Moskva class Assault troop carriers

destiple

Banned
During the later part of the cold war i.e 80s the Moskova class was clearly obsolete as ASW ships, did the soviets think of turning the Moskva /Leningrad class ships from their original ASW role to Assault Carriers for their naval marines to deal with the localized conflicts

Could they carry larger helicopters like Ka-27 and /or Mi-8/ Mi-24

How many troops can they carry ?

Can they be used alongside Ivan Rugov assault ships ?

How will their missile armament be modified , the M-11 Shtrom are dual role ASUW and AAW weapons and likely be retained

but RPK-1 Vikhr rocket ASW can be replaced by either SSN-14 silex which are dual role ASW /ASUW

RBU can also be used for shore bombardment /back up ASW

Torpedo tubes replaced in 1970s and 57 mm guns can be replaced by additional guns maybe ? like 4 x 76 mm guns or 2 x 130 mm guns which can be used for ASUW and shore bombardment ? or maybe 2 mounts of BM-21 rockets

The Ka-25 ASW helos can be converted to transport helos each with 12 troop capacity , maybe adapted to carry Mi-8?

any other suggestions ?
 
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To take a Moskva class "ASW cruiser" and turn it in to an assault vessel probably is more difficult than simply building one from the start. What you would be making would be an LPH type ship as no way you could make a well deck. The problem is once you get below the hanger deck, the ship is simply not configured for significant troop spaces, armories, ammunition storage etc. Furthermore you'd need enhanced medical spaces for casualties, and storage areas for all sorts of supplies. You need to have properly designed access from troop spaces and storage areas to the flight deck, and elevators to move supplies. Oh, and don't forget enhanced messing facilities to feed the troops as well as more sanitary facilities (what goes in must come out).

Having been on these vessels, there are a ton of design factors you need to deal with to make them effective. To make the Moskvas useful in this way would require a substantial rebuild, might literally not be structurally possible, and at best would result in a limited capability/low capacity asset. There is a reason the Russians signed up to buy two amphibs from the French...
 

destiple

Banned
True it might not be a self-sufficent LPH but its helicopters would be useful for transport in any amphibious assault and also its significant AAW and ASW weapons , so it can supplement ships like Ivan Rugov, ROpoucha and make up for their deficencies and be part of a larger task force?
 
I feel that if the Soviets wanted a LPH, they'd build an LPH, not refit a pre-existing class. These are the people who had division after division of T34/85 sitting in underground bunkers, factory fresh, up until the 80's, "Just in Case".

There's also a question of where exactly you plan to deploy these ships and in what localized conflict? Putting down rebellious vassals in the Warsaw Pact? Third Shock Army can drive there in 48 hours! Afghanistan? Any captain who can get Moskova to Kabul deserves to be named a Hero of the Soviet Union, followed immediately by an arrest by the KGB to be tested for suspected super powers. About the only reasonable use I can think of is against the Norwegian Coast in case of World War Three.
 
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destiple

Banned
There's also a question of where exactly you plan to deploy these ships and in what localized conflict? Putting down rebellious vassals in the Warsaw Pact? Third Shock Army can drive there in 48 hours! Afghanistan? Any captain who can get Moskova to Kabul deserves to be named a Hero of the Soviet Union, followed immediately by an arrest by the KGB to be tested for suspected super powers. About the only reasonable use I can think of is against the Norwegian Coast in case of World War Three.

WW3 with NATO would go nuclear within days otherwise soviets lose big time

Soviets could have intervened in Congo/Angola/South Yemen and other smaller peripherial conflicts which would not draw the ire of USN or Marines.

In 70s they sent a small task force headed by a Kresta II there , so they had started flexing some naval muscles

Moskova could add some flexibility and muscle to an amphib assault esp since the M11 shtrom they carried were dual role SSM and SAM
 
Hmm, maybe if they were designed with such facilities, in the manner of the Jeanne d'Arc? They'd be useful for small scale operations (assisting the odd coup in the third world perhaps) or dealing with terrorists/pirates.
 
^ Yes ! Possible , please tell me more about these !

