No 4th Crusade: How does Byzantium/Rhomania develop?

It's hard to say with much certainty. The state apparatus of the Empire is likely to continue to give the Romans a number of distinct strengths and weaknesses, the latter of which IMO are much more likely to worsen in the near-mid term. Those being of course, the weakness of the Empire in managing modern trade, the erosion of the traditional tax base, and the rising trends in separatism. A strong emperor, such as the Laskaris, would certainly be able to manage the latter, but from Manzikert onwards no emperor was ever able to stamp out the trend towards local rulers/magnates asserting themselves.

The economic problems are worse. The Italian city states do and will continue to dominate Roman trade. Constantinople may have been at a high point in 1200, but the wealth it generated was not really going into the Emperor's coffers. The land-based system of wealth generation was still ruined post-Manzikert, leaving the empire with an unstable tax base. This was not a terminal issue, but certainly an intractable one. Again, a strong emperor could (and when they existed did) manage the problems to a degree, but resolving them they could not. Roman culture at the time was not amenable to large scale changes, and unlike their Ottoman conquerers the Romans were not going to be able to simply overawe more economically savvy opponents with sheer power.

None of this is to say that the Empire is doomed. It did still have a number of strengths, in particular in terms of raising and supplying relatively large and powerful armies that could go toe to toe with most European forces (albeit usually supplemented by Western Europeans), and so long as Constantinople was unconquered it was very difficult for anyone to project power into the Thracian heartland for an extended period of time. A series of strong Komnenoi-style emperors would certainly be able to re-establish a stable, strong state. I doubt reconquering the Bulgarians is going to be easy, though, and retaking Anatolia would require not just the ever-elusive energy to concentrate on a single front but also a level of vision that even the Komnenoi lacked.

Many people assume that the Nicaean Empire represents a model of what an undivided Roman Empire could achieve in the early 13th century. That is, an efficient, united, nativist state that could progressively restore Roman fortunes. Beyond noting that the Nicaeans had unusual good luck in their enemies ruining each other and a quiet eastern front, what made Nicaea a more efficient state would be difficult to replicate from Constantinople - as Michael VIII found. Nicaea had an ideological unity in terms of retaking the City, but also a geographic and cultural unity absent in a trans-Bosporun Empire. It focused on itself, and was very successful, for a time. This focus vanished as soon as the Emperor ceased to be himself focused on Anatolia, and indeed Anatolia was quickly alienated. The particulars are not inevitable, but I think the overall takeaway is this: managing the much larger populations of the late medieval era and the much larger diffusions of power this created was a very challenging task that OTL the Empire failed, and while this was not inevitable the Roman Empire was not just waiting for some visionary to restore Basil II's domain. Rather, his successors faced challenges that he never did, and while they failed this does not mean that anyone else would not have.
 
really depends on what empeor takes the throne if the byzantines are lucky they could get good leaders if they are smart they could use the respite of the mongol invasions to their adavatages and become a vassal to them ( but that would require them to be politcal genuis)

sure the mongols caused more turks to come but they where weak bayliks (except for the ottomans ) with a weaker anatolia not controled by the sultanate of rum , with a stronger byzantine force osman could never be born or his name would be forgotten as another baylik leader

if the byzantines can survive to the area of gunpowder thats bye bye for the nomads forever (almost) since gunpowder made their tatics irrelevant
 
3 immediate changes/questions spring to mind from the PoD.

1 More breathing room for the ERE to recover and reform. Given its historical ability to bounce back from disaster, I'd say the chances of remaining a regional power are good.

2 Relations between Orthodoxy and Catholicism are less strained.

3 How does the Crusade fare in Egypt? Unlike the Rhomanoi, I'd imagine they knew they were a likely target and would probably be better prepared.

Didn't the Varangian guard get disbanded after the sack? Maybe here the equipment eventually gets an upgrade. Polearms anyone?
 
Given its historical ability to bounce back from disaster, I'd say the chances of remaining a regional power are good.

I'd dispute this. The Empire never actually recovered from Yarmouk, Manzikert, Myriokephalon, or the Sack of 1204. It merely survived them in a diminished form. 1180-1203 saw some pretty massive setbacks, and while the Empire could and did survive another couple of centuries it never came within cooee of regaining Bulgaria or the Northern/Southern coasts of Anatolia. The Komnenoi never had to deal with major Balkan-based threats, and indeed only occasionally any major threats intruding into the Balkans from outside. Surviving as a modest Greek/Western Anatolian entity with an undamaged Constantinople certainly constitutes 'regional power', but unlike even the 12th century there is simply no room left to fall back on. Strategic depth has been lost, and any further losses risk the same terminal spiral that by 1300 was almost inescapable, and which the three highly competent 13th century emperors - Laskaris, Vatatzes, and Palaiologos - failed to bring it out of. In other words, while it certainly has greater chances than OTL, greater than 'abject failure' is not necessarily all that great.
 
