Would the atomic bomb be a magic bullet against Germany if they defeated the USSR?

Congratulations on repeatedly missing the part where I said scaled up for Russia's larger size and population.

Opposite here. My point was that a Taliban size insurgency is unlikely, given that at their peak they had 60k when the Soviets had 90k in 1941. If you'd like to look at percentages, 60k out of the Afghan population of 35 Million is 0.001% of the population which, if applied to the Soviet population of 180 Million leads to.....180,000 which is, ironically enough, the exact number of Soviet partisans in WWII. Going off that, they peaked at that number and that was with Moscow directly inserting formations into the rear.

Nor does it have the technology of the ANA or a constant injection of western material and financial support. Instead it has its own set of institutional issues and a long record of failing to keep the lid on insurgencies.

They don't have the technology because the Nazis don't have time machine. As it is, they have more they have better technology for the time and their own industrial base from which to support it. They also have a functional military structure that adequately trains soldiers, don't have to worry about said soldiers attacking their own side, and have soldiers who don't, generally, come from the same background of the ANA and who are simply more motivated than the ANA.

If Germany is trying to exterminate the Russian race (and they are) then the partisans will have very steady recruitment. If the Germans are trying to get by on the cheap then they have ceded the country side to the partisans who are then free to organize and concentrate how they see fit, while acquiring whatever materials they could possibly need from disbanded Red army units and abandoned supply depots.

No. Soviet partisans hiding the woods do not have steady and reliable recruitment unlike a centralized state, which can keep a tally on manpower, sufficiently disburse it and do so in a manner that allows the unit to sustain its logistics. Shoving 10,000 elderly, women and children into the hands of partisans does nothing for them and either leads to the tragedy of them all starving or the horror of them using 9 and 90 year olds as cannon fodder.

Generally speaking, that sort of ad hoc resupply is going to rapidly collapse if it ever could sustain them in the first place.

At most? No, that's closer to the bare minimum if the Germans don't want to start running into larger, better equipped partisan units.

No. The lowest estimate I've seen is 400,000 and the highest is 1 Million by historians, and not higher for exactly the same reasons I said; there simply is no way a few hundred thousand partisans is going to hold down millions of Germans like millions of Red Army soldiers in mechanized formations did.

Speaking of, the USSR still exists on the other side of Urals and Germany's going to have to keep some forces in the east to guard against them. Seeing as how anti-partisan actions will require dispersion rather than concentration this role can't merely be handed over to the occupation forces.

It can, the Soviet rump on the other side of the Urals is going to be in absolutely no condition to do anything to the Reich.
 

elkarlo

Banned
Yes, you can. As sloreck stated, the German evacuations were not heavily contested, but German reinforcements would be. It would not be particularly difficult to cut off these outlying islands from resupply, and after that, it's only a matter of time before the German positions on them fall, especially with Axis logistics on mainland Europe getting trashed as well.
These reinforcements would happen in early 43. The Wallies couldn't contest the reinforcements if any if the axis med islands. The Wallies just didn't have that power of projection yet. Plus the LW would be a more active and viable force. With more pilots not dead or on the eastern front. Plus the axis would have more AAA
 
Congratulations on repeatedly missing the part where I said scaled up for Russia's larger size and population.


Nor does it have the technology of the ANA or a constant injection of western material and financial support. Instead it has its own set of institutional issues and a long record of failing to keep the lid on insurgencies.


If Germany is trying to exterminate the Russian race (and they are) then the partisans will have very steady recruitment. If the Germans are trying to get by on the cheap then they have ceded the country side to the partisans who are then free to organize and concentrate how they see fit, while acquiring whatever materials they could possibly need from disbanded Red army units and abandoned supply depots.


At most? No, that's closer to the bare minimum if the Germans don't want to start running into larger, better equipped partisan units.


Speaking of, the USSR still exists on the other side of Urals and Germany's going to have to keep some forces in the east to guard against them. Seeing as how anti-partisan actions will require dispersion rather than concentration this role can't merely be handed over to the occupation forces.

You would also likely see US or British forces coming up through India or Iran to bolster the Russian Army. There probably would have to be a lot of infrastructure built in those areas but that is something the US does quite well. It has a lot of experience building railroads.
 