The exercises? High level corps and army staff milling around maps & conference tables. My direct participation was in the annual 'Cherry Mountain' exercise & staff conferences in 1986. I helped plan a multi battalion artillery raid.
 

destiple

Banned
^ Regarding "Red amphib assaults on Hokkaido & nearby islands " what ports did the soviets intended to use to launch this invasion
when I look at the distances they are longer than what they seem and this causes severe limitations due to the short range of most soviet aircrafts
 
^ Regarding "Red amphib assaults on Hokkaido & nearby islands " what ports did the soviets intended to use to launch this invasion
when I look at the distances they are longer than what they seem and this causes severe limitations due to the short range of most soviet aircrafts

I cant say. One of my peers in the USMC back in 1985 was researching a article on the subject. He explained how the Soviet Army/Navy conducted a series of landing operations along the Korean coast. The assaults were only company or battalion sized, but the follow on forces considerable. larger than commonly supposed. Unfortunatly he did not describe to me the Soviet naval bases and ports in the far east.
 

destiple

Banned
I think its a fascinating subject as we both underestimate and overestimate the soviet pacific /northern fleet and AVMF at the same time.It certainly was not powerful enough to match even a limilited USN presence ( like 2 x CVBG ) but it was more than sufficent to deal with the Japanese and Chinease navies combined.But somehow in our haste to write off everything soviet as junk we miss that
 
I feel that if the Soviets wanted a LPH, they'd build an LPH, not refit a pre-existing class. These are the people who had division after division of T34/85 sitting in underground bunkers, factory fresh, up until the 80's, "Just in Case".

There's also a question of where exactly you plan to deploy these ships and in what localized conflict? Putting down rebellious vassals in the Warsaw Pact? Third Shock Army can drive there in 48 hours! Afghanistan? Any captain who can get Moskova to Kabul deserves to be named a Hero of the Soviet Union, followed immediately by an arrest by the KGB to be tested for suspected super powers. About the only reasonable use I can think of is against the Norwegian Coast in case of World War Three.

Maybe something in the Black sea for operations against Turkey?

I think its a fascinating subject as we both underestimate and overestimate the soviet pacific /northern fleet and AVMF at the same time.It certainly was not powerful enough to match even a limilited USN presence ( like 2 x CVBG ) but it was more than sufficent to deal with the Japanese and Chinease navies combined.But somehow in our haste to write off everything soviet as junk we miss that

Neither the Chinese or the Japanese fleet's during the cold war was all that large or formidable. The PLAN in particular was pretty much just a littoral force with the largest warships being soviet made destroyers.
 

destiple

Banned
Maybe something in the Black sea for operations against Turkey?



Neither the Chinese or the Japanese fleet's during the cold war was all that large or formidable. The PLAN in particular was pretty much just a littoral force with the largest warships being soviet made destroyers.
Against turkey they would be best used if operating from Bulgaria as then they are in range of land based airpower and can target istanbul directly

I'm actually very impressed with the japanese fleet esp in the 80s, 31 Destroyers with harpoons, 29 ASW frigates without harpoon , 16 subs , 6 with harpoon and 100 ASW patrol planes that is a HUGE force bigger than French and RN of the same period ( if you disregard the SSBN and CVG)
 

destiple

Banned
I cant say. One of my peers in the USMC back in 1985 was researching a article on the subject. He explained how the Soviet Army/Navy conducted a series of landing operations along the Korean coast. The assaults were only company or battalion sized, but the follow on forces considerable. larger than commonly supposed. Unfortunatly he did not describe to me the Soviet naval bases and ports in the far east.

what did they hope to achieve with such small raids ?

The follow on forces will likely meet big bigger and better prepared defences so was it even possible ?
 
The major job of the Soviet Navy would have been to try and restrict the flow of troops and supplies across the Atlantic, a task for which a few Moskva variant assault ships serve no useful purpose (not even seizing Iceland a la Clancy). There is zero task for them in the Med, and in the Black Sea assaults on Turkey would be better done by air assault and meeting with land forces. In the Pacific, the Japanese forces would make life miserable for any serious assault force attempting a landing to say nothing of the US forces. The only realistic use for amphibious forces for the Soviets would be in operations against Denmark and the Baltic exits for which a ship the size of a Moskva is not helpful. The potential use of a Moskva class, or several, in conjunction with other amphibious vessels, would be to leapfrog along the northern coast of Norway.
 
Just upgrade the ASW sonar and modernise other armaments. If anything better C3C radars and FCS could improve another battle-group that NATO would have to worry about.
 
IIRC the Moskva's were reputedly very poor sea boats and as folks have pointed out, it would probably be easier to build a new LH(A) than to refit the Moskva class. I don't know much about the Soviets refitting their ships, we know they always developed newer versions of missiles and fire control etc, but they never seemed to do any major upgrades to modernize ships once they were built. For example, you'd expect that the Kara and Kresta II ships would have their SA-N-3's replaced with SA-N-7's when they entered service to improve their anti-air capabilities, or replacing the SA-N-4 with the SA-N-9 for the same role. But the Soviets didn't really do this. They did it on two classes, the Kiev and Kirov, with the last Kirov replacing their SA-N-4's with 9's and changing their gun systems, but this was never done on a larger scale. I would assume they had a reason for it, probably something along keeping the ships ready in case war breaks out. If war breaks out, you will need everything you've got and its no good if a cruisers in the yard for half a year getting her missile system replaced, by the time she's ready, the war will be over.
 
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