As everyone else said the answer is "it depends." If the ERE gets a few great (not good, great) Emperors in a row AND the Mongols come and hinder the Seljuks while leaving the ERE more or less alone AND those aforementioned great Emperors deal with the Bulgarians then maybe the ERE can hang on as a regional power until the next series of crises hit them when they inevitably lose the cosmic lottery and get a bad Emperor or two. If they draw the inside straight that I (and others) have outlined then yes, they can survive in a form for centuries longer.
 
In a scenario where either the 4th Crusade was never launched or went to Egypt as originally planned, how would the Byzantine/Rhomanian Empire develop? What are the long-term prospects of their survival without the Fourth Crusade breaking the empire's back? How long does the Angeloi rule over Rhomania last? How do the Mongol Invasions affect Rhomania sans the 4th Crusade?
Here's the problem with the Roman right before the 4th Crusade. They were already in a dire state right before the collapse. When the French Crusaders and Venetians partitioned the Empire, they did it based on existing tax records and other such documents. Some places weren't partitioned because they had basically seceded from the empire proper refusing to acknowledge Constantinople's authority. Provinces like Trebizond, were already independent because the Komnenoi had already setup shop there with the idea that they were the rightful Roman Emperors. Alexios III was a terrible ruler whose corruption and incompetence led to the army being gutted due to lack of funding. Many citizens turned to local magnates for protection from Turkish raids in Anatolia. Though perhaps you could have Theodoros Laskaris succeed the Angeloi and setup his own dynasty. He was married to Alexios's daughter. Theodoros was a very competent ruler when he ruled the Empire of Nicaea. The Anatolian peasantry loved him. He basically maintained the territorial integrity of his lands, built up some infrastructure, and ruled as a Roman Emperor in exile. As emperor he would likely do a pretty good job.

Despite the dire state the empire was in leading up to 1204, the situation was not unsalvageable, as Michael VIII restored the empire after retaking Constantinople in the 1260's with the empire falling in 1453. Alexios I arguably had a worse situation than the empire in 1204.

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If it fails to breach the Theodosian Walls but still causes a popular uprising that puts Nikolaos Kanabos in power, then I have HIGH hopes for the empire.

Get it? Kanabos/Cannabis, high, because it's marijuana.... Never mind.

Actually Kanabos is sort of a wild card. Popular for various reasons, young, and reason to believe he could have been a great Emperor. But also it is difficult to know how far he might go either way - tyrant or a reborn Basil II are both plausible.

I agree with the earlier post that the OTL outcome was about the worst possible scenario. Without internal decimation the Empire will retain some vigor into the 13th century, and even with Macedonia/western OTL Bulgaria only having just been lost there is reason to believe (yet another) reconquest was possible. Had the Crusader armies been used as mercenaries to that end, especially in Asia, numerous scenarios are possible. Mostly I think the Empire continues on her gradual descent if Alexios III still comes to reign, if Isaacius II remains in place and is not blinded the descent is somewhat abated as the peripheral territories lost in the late 1190s/early 1200s are instead likely kept Rhomanian.

In either scenario, Mongol decimation of the Turks east of Byzantium territory will give the Empire some reprieve, they might even give cause to some sort of temporary alliance between Turks and Rhomans. A marriage pact would not be unheard of, moreover the chance arises for a Muslim (Ottoman?) ruler to take or at least claim the throne by bloodline under the right circumstances.
 

Deleted member 67076

If the ERE gets a few great (not good, great) Emperors in a row AND the Mongols come and hinder the Seljuks while leaving the ERE more or less alone AND those aforementioned great Emperors deal with the Bulgarians then maybe the ERE can hang on as a regional power
More of a great power by then.

Good rulers while the Seljuqs have their nasty decline from the 1240s onward means the balance in Anatolia is firmly Byzantine (and probably a number of very major gains up to full conquest is in the cards). At the same time the Bulgarians are likely destined for a rough period as the second empire dealt with similar trends of decentralization under powerful magnates (ironically created by a more advanced and settled economy) alongside the Mongols ravaging the Balkans. I have less faith in the ERE taking Bulgaria than Anatolia but pushing the borders to a favorable position in the Balkans mountains and past Macedonia is an option.

But, borders like this, alongside making the Italians pay taxes (a goal of the empire since the 1180s and enforced whenever it was strong enough) mean the empire is far stronger than most of its neighbors in the region.
 
