Moskova class amphibious assault ships

[Khanzeer]

With changing priorities in the cold war the Soviets feel that the moskava class Aviation cruisers have outlived their role as anti submarine wessels and decide to transform them into amphibious assault ships
What changes would you make to help that transformation so they can supplement the ivan rugov class ships

 

[Khanzeer]

bump
This is what I think may have been possible ( please correct me )
1-transform the Ka-25 into carrying rocket pods for CAS and carry 10-12 marines each /or can it also carry the Mi-8 /Ka-27 ? these helo borne naval commandos/engineers can act as a vanguard for any assault , clearing obstacles and paving the way for further forces carried by other ships
2-TT were already deleted in 80s i think
3-delete the RBU and FRAS-1 ASW missiles
4- 90+ SA-N-4 SAM or any maybe a longer range SAM system
5- 4 x 130 mm guns for shore bombardment
6- 4 x AK-230
I think the internal capacity is just not there to carry any LCAC , and that is unlikley to be created if it carries the original 18 helos

 

[Bureaucromancer]

What use would it have? Not much call for amphibs in the Baltic, not enough of a fleet for them to be meaningful in the Pacific...

Black Sea? For use against Turkey?

 

[Kalga]

Hmm... premise sounds a bit familiar...
https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/moskva-class-assault-troop-carriers.445163/

So what budget do we have to play around with?

 

[steamboy]

You'd need a bigger ship for sure, the Moskvas were by all accounts terrible sea boats (its why they were in the Med, its a lot smoother usually than Norwegian sea etc).

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

What use would it have? Not much call for amphibs in the Baltic,

Wouldn't Copenhagen be a target in any WWIII?

 

[GarethC]

What use would it have? Not much call for amphibs in the Baltic, not enough of a fleet for them to be meaningful in the Pacific...

Black Sea? For use against Turkey?

Fjord-hopping alomg the Norwegian coast and then taking Iceland to cut the SOSUS line?

 

[steamboy]

Wouldn't Copenhagen be a target in any WWIII?

It was but thats what the Polish and GDR navies were also for. The Soviets built a metric assload of Polnocny class ships and these were deployed in places like the Baltic and were used in large numbers by the Polish navy. You'd not put a big ship like a Moskva class LHA in the Baltic because she'd be sunk within a day or two at most. These things would basically serve in the Northern Fleet and would be there to hit Norway.

 

[Riain]

Iirc the Moskvas had 2 extremely narrow lifts only capable of handling Ka25s. When they embarked Mi17s on occasion they were left on deck.

This would have to be overcome, but if it was they might make a useful addition to an out of area amphibious task force facing minimum opposition.

 

[Riain]

You'd need a bigger ship for sure, the Moskvas were by all accounts terrible sea boats (its why they were in the Med, its a lot smoother usually than Norwegian sea etc).

Off topic , but I thought they were in the Med because that's where the Polaris SSBNs were until the A3 gave them more sea room. No need to make them seaworthy when their quarry is in the Med.

 

[steamboy]

Off topic , but I thought they were in the Med because that's where the Polaris SSBNs were until the A3 gave them more sea room. No need to make them seaworthy when their quarry is in the Med.

The Med can still be quite nasty, and even there the Moskva's were bad sea boats and yep they were in the Med due to the Polaris (I forgot that). But instead of the Moskva how about an earlier version of this class?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Rogov-class_landing_ship

Their job would be to get troops ashore in Fjords, its got an SA-N-4 for air defence and can use helo's and small craft, and if needed, beach herself.

 

[Khanzeer]

What use would it have? Not much call for amphibs in the Baltic, not enough of a fleet for them to be meaningful in the Pacific...

Black Sea? For use against Turkey?

Well thinking more in terms of far flung peace time brush fire war commitments like Yemen, Angola etc
They have no use in WW3 like scenario

 

[Khanzeer]

This would have to be overcome, but if it was they might make a useful addition to an out of area amphibious task force facing minimum opposition.

Exactly and that's the role I imagine they would fit
No Soviet amphib operation will survive against NATO like opposition

 

[Khanzeer]

Fjord-hopping alomg the Norwegian coast and then taking Iceland to cut the SOSUS line?

I honestly think Soviet navy better stick close to their shores in case of a major war with NATO
Icelsnd ? I think they would be slaughtered if they venture too far into the baltic

 

[Khanzeer]

Hmm... premise sounds a bit familiar...
https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/moskva-class-assault-troop-carriers.445163/

So what budget do we have to play around with?

Not much , mostly down sizing the navy
It's late 80s , times are hard
This way you can have a good use out a relatively modern hull esp for flag showing missions and some pseudo power projection

 

[Kalga]

Not much , mostly down sizing the navy
It's late 80s , times are hard
This way you can have a good use out a relatively modern hull esp for flag showing missions and some pseudo power projection

With that shitty a budget (and trust me, it's bad, like when new ships were going out without all their electronics or weapons that doesn't bond well for older ships...)

So in that case any "refit" would involve ripping out most of the weapons, throw in some bunk beds, request some helis, and call it a day. Anything more would require a higher budget than given. It's still gonna be shit at its new role, the whole lack of a well deck and all... or much of anything needed really.

 

[steamboy]

And by the 80's the Moskva's are already 20 odd years old and had fallen behind the times badly in terms of electronics and other systems.

 

[Khanzeer]

And by the 80's the Moskva's are already 20 odd years old and had fallen behind the times badly in terms of electronics and other systems.

They were obsolete in their given role and were too specialized

 

[Khanzeer]

With that shitty a budget (and trust me, it's bad, like when new ships were going out without all their electronics or weapons that doesn't bond well for older ships...)

So in that case any "refit" would involve ripping out most of the weapons, throw in some bunk beds, request some helis, and call it a day. Anything more would require a higher budget than given. It's still gonna be shit at its new role, the whole lack of a well deck and all... or much of anything needed really.

Most of the weapons we are getting rid of are for ASW
We are retaining the AAW and enhancing the ASUW weapons

 

[Kalga]

and enhancing the ASUW weapons

With what money? Seriously, read this, especially the underlined parts:

Industrial productivity has never been altogether satisfactory, particularly in such new fields as electronics. By the early 1980s many new warships were going to sea without key electronic systems, and sometimes even without portions of their armament. The Soviets did continue to develop innovative prototypes, and sometimes they were able to acquire electronic components from the West. Overall, however, it seems unlikely that the system could compete with the Western powers in the ongoing electronic revolution. Unfortunately, the Soviets had no Khrushchev who could envisage some radical military reaction comparable to the 'revolution in military affairs'. The post-Khrushchev settlement, in which all segments of the Soviet system were allowed to develop much as they liked, precluded that. In effect, the costs of maintaining standing forces and building the sort of forces already in production, could not be sustained.