 50s and 60s were very interested in space and might have been ok with a large amount of funding being spent on the program.

As for the 30s and 40s, it’s more difficult to tell. I would guess that at that point most people would be fine with non-military spaceflight, as long as it didn’t take too many funds away from rebuilding. It is important to note though that during the 30s through to the 40s and 50s Britain was one of the major world leaders in technology, even building the first jet powered passenger plane in 1949. This would indicate that Britain was ok with spending large amounts of money on technological projects, but typically said projects were run by private industries and corporations.

Interestingly though, by the 60s Britain seemed to be giving up on its technological advantage over the rest of the world, and space projects like the BAE MUSTARD were shot down quite quickly.

 

[CarribeanViking]

Alternate timelines? Certainly. To quote from my own not-on-this-site timeline,

We have just passed through a great and terrible war, in the course of which certain wild promises were made, mainly to the men who fought, that we could not go on as we had been up until now; that things must, and would change.

Where in this great war was the strength of India? It was not evident, at sea. There were a few troop convoys, but apart from those who came forward and chose to fight, and who were welcome, and to whom the same promises were made as to British fighting men- apart from those hundred thousand men, what came forth from the land of three hundred million?

What is the power of India, in the age of the dreadnought, the aeroplane and the tank? [...] India must not be allowed to remain a neglected industrial backwater, peacefully agrarian, a grazing animal in a world of tigers- cannot. That would be of no credit to either party.

Britain's role as the workshop of the world was put to the test in the late war. We did not, entirely, rise to the challenge. Our needs far outran our means, and much of our wealth went on obtaining the tools of war- chiefly from our own strongest rivals.

That could and should have been spent within the Empire, on Indian factories and assembly lines, on growing the strength of the Raj-

The upshot of which, by ITTL 1970 and various fun emergencies along the way, is a three- cornered space race that results in three major orbital stations, the Commonwealth's Halley Station, Russia's Port Tsiolkovsky, America's Goddard Base, and three seed- corn lunar stations, Herschel Station, Tsander Base and Molina Field, and the initially Commonwealth but increasingly multilateral Ramanujan Station farside observatory.

You need to start around about the time of the Great War, really- the thirties is probably too late, and any time after 1939 is definitely too late, the science might have been there but the financial position to do any of it was long gone. Imperial Federation might have been the way to go.

 

[Michel Van]

You need two important Things to make work that Scenario:

BIS get rights to Test Rockets and engines and be not consider as fraudulent organization.
WW2 would be option were Military give BIS those rights as creditworthy organization.

For Moon landing you need Political support
like that Britain want to build up a "Vertical Empire"

 

[Kaze]

I got a good idea for guy to reverse engineer the V-2 Rockets.

Ever heard of Quatermass? You can think of Quatermass as a human version of Doctor Who without the Tardis or the Screw-driver.

Benard Quatermass was a fictional rocket scientist that according to his BBC biography studied rocketry in World War 2 - probably to reverse engineer them or shoot them down, but he was a devoted pacifict. After the war he heads a rocketry society that orbits a man into space with disastrous results, fights alien incursions, plans to build a Moon base (but delayed by alien invasion and a military idiot wanting to place nuclear weapons on it pointed at the Earth), he retires or is forced into retirement (probably due to the failure of the Moon base), and in the late 1960's / 1970's he died in an accidental use of a hydrogen bomb (to defeat an alien invasion).

 

[Incasaurus]

So do you think anyone whether a British empire that does not take part in WW1 could be the world leader in the Space Race. I realise that due to multiple butterflies this is a hard question to answer. However I’m of the opinion that if Great Britain and the Commonwealth could avoid the Great War and specifically the land war then I imagine it may have the resources to hold its possessions and power for longer. Maybe.

Could a GB that decides to engage in sea blockades and naval war only as proposed tentatively IOTL 1914 could have negotiated an early peace with the German empire and allies? Of course the butterflies are tremendous at this point.

 

[Dynasoar]

Recall having been shown a copy of pages from the journal of the BIS dating from the late thirties presenting a detailed moon rocket proposal. Originally in early fifties, then again much later by the same friend, consulting for Sandia.

Any chance that someone can direct me to this article- It dealt with a moonship driven entirely by a large number of solid fuel fuel rockets which were jettisoned as consumed.

Superficially numbers seemed within reason.

Dynasoar

Was able to download referenced material from the first posting. Included a short summary of the article mentioned above. Thanks much!

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

As Bernard Quatermass and Colonel Dan Dare have been mentioned may I add Jet Morgan from Journey Into Space a BBC Radio science fiction series of the 1950s. However, the stories were set in the 1960s and 1970s.

Charles Chilton wrote it. IIRC from an interview he did for Radio Four Extra his technical advisor was Kenneth Gatland. I've several of his books in the study.