More of a great power by then.

Good rulers while the Seljuqs have their nasty decline from the 1240s onward means the balance in Anatolia is firmly Byzantine (and probably a number of very major gains up to full conquest is in the cards). At the same time the Bulgarians are likely destined for a rough period as the second empire dealt with similar trends of decentralization under powerful magnates (ironically created by a more advanced and settled economy) alongside the Mongols ravaging the Balkans. I have less faith in the ERE taking Bulgaria than Anatolia but pushing the borders to a favorable position in the Balkans mountains and past Macedonia is an option.

But, borders like this, alongside making the Italians pay taxes (a goal of the empire since the 1180s and enforced whenever it was strong enough) mean the empire is far stronger than most of its neighbors in the region.

Taking a fractured Anatolia is still an incredibly difficult task. Retaking the coasts is certainly possible, but the interior is deeply Turkish and deeply inhospitable. IMO only a very slow, Ioannes-style siege strategy is likely to have long term success.
 
Some posters on this site assume automatically that a Mongol invasion does the Eastern Empire any favors. This is not necessarily the case and the Mongols do not automatically defeat everyone in this atl just like in otl. It is also a major assumption that the Empire has anything related to a cordial relationship with the Ilkhanate, which will demand tributes and will attempt to restrain any Byzantine attempt to expand in Anatolia. Byzantium is, after having gained sour relations once more with the Latin world, alone diplomatically and it lacks the bases with which to sustain wars with Eastern foes and Byzantium can no longer rely constantly upon sectarian/sectional division within the Islamic world.

Frankly, the most pressing matter, is that Byzantium gather allies and support from somewhere outside of its realm. None of the Islamic powers are going to support Byzantium, especially not the Bahri Mamluks, the Ilkhans have already been discussed and none of the steppe hordes such as the Qumans or Qipchaq are effective and are too fickle to be useful. Thus, my opinion would be that Byzantium in 1200 or near said time, attempts to harshly re-align itself to the Papacy under Innocent III, who has both the power to assist Byzantium and certainly a fanatical will to see a crusade and thus limit the disunity spreading within Europe. If Byzantium can receive some sort of agreement with Innocent III and Innocent III is able to funnel his authority into life saving crusade ventures for Byzantium, it could theoretically be possible for Byzantium to empower itself enough to subdue the Bulgarians and its own internal division and thus place itself in greater position for the coming centuries.
 
Taking a fractured Anatolia is still an incredibly difficult task. Retaking the coasts is certainly possible, but the interior is deeply Turkish and deeply inhospitable. IMO only a very slow, Ioannes-style siege strategy is likely to have long term success.

With a steady flow of soldiery funneled in similar fashion to the Reconquista, it is possible. It is also plausible that if Anatolia is at some point held by a particularly unified state, rather than the decentralized system prior to the Ottoman Empire, that Byzantium with allies, could gain a massive victory in the field and conquer vast swathes in a single round. This may be best done oddly, against the Ilkhanate...
 

Deleted member 67076

Taking a fractured Anatolia is still an incredibly difficult task. Retaking the coasts is certainly possible, but the interior is deeply Turkish and deeply inhospitable. IMO only a very slow, Ioannes-style siege strategy is likely to have long term success.
Im not going to say its easy, but I don't find it impossible or particularly difficult. Meager gains were the strategy that worked and is most likely is going to be employed due to strategic concerns across the empire. A small campaign every year is both the smart way and the cheap way to do it, especially as the interior breaks apart and the magnates switch sides. I think this is a project that would begin in the 1230s and only gain momentum after the 1260s (by which point I could see Ancyra and Konya taken), but at which point stiffens resistance to the rest of the Beyliks and Armenians.

The interior was creolizing just as much as it was Turkified. This is especially true on the elite level where you often got intense religious syncretism alongside the necessity for important persons to speak Greek and Turkish, alongside the leftover Greek peasantry from prior to the migration. Both of these factors should make cementing control (especially in urban areas) easier than people here give credit for, I think.


It is also a major assumption that the Empire has anything related to a cordial relationship with the Ilkhanate, which will demand tributes and will attempt to restrain any Byzantine attempt to expand in Anatolia.
To be fair, the Byzantines had absolutely no problem paying tribute to the Mongols and were the first people in the region to bend the knee and pay off the new guys.
 
Im not going to say its easy, but I don't find it impossible or particularly difficult. Meager gains were the strategy that worked and is most likely is going to be employed due to strategic concerns across the empire. A small campaign every year is both the smart way and the cheap way to do it, especially as the interior breaks apart and the magnates switch sides. I think this is a project that would begin in the 1230s and only gain momentum after the 1260s (by which point I could see Ancyra and Konya taken), but at which point stiffens resistance to the rest of the Beyliks and Armenians.