These reinforcements would happen in early 43. The Wallies couldn't contest the reinforcements if any if the axis med islands. The Wallies just didn't have that power of projection yet. Plus the LW would be a more active and viable force. With more pilots not dead or on the eastern front. Plus the axis would have more AAA

Well, sure, let’s say the Allies can’t contest the reinforcements when they happen. That just means that the Germans just sent their forces to a bunch of oitrlying islands which will become isolated, cut off, and destroyed as soon as the allies have properly ramped up. Which, really, is inevitable, unless the Germans can somehow outproduce the allies on sea and in the air. Reinforcing the place just means the Nazis will lose more stuff along with the territories in question.
 
Opposite here. My point was that a Taliban size insurgency is unlikely, given that at their peak they had 60k when the Soviets had 90k in 1941. If you'd like to look at percentages, 60k out of the Afghan population of 35 Million is 0.001% of the population which, if applied to the Soviet population of 180 Million leads to.....180,000
Wow never thought I'd be correcting someone's math on this forum.

60,000/35,000,000=0.00171428571

180,000,000*0.00171428571=308,571.4278

~309,000 is quite a bit more than 180,000.

Next, the 60,000 number is from 2014, when Afghanistan had a total population of 32.8 million (and that's not considering that more than 3 million of whom live outside of Afghanistan).

60,000/32,800,000=0.00182926829

180,000,000*0.00182926829=329,268.2922

So no, more like 329,000.

Now to posit an alternative measuring stick to the Taliban (who notably have a particularly divisive ideology and are associated with a non-majority ethnic group). Yugoslav Partisan strength in late 1942 was around 135,000. The Kingdom of Yugoslavia had a prewar population of around 14,000,000.

135,000/14,000,000=0.00964285714

180,000,000/0.00964285714=1,735,714.2852

That's a lot of partisans!

They don't have the technology because the Nazis don't have time machine.
Meaning they aren't going to get drones, kevlar body armour, and modern medicine anytime soon to help mitigate losses.

As it is, they have more they have better technology for the time and their own industrial base from which to support it.
And any support for anti-partisan operations in the east is support that isn't going towards fighting the west.

the horror of them using 9 and 90 year olds as cannon fodder.
As opposed to being worked to death as German slave labour?

The lowest estimate I've seen is 400,000
And that number is laughable. Germans had around 500,000 men in the General Government at any time in the war. 500,000 men for a portion of the rather divided Polish resistance.

there simply is no way a few hundred thousand partisans is going to hold down millions of Germans like millions of Red Army soldiers in mechanized formations did.
Railways and bridges don't guard themselves. Being absolutely massive, European Russia has quite a lot of those to guard. So it's a fallacy to assume that combat is the only thing capable of tying down soldiers.

the Soviet rump on the other side of the Urals is going to be in absolutely no condition to do anything to the Reich.
Initially sure, but after the western allies cripple the Luftwaffe and degrade Germany's industrial and transportation capabilities... Then the Wehrmacht units dispersed across European Russia start looking quite vulnerable to the vengeful Soviets.
 
You would also likely see US or British forces coming up through India or Iran to bolster the Russian Army. There probably would have to be a lot of infrastructure built in those areas but that is something the US does quite well. It has a lot of experience building railroads.
On that note, how would the supply situation look for the W.allies if they moved up to halt the Germans at the Caucuses?
 

marathag

Banned
On that note, how would the supply situation look for the W.allies if they moved up to halt the Germans at the Caucuses?

OTL
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Wow never thought I'd be correcting someone's math on this forum.

60,000/35,000,000=0.00171428571

180,000,000*0.00171428571=308,571.4278

~309,000 is quite a bit more than 180,000.

Next, the 60,000 number is from 2014, when Afghanistan had a total population of 32.8 million (and that's not considering that more than 3 million of whom live outside of Afghanistan).

60,000/32,800,000=0.00182926829

180,000,000*0.00182926829=329,268.2922

So no, more like 329,000.

Now to posit an alternative measuring stick to the Taliban (who notably have a particularly divisive ideology and are associated with a non-majority ethnic group). Yugoslav Partisan strength in late 1942 was around 135,000. The Kingdom of Yugoslavia had a prewar population of around 14,000,000.

