WI/AHC: Vandals are Stable

[Richard Drummond]

How can we have the Vandals survive so that they do not being ineffective and open to conquest by Justinian. Rather, how could they become a powerful regional player which would go on to last like the Franks did? What would be the effects and how can this be brought about.

 

[John7755 يوحنا]

The first point is to decide what the Vandalic policy will be toward the Berber states to its south, west and east. I suppose they can appease them and weaken their position but lesson Byzantine intervention or find a way to defeat and push their frontiers, at the risk of exposing themselves to enemies such as Byzantium.

 

[Richard Drummond]

The first point is to decide what the Vandalic policy will be toward the Berber states to its south, west and east. I suppose they can appease them and weaken their position but lesson Byzantine intervention or find a way to defeat and push their frontiers, at the risk of exposing themselves to enemies such as Byzantium.

I suppose the Vandals could co-operate with the Berber tribes more. What if the Vandals integrated themselves into the African Romance population. Huneric was after all married to Valentinian III's daughter so I
find it a bit surprising that the Vandals didn't attempt to claim to be the heirs to Rome once Odoacer had gotten rid of the west

 

[John7755 يوحنا]

I suppose the Vandals could co-operate with the Berber tribes more. What if the Vandals integrated themselves into the African Romance population. Huneric was after all married to Valentinian III's daughter so I
find it a bit surprising that the Vandals didn't attempt to claim to be the heirs to Rome once Odoacer had gotten rid of the west

They may in time. However, was there any Germanic tribe that claimed to be the heirs of Rome before the Papacy instituted the Translatio Imperii? The Vandals though could be a great bastion of pro-Papal positions if they survive long enough and assist readily the Lombards and Papacy in expelling the Byzantines from the Exarchate of Italy.

The issue I see with cooperation with the Berber, is that it limits the extent of power projection the Vandals possses. Ideally, the Vandals crush border Berber groups and force them into tributaries that pay in soldiers and so forth. If they cooperate, cooperation and tribute is just a prelude to defeat.

 

[Cryostorm]

Interestingly, if the Vandals strengthen their position in North Africa and help the Ostrogoths in Italy, to mutually protect themselves from the ERE, it might actually strengthen the ERE's position in the east and the Balkans without the overstretching and draining of manpower caused by Justinian's conquests. The whole Mediterranean could be stabilized if this happens.

 

[Arkenfolm]

I suppose the Vandals could co-operate with the Berber tribes more. What if the Vandals integrated themselves into the African Romance population. Huneric was after all married to Valentinian III's daughter so I
find it a bit surprising that the Vandals didn't attempt to claim to be the heirs to Rome once Odoacer had gotten rid of the west

They did integrate into the African Romance peoples, hence why Roman culture had a flourishing under Vandal rule as exemplified by the poet Corippus. They had enough Berber influence too, as observed by their naming customs which blended Berber and Germanic name elements. But it wasn't enough, since they weren't able to solidify enough to prevent Byzantine reconquest.

Best case would be a perfect fusion of Vandals and Berbers serving as the military class for the locals who can seal off the land and sea approaches to Carthage. Religiously, Carthage's archbishop is elevated in prestige to that of a Patriarch.

 

[Mr_Fanboy]

I have a feeling that if Constantinople does not come knocking, then the Ostrogoths or Visigoths (or a combined Gothic empire) eventually will.

 

[Arkenfolm]

I have a feeling that if Constantinople does not come knocking, then the Ostrogoths or Visigoths (or a combined Gothic empire) eventually will.

Visigoths had their hands full with Spain. Ostrogoths might have better luck, but I'd imagine an Ostrogoth-Vandal War would have a significant Berber force joining the Vandals (or maybe the Goths, but any Gothic rule in North Africa will be temporary thanks to the Berbers).

 

[Richard Drummond]

They may in time. However, was there any Germanic tribe that claimed to be the heirs of Rome before the Papacy instituted the Translatio Imperii? The Vandals though could be a great bastion of pro-Papal positions if they survive long enough and assist readily the Lombards and Papacy in expelling the Byzantines from the Exarchate of Italy.

The issue I see with cooperation with the Berber, is that it limits the extent of power projection the Vandals possses. Ideally, the Vandals crush border Berber groups and force them into tributaries that pay in soldiers and so forth. If they cooperate, cooperation and tribute is just a prelude to defeat.

So the solution for the Berbers is to crush them. What could Huneric have done differently that would have achieved this?

They did integrate into the African Romance peoples, hence why Roman culture had a flourishing under Vandal rule as exemplified by the poet Corippus. They had enough Berber influence too, as observed by their naming customs which blended Berber and Germanic name elements. But it wasn't enough, since they weren't able to solidify enough to prevent Byzantine reconquest.

Best case would be a perfect fusion of Vandals and Berbers serving as the military class for the locals who can seal off the land and sea approaches to Carthage. Religiously, Carthage's archbishop is elevated in prestige to that of a Patriarch.

Have you got any links, this sounds very interesting. Naming customs of the region interest me but I haven't found much work on this.

 

[jocay]

Convert to Trinitarian Christianity.

That removes the religious component to the tensions between Carthage and Constantinople. Relations between the Vandals and their Roman subjects would be less antagonistic. The best people to accomplish this would be either Gunthamund or Hilderic - though for the latter, that would make them incredibly unpopular with the Vandal aristocracy. Play up the fact that the Vandalic kings are maternally descended from Roman imperial bloodline amongst the commons- encourage diplomatic marriage alliance with Constantinople. For example, have Justinian's cousin Germanus marry a Vandalic princess.

Maintain Vandalic naval superiority to ward off funny business from the Goths or Romans.

That would be enough to allow the Vandals to focus most of their attention on the Berbers. Use a classic divide and conquer strategy pitting the different Berber states against each other. It'll take decades, perhaps likely even centuries but the Vandals could make it out as the long-term victor.