The interior was creolizing just as much as it was Turkified. This is especially true on the elite level where you often got intense religious syncretism alongside the necessity for important persons to speak Greek and Turkish, alongside the leftover Greek peasantry from prior to the migration. Both of these factors should make cementing control (especially in urban areas) easier than people here give credit for, I think.



To be fair, the Byzantines had absolutely no problem paying tribute to the Mongols and were the first people in the region to bend the knee and pay off the new guys.

Bending the knee is almost always a losing proposition unless you gain true allies such as Innocent III, whose faith and ideals make him particularly susceptible. The Ilkhans are useless as allies, what will the Ilkhans do to assist Byzantium other than not attack them? Otl, the Ilkhans were defeated by the Bahri Mamluks and promptly promoted little in the way of stability or benefit for any major sector in the region. Timur in the least, destroyed potential enemies, the Ilkhans on the otherhand defeated states that could possibly pose as Byzantine allies, such as the Abbasids, Hashashin or Kwharezmshahs.

An expansion of the bending the knee proposition, simply put, transient safety is never the ideal nor is it a measure of success. Byzantium held itself together in the 8th, 9th and 10th century against the Abbasid Caliphate, by no means by appeasement which they could have done by submission, but by being strong and defending itself, even if that incurs short term losses. It is better to think with the mindset of the century than with the mind of the decade.
 
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Deleted member 67076

An expansion of the bending the knee proposition, simply put, transient safety is never the ideal nor is it a measure of success. Byzantium held itself together in the 8th, 9th and 10th century against the Abbasid Caliphate, by no means by appeasement which they could have done by submission, but by being strong and defending itself, even if that incurs short term losses. It is better to think with the mindset of the century than with the mind of the decade.
Transient safety does serve its purposes however. And for 20 years this is a good strategy, particularly if focused in affairs in the Balkans. Once that is wrapped up and the Khanate is receding, then its perfect time to push back and repudiate.

I agree though! Its not a long time option. But it doesn't have to be.
 
Transient safety does serve its purposes however. And for 20 years this is a good strategy, particularly if focused in affairs in the Balkans. Once that is wrapped up and the Khanate is receding, then its perfect time to push back and repudiate.

I agree though! Its not a long time option. But it doesn't have to be.

Maybe, but it sets poor precedents. Most states that resort to tribute and submission are short for this world. The way the Abbasids approached the Mongols was the best route. They did not take an aggressive stance, yet steadfastly refused Mongol pretensions of tribute. If the Abbasid Caliph al-Muta'sim had been more prudent and took the advice of his ministers, it is quite possible that the Abbasid Caliphate would have broken the Mongol horde, which according to the evidences we have, feared the Abbasid ability to defend itself. Considering that the Mongol horde very nearly was unable to subdue the Hashashin, with Abbasid help and alliance, their fears were likely to be justified.

Regardless, it would be much preferred that Byzantium refuses such tribute paying and certainly not do any assistance to said Ilkhanate, who cannot do much of anything to assist the Byzantines. Abbasid foolishness was to actually assist the Mongols in their conquests in the Islamic east, especially of the Hashashin and legitimizing Mongol conquests against the Kwharezmshahs.
 
By 1258 the Rape of Baghdad might be enough to force a cessation of hostilities to drive off the Mongol psychopaths. A combined Byzanto-Turkic force brought together to check the Mongols could lead to several possible outcomes. OTOH, this is still somewhat tough to pull off, but the mid-1200s would favor a Byzantine polity organized enough to recoup recent losses, especially if Alexios III never loses some of them in the first place.
 
By 1258 the Rape of Baghdad might be enough to force a cessation of hostilities to drive off the Mongol psychopaths. A combined Byzanto-Turkic force brought together to check the Mongols could lead to several possible outcomes. OTOH, this is still somewhat tough to pull off, but the mid-1200s would favor a Byzantine polity organized enough to recoup recent losses, especially if Alexios III never loses some of them in the first place.

Assisting the Turkic states of Anatolia is countering any benefit Byzantium could gain in the 1250s. They are empowering their enemies, even if to destroy common foes, is a gamble that geopolitically should not be taken. Likewise, if Byzantium aligns to the Turkic states such as Rumistan, they are not dealing with the potentiality of a Ilkhan-Bahri Mamluk alliance or at least attacks simultaneously.

A better choice is for Byzantium to gather allies from the Latin world and begin to build for itself a powerful position slowly capturing Anatolia, potentially resettling populations both from Europe and its existing Hellenic populaces.
 
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