135,000/14,000,000=0.00964285714

180,000,000/0.00964285714=1,735,714.2852

That's a lot of partisans!

.001*180,000,000 = 180,000

You'll have to forgive me for limiting myself to three decimal places instead of 11.

Regardless of that, if you're wanting to be so precise we're going to have to significantly trim your figure down, as the 180 Million is the Pre-War population of the USSR in its entirety. You've stipulated Ural borders, so that automatically cuts out:

Kazakhstan, with 6,195,000 (1940)
Tajikistan, with 1,489,000 (1940)
Turkmenistan, with 1,302,000 (1940)
Uzbekistan, with 6,430,000 (1940)
Kyrgyzstan, with 1,483,000 (1940)

I've had trouble finding population data for Siberia, with the best estimate I've found being 16,576,400 In 1938. This seems pretty accurate, given that equates to 15% of the RSFSR's population being in Siberia; the modern figure for the Russian Federation is 25%. If this isn't precise enough for you, you're welcome to try sorting through the Oblast Data. So, that's 33,475,400 removed from 180,000,000. Next, given what the Germans overrunning the USSR would entail, let's eliminate their OTL war losses of 26,600,000 from the total as a matter of simplicity; you can certainly argue deaths would be higher, but I'll leave that to you. So, finally, you get:

119,925,600 in the occupied USSR

You could argue this is still too high, as the 1937 census only found 162 million so the official Census was off and the 1940/1941 figures generally include the occupied areas in the Baltics, Poland, and such. For simplicity's sake, I'll again just stick to this figure.

119,925,600*0.00964285714 = 579,298

To put this further into perspective, a report to Stalin from September 1942 listed 11,055,700 on active service in the army, navy, NKVD forces that January. meanwhile according to Muller-Hillebrand on 1/07/42, German strength in the East was 2,847,000 men, not including SS and forces in Finland; adding those brings the total to just shy of 3.1 Million. So that's 3.56 Soviets to every German. Taking into account most of those partisans are untrained civilians equipped with whatever they can find, lack armor support, air support, logistics, coordination and a hell of a lot other things to say the least, don't overestimate them.

Meaning they aren't going to get drones, kevlar body armour, and modern medicine anytime soon to help mitigate losses.

Which aren't needed to win Anti-insurgency operations and never were. Given as outlined above as compared to what occurred IOTL, German losses in the occupation in the East will be negligible.

And any support for anti-partisan operations in the east is support that isn't going towards fighting the west.

More than made up for by the reduction of forces in theater by at least 1.5 Million and the massively reduced overall logistical burden. It's simply impossible for civilians hiding in the woods taking potshots at Germans to equal the strain facing 10 million Soviets in mechanized formations did to said Germans.

As opposed to being worked to death as German slave labour?

You're welcome to cite anywhere I suggested that was preferable. The point being that, in either case, they're no help to the partisans.

And that number is laughable. Germans had around 500,000 men in the General Government at any time in the war. 500,000 men for a portion of the rather divided Polish resistance.

I would like to see a citation of this 500,000 number, especially with specifics, given that we both know, if there was that many, they were mostly rear service personnel maintaining the rail logistics of the forces in European Russia.

Railways and bridges don't guard themselves. Being absolutely massive, European Russia has quite a lot of those to guard. So it's a fallacy to assume that combat is the only thing capable of tying down soldiers.

Sure, but they don't have to guard all ground nor are the partisans going to be in a position to do a whole lot of what you suggest. To put this into perspective, in the buildup to Bagration Moscow was inserting Partisans into the German rear where they joined up with existing forces and then proceeded to, in a coordinated manner, place thousands of charges on the German railway network. What happened? They, at best, shutdown rail traffic.....for about a day. Take in note, this was with organized, trained cadres directed and supplied by Moscow taking part.

Initially sure, but after the western allies cripple the Luftwaffe and degrade Germany's industrial and transportation capabilities... Then the Wehrmacht units dispersed across European Russia start looking quite vulnerable to the vengeful Soviets.

Those Soviets at best will never be in a position to do so and at worst won't even exist to take advantage of that. The Asian USSR lacks the industry, population and agricultural depth to supply any sort of offensive and it's honestly up in the air whether the Soviet state could even survive being confined to such an area even without considering offensive operations.
 