Morgan's crew included a cockney, an Australian and a Canadian. However, IIRC it wasn't out of a sense of internationalism or a continuing informal British Empire/stronger Commonwealth. It was simply because it was easier to tell which voice was which with the radio technology of the day.

There were a few sequels in from the 1980s to the 2000s, IIRC all written by Chilton who lived to be over 90. These included The Return From Mars in 1981, with the original characters played by different actors. Then in the middle 1980s Space Force which was to have been a new series of Journey Into Space with the original actors who were still alive and willing to be in it, but BBC management decided to do it with different actors. IIRC the last one was in 2009 because I remember listening to the end of it driving to Manchester Airport. David Jacobs who had been in the original series (but not as Jet Morgan) was Jet Morgan.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

The BIS did so much theory and work on paper, precisely because they weren't allowed to play with noisy rockets in crowded Britain.
So, if they WERE allowed to play with rockets, there wouldn't be be any JBIS, and no moon rocket study.

That said, they TOTALLY underestimated the cost and technical difficulty of the task. For an example, their reentry scheme simply wouldn't have worked. But no one, anywhere, knew that at the time because there was no experience with the extreme conditions of reentry.

 

[Undeadmuffin]

The Selene Project timeline deal with a British-French lunar landing (spoiler, i guess)

 

[Michel Van]

A interesting alternative is BIS plans for 1960s lunar mission by P. A. E. Stewart
He wanted to use Modified Blue Streak rocket to bring Astronauts to moon in Armstrong Whitworth waverider capsules

It would match better the Idea of V2 as Base for British rockets: V2 -> Blue Streak MRBM -> British moon rocket.
but the dimension of program would be similar to USA Apollo Program also in Budget.
maybe as a Commonwealth of Nation Join venture ? ( Britain, Canada, Australia and New Zealand)

More on proposal here
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/british-1960-manned-lunar-project.6954/

 

[Simon]

Exactly what it says on the tin. Can a BIS moon-ship conduct a manned lunar landing before July 20th, 1969?

...

Could the Union Jack be planted on the Moon in some alternate timeline?

You can achieve pretty much anything provided you throw enough resources at it, witness our timeline's Apollo program. Which is why I unfortunately come down on it being technically possible but pretty much impossible practically, unless you make some major changes to the course of the war Britain will have too many other financial commitments in the post-war period. Even if they were in a better position I still think they would find more pressing things to spend the money on as they have nowhere near the need to compete with the Soviet Union as the US felt it did.

This might not be such a bad thing though – for all that the Apollo program was a glorious achievement and advanced scientific understanding, for a country like the UK it would be incredibly overkill. You could probably spend half as much, that still being more than likely, putting men into orbit and then concentrating on satellite and robotic exploration and still make major contributions to humanity's knowledge. I do have a rough outline of a timeline schemed where research into rocketry for rocket-assisted take-off gear (RATOG) in the latter half of the 1930s sees more advanced work on surface-to-air missiles (SAMs) and surface-to-surface missiles (SSMs) similar to the V2 occur during WWII, which in turn leads to a more advanced space programme via defence spending after the war.

BIS get the right to test rockets and engines and be not be considered as a fraudulent organization.

As has been posted on similar threads there's a reading of the Explosives Act 1875 that it only really applies to solid propellants, which you could emphasise even more by calling your experiments jet engines, which would have the happy benefit of pushing research down the liquid propellant path. The main problem as always is money – the early British Interplanetary Society (BIS) members being young men with limited financial resources and no patrons. Realistically you need one of the government research establishments or defence companies to start investigating liquid propellants.

The BIS did so much theory and work on paper, precisely because they weren't allowed to play with noisy rockets in crowded Britain.

I have wondered in the past if that might not have been a good thing. One of the government research establishments or defence companies investigating liquid propellants would have the resources to do a lot of the initial development work whilst the BIS would concentrate on more advanced long-range ideas.

 

[Dave Shoup]

Exactly what it says on the tin. Can a BIS Moonship conduct a manned Lunar landing before July 20th, 1969? Could the Union Jack be planted on the Moon in some alternate timeline?

Realistically? The BIS was founded in 1933, so if Europe avoids a great war in the 1930s-40s, the economic and technical resources "might" be available, but the obvious question is why? Where is the political consensus in he UK to spend vast amounts of money on such a program, absent the Cold War - or "a" Cold War?

An Anglo-French vs. Nazi Germany Cold War "might" lead to an early interest in satellite-based reconnaissance, the same for an Anglo-American vs. Nazi Germany Cold War, but that's still a long way from a manned lunar mission, even as a blind for a recon satellite program - likewise, in any event in such a world, presumably the available R&D funds is going to nuclear weapons, jet aircraft, etc.

