WI the Scandinavian colony Vinland didn't fail
- Thread starter danteheadman
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danteheadman
Banned
I don't think that the Scandinavians specialized to that extent. At the very minimum, everyone would know how to build ships. More advanced shipbuilding technology is enough to create a cascade effect in the region - if that tech spreads to the natives. And the Scandinavians (and the native North Americans) had robust oral traditions. Knowledge could be effectively retained for at least a few generations that way. If just one or two people with that knowledge survive long enough to teach the next generation, it won't die out.
Sorry to say this, but that sounds to me like a misconception that comes from the stereotype that every Norse was a Viking and a misconception that shipbuilding is something easy, I would say that everyone would have rough knowledge about agriculture and animal husbandry, but not about the carpentry needed to make a longship. BTW, we had many examples of shipwrecked sailors in the 15th and 16th century that were found by native peoples and ultimately changed nothing in their ways of living.
As I said before, the best way to give them reason to start a colony would be through a sponsor.
As @bernardz said:
And as @FillyofDelphi said, they are going to make zero waves in the native culture and tech.
I gave you what you need to make a surviving Vinland:
Let me change it a little, the three thing that they need are:
1 - Help in the first years.
2 - Safety from or peace with the natives.
3 - Become self-sufficient.
How might later European explorers react to the descendants of Norse Greenlanders(or Norse in general) as a society having lost many important technolgies?
Which technologies would be most likely to survive? Which would be most likely to fade from collective memory?
Keeping their technology is why I assume that Vinland would have remained in regular contact with Greenland, and through that Iceland and Norway, for several centuries before losing contact. Vinland settlements would have probably been based around building ships for Greenland, with any farming or fishing communities merely to be supporting the lumber and shipbuilding industry. Iron tools probably come from either Greenland, at first, or maybe even from Iceland or Norway. It's probably only later as the Vinland population grows that blacksmiths start coming from Greenland.
A Vinland that still has some cultural Norse characteristics requires a semi-consistent source of contact with Greenland and other Norse settlements. Probably until 1400~. At that point Vinland would have a local history, it would have worked out its relations with natives, they'd know the region and be able to pass that alone by word of mouth, they'd have centuries old villages, etc. It would be stable enough to potentially last it out the 150~ years till contact is reestablished.
A Vinland that still has some cultural Norse characteristics requires a semi-consistent source of contact with Greenland and other Norse settlements. Probably until 1400~. At that point Vinland would have a local history, it would have worked out its relations with natives, they'd know the region and be able to pass that alone by word of mouth, they'd have centuries old villages, etc. It would be stable enough to potentially last it out the 150~ years till contact is reestablished.
FillyofDelphi
Banned
On the first point, depending on how long ago the seperation occurs they very well couldent be recognized as such, phenotypically at least. There'd be too much Amerindin admixture, and I imagine there's going to be some debate as to weather the vestigle sporadic showings of traits like, say, blonde hair are the result of actual "ancient ancestors coming on great wooden dragons that road the wind" (something to that effect, as their oral traditions will say), or it's some oddity and their origin myths are just folktales like those of the other groups around them. Certainly, there might be some Runestones and such as artifacts, but dissenters will likely claim they were fake in an age before we have the genetic and archelogical tools to stumble on the truth.
At which point, I expect some weird fringe cultural movements to show up along with a bump in Scandinavian pride. Maybe it even had some effect on the racial dimensions of some social conflicts.
As for techniques, things they'd be able to broadly and easily practice with what was within arms reach, or could be integrated into native systems, are the most likely to stay around without the Norse staying together and providing some system of redundancy, apprenticeship, and support. Mending and making cloth, sail usage (if the ships will have one skill in abundence, it's sailing), cooking and food preservation techniques like cheesemaking (Though how useful that is in a lactose intolerant continent is debatable), brewing, routine kinds of woodworking and tinkering that farmers would know for tool maintenance, and maybe a few other things. These would be divergent from the "normal" techniques pretty early on though as groups improvise to make things work with the material they have available and try to fill in gaps in knowledge via experimenting. Some may stumble on a method that works, and perpetuate that even if they don't understand the why behind it, and I imagine it would be highly restricted in its practice
And are they Pagan or Christian ? Greenlandes only converted, after missionaries reached them.
SwampTiger
Banned
The period of turmoil at the ascent of Olaf Tryggvason and his strong arm conversion of Norway to Christianity would be a time for a wealthy pagan family to flee westward with their supporters and various wayward pagans. Flight to Iceland would be fairly normal at this time. After a few years in Iceland, seeing the coming conversion of the island, these refugees decide upon Vinland as a better homeland.
Many farmers in these times were fairly self-sufficient in carpentry and metalworking. Shipbuilding and stonework were specialized craft skills. The area of Trondheim was a strong shipbuilding and trading area. A group from this area could easily support a reasonably sized colony. Note the various settlement attempts IOTL were rather small and poorly supported. They had roots in Iceland and Greenland. I have found various numbers of men in these groups from 30 to 160. Personally, I doubt the 160 number, and think the largest force was closer to 100. Various estimates of the native population of Newfoundland between 1500 C.E. to 1900 C.E. ran from 500 to 2000. Hardly a great threat to 160 male adult Norse!.
I see no reason for a substantial loss to technological knowledge if a reasonable settlement is established. They need to start with women and children among 200 or more settlers the first summer.
Many farmers in these times were fairly self-sufficient in carpentry and metalworking. Shipbuilding and stonework were specialized craft skills. The area of Trondheim was a strong shipbuilding and trading area. A group from this area could easily support a reasonably sized colony. Note the various settlement attempts IOTL were rather small and poorly supported. They had roots in Iceland and Greenland. I have found various numbers of men in these groups from 30 to 160. Personally, I doubt the 160 number, and think the largest force was closer to 100. Various estimates of the native population of Newfoundland between 1500 C.E. to 1900 C.E. ran from 500 to 2000. Hardly a great threat to 160 male adult Norse!.
I see no reason for a substantial loss to technological knowledge if a reasonable settlement is established. They need to start with women and children among 200 or more settlers the first summer.
OTL, we would we would need to know how religion was practiced, percieved and what beliefs the population had.
ATL, we could lead up to different scenarios. Perhaps the Vinlanders could preserve catholicism with minimal changes untill they meet European explorers? Or their understanding and practive could be radically changed. Maybe mixed in with Norse, Celtic and