You'll have to forgive me for limiting myself to three decimal places instead of 11.
You are the only person I know who would round down from 7.

119,925,600*0.00964285714 = 579,298
Still a pretty big number, and it can certainly be bigger, for instance plugging in the Yugoslav partisan strength for late 1943.
329,000/14,000,000=0.0235
119,925,600*0.0235=2,818,251.6

So now we're back to "that's a lot of partisans"

Taking into account most of those partisans are untrained civilians equipped with whatever they can find, lack armor support, air support, logistics, coordination and a hell of a lot other things to say the least, don't overestimate them.
How much support do you think is needed to place a a landmine on a railway track?

Given as outlined above as compared to what occurred IOTL, German losses in the occupation in the East will be negligible.
Irrelevant, it is commitment that matters. Even going with a million Germans that's quite the asset sink.

It's simply impossible for civilians hiding in the woods taking potshots at Germans to equal the strain facing 10 million Soviets in mechanized formations did to said Germans.
Again with your obsession with combat being the only thing capable of tying down troops.

You're welcome to cite anywhere I suggested that was preferable.
You're welcome to cite anywhere I suggested that you suggested that was preferable. I was merely pointing out that nazi occupation tends to be tragic by default.

I would like to see a citation of this 500,000 number, especially with specifics, given that we both know, if there was that many, they were mostly rear service personnel maintaining the rail logistics of the forces in European Russia.
It's wikipedia so if you have a source contradicting it I'm entirely willing to stand corrected, but yeah, a low of 350,000 in early 1942 and a high (excluding special circumstance such as the build up to Barbarossa, and such) of 620,000 in late 1943 admittedly not quite 500,000 at any given time but still quite the personal sink.

Sure, but they don't have to guard all ground
Yes I imagine they wouldn't place much value in anything not connected to a rail line or navigable water way.

They, at best, shutdown rail traffic.....for about a day.
Mind you that is of course with the engineering personal and labour battalions attached to a 2.5 million man army. With enough labourers, the damage of a thousand charges takes just as long as repairing the damage of a single charge.

The Asian USSR lacks the industry, population and agricultural depth to supply any sort of offensive
If we assume that part of the USSR collapse in TTL included the Soviets not evacuating their factories to the east then that is the case in terms of industry. In terms of population it has 33,475,400, that's not a lot, but it's certainly large enough to raise an army from should Stalin or his successor be able to maintain some semblance of order. For agricultural depth, closest I can find for it is 16% of Russia's grain production in 1900, using your numbers Siberia would account for about 18.6% of the USSR's population so I assume it could probably feed itself and produce a surplus for the army.

Anyways, what matters is what the Germans think the Soviets are capable of, between Germany's lacklustre intelligence wing and a bit of maskirovka, the Germans could very well end up preparing counter measures for a paper tiger.

it's honestly up in the air whether the Soviet state could even survive being confined to such an area even without considering offensive operations.
I won't contest that.
 

elkarlo

Banned
Well, sure, let’s say the Allies can’t contest the reinforcements when they happen. That just means that the Germans just sent their forces to a bunch of oitrlying islands which will become isolated, cut off, and destroyed as soon as the allies have properly ramped up. Which, really, is inevitable, unless the Germans can somehow outproduce the allies on sea and in the air. Reinforcing the place just means the Nazis will lose more stuff along with the territories in question.
But the Germans had forces on many islands. Even the ones in the Aegean sea where the British tried to size them. The Wallies never were able to cut off the Germans from supply like they did to the Japanese. And that is with the Germans massively distracted. A lot of the med islands are more than self sufficient food wise, which unlike the distant Pacific Islands makes for an easier supply situation. The Wallies didn't do it OTL, I doubt they coukd so easily do it here. Esp with a LW that would be able to contest the skies . The Wallies wouldn't have air superiority, they'd have supreme control with it being contested to a great deal. Look at the damage the few bombers did to the Wallies at Sicily, and that's without the LW existing on that island at the time
 