If WW II occurs - more as less - as historically, the resulting Anglo-American/European (NATO) vs. USSR Cold war is going to take the historical path in which the UK concentrates on being a Atlantic alliance partner; there is a remote possibility the British might pursue a semi-independent earth orbital satellite launch capability using Blue Streak developments that "might" develop into a manned earth orbital program, but that's pretty remote - and a really long way from beating Apollo to the moon by 1969.

 

[Weaver]

The fact is that Britain actually was a world-leader in aviation and jet propulsion in 1945 and simply gave it all away, even to the Soviets. Britain lacked the will to do anything outstanding in that drab, stoney-broke world.

 

[Jürgen]

I’m going to come with a unpopular opinion, Britain was a rotting corpse moving into the 20th century, it had nowhere to go but down. Not taking part of in WWI would maybe save the British a little longer, but with changing demography and technology the British empire was on the way down no matter what. Maybe British could have dealt with the potential decline better, some people have suggested a Britain which moves its focus from India to the Persian Gulf, it could have worked, but looking at the ME today do anybody imagine that wouldn’t end up a Damocles Sword for the British.

Maybe we could see a British moon landing at the very end of their greatness and before the collapse began.

 

[PSL]

Britain could barely achieve their empire commitments and NATO commitments- with out going bankrupt , the post war decolonization was in evitable given the staggering cost of WW-II.

Here's an outrageous suggestion that ought to piss every one off. Come to terms with Nazi and co develop the V-Rockets defeating the Soviets.

Hate that, you have to go beyond that effort to reach the MOON b4 1970.

in 1973 congress was informed the cost of the APOLLO program was 25 billion USD , which in 1973 was 20 billion British pounds.

 

[Simon]

In 1973 Congress was informed the cost of the Apollo program was $25 billion, which in 1973 was £20 billion.

Which according to the Bank of England's on-line site would work out to roughly £238 billion nowadays. As I wrote before I think the best you could reasonable get would be a more advanced rocket and satellite / robotic exploration, even just putting a man into orbit is probably open to question.

One of the biggest boosts from Britain staying more involved with space would be their likely continued involvement with the European Space Agency. IIRC a previous thread had the ESA's budget at roughly a third of the NASA's, with British involvement that could reasonably rise to forty per cent or perhaps even forty-five per cent at a push.

 

[MKD]

This is very Dan Dare/Spitfires in space !

To re purpose the famous Ernie Bevin quote:

"We've got to have this thing. I don't mind it for myself, but I don't want any other Foreign Secretary of this country to be talked at or to by the Secretary of State of the United States as I have just been in my discussion with Mr Byrnes. We've got to have this thing over here, whatever it costs ... We've got to have the bloody Union Jack flying on top of it."

In late 1946 and in great secrecy the British government decided that as part of their efforts to develop an atomic weapon they would also look at both delivery methodologies and advances made by Nazi scientists in the fields of rocketry and guidance. Memories within the Atlee government were fresh of the destruction caused by the V1 & V2 weapons that had bombarded London late in the war and the fear that had been generated within the civilian population by the sudden and shattering arrival of these weapons. The top secret Black Yeoman project was initially a purely militarily mission designed to determine the best method by which the British atomic weapon could be delivered to targets in Europe.

However, it very quickly became apparent that Britain had secured a treasure trove of information form the Nazi rocket program that they had "neglected" to pass to the Americans. The Labour Government felt that, despite the county being almost bankrupt, they had to preserve the advances made by British experts during the war and build on their position at the cutting edge of aeronautical and computational technology. The fact that the manufacturing and assembly plants were based in marginal constituencies and employed many thousands of people played no part in the decision making process!

Classified above top secret (higher even that that of the atomic weapons programme itself) and run out of a nondescript office building owned by the ministry of supply in the West Midlands the programme that later became known as Orange Eagle very quietly recalled to government service the most eminent British scientists who had been so crucial in designing the weapons and technology that had won the war and put them to work on designing and building a rocket that would, within 20 years, put a man on the moon......................

 

[Simon]

Doing some reading I was surprised that I had forgotten how inexpensive and quick the development of the Black Arrow rocket, which launched the Prospero satellite, was. £10 million, roughly equivalent to £152 million nowadays, and around five and a half years seem like an absolute bargain. Now a lot of that is down to using research and development from the previous Black Knight rocket and Blue Steel missile but even so. Trying to juggle a few dates but considering that the International Geophysical Year was announced in 1952 and both the US and Soviet Union stated their intentions to launch satellites as part of it in 1955 I think it might be possible to get the UK involved and launch their own one in mid-1958. If Britain is initially much closer to the two superpowers does it make cancellation harder or do financial pressures still win out?