@elkarlo : Could the Axis not only reinforce but supply all sort of islands in the Med. You can do anything if you direct enough effort. The main point of this thread is that the Germans get a bonus of manpower and materiel from no eastern front. I think most everyone agrees that actual resource extraction from occupied Russia will be pretty minimal for a significant amount of time. You can argue about the amount of the bonus, as occupying, policing, and reconstructing infrastructure is going to require manpower and materiel. What is not subject to argument is the reality that troops sent to Crete, or Sardinia, or the various Aegean Islands are not going to go to France. Luftwaffe aircraft in Greece or on islands are not defending the Reich against Allied bombing raids. Aviation fuel used by the Luftwaffe in aid of those efforts, as well as stocks maintained on all those spots is not being used to train new pilots, diesel fuel used to send supply ships to all those ships is not being used for U-boat patrols.

No matter what the Germans do, if the Allies, in the context of delaying OVERLORD, want Crete, Sardinia, etc they can get them and at an acceptable cost. To the extent the Germans waste their bonus on building the "Corsican Wall" at the expense of the "Atlantic Wall" the Allies will most assuredly applaud. Patton's "army", Operation MINCEMEAT, and similar efforts were all about forcing the Germans to divert limited resources to areas where the Allies were not going to attack. The problem for the Axis is that the Allies can attack where they want when they want, and the Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe can't prevent it. Like the Japanese on any given island in the Pacific, they can make the land campaign expensive, but they simply cannot defend their periphery adequately to prevent the landings, and even i cases of significant Allied dumbass like Anzio, driving them in to the sea is a long chance.
 
But the Germans had forces on many islands. Even the ones in the Aegean sea where the British tried to size them. The Wallies never were able to cut off the Germans from supply like they did to the Japanese. And that is with the Germans massively distracted. A lot of the med islands are more than self sufficient food wise, which unlike the distant Pacific Islands makes for an easier supply situation. The Wallies didn't do it OTL, I doubt they coukd so easily do it here. Esp with a LW that would be able to contest the skies . The Wallies wouldn't have air superiority, they'd have supreme control with it being contested to a great deal. Look at the damage the few bombers did to the Wallies at Sicily, and that's without the LW existing on that island at the time

Well, yes, obviously the allies would take heavier losses than they did OTL if the Germans shifted more forces to these islands, but, well, so would the Germans. It certainly seems quite silly to assume that while the Germans move more troops to these territories, the Allies cannot make their own plans accordingly, but instead continue to execute their invasions exactly as they did in real life. For example, Sicily aside, most of the mentioned territories were completed as total sideshows(Corsica basically being left to the Free French, the Dodecanese to the British). But this would no longer be the case. If the Germans spend time building up their forces in these islands, the Allies will just dedicate more troops to them in turn, because the Allies have far more men and material than the Germans can draw upon, and depending on when the invasions in question take place ITTL, everything sent into Normandy would be available on other fronts now. And the fact remains, that everything the Germans are dedicating to defending these areas means that there is less to protect their other territories. This is simply not a game which the Nazis can come out ahead in.
 

marathag

Banned
If USSR surrender the war are over, and no allied wunderwaffe will change that.

Truth is, Greater Germany has no way to get the UK, let alone the USA to sue for peace. So war goes on, with the Germans tied up in endless insurrection West of the Urals, while the USA mass produces atomic bombs with B-36 to carry them.
 
The nuclear annihilation of most major cities in the Reich might have a small impact on the war.

Yes I’m sure that the allied discovery of a teleporter would be a game changer/s. The problem here is that people seem to unable to get that a Germany not dealing with USSR would change military, research and industrial focus toward a greater defense against bombings, because well do-oh. Next there’s the problem with a bomber with a nuclear bomb being shoot down with a unexploded nuclear bomb onboard. In fact the fear of that happening would be a major argument in Washington against the incredible stupid slow drop of nuclear weapons people suggest. There was a reason that USA and USSR developed the nuclear doctrines they did, that’s because it’s the one which makes sense. What people suggest are using nuclear weapons following WWII bombing doctrine, which completely failed in OTL, the Blitz didn’t make U.K. surrender and Germany wasn’t defeated by Bomber Harris, instead it was defeated by armies marching through Germany.

In OTL the nuclear bombing of Japan worked, because Japan had already lost before the bombing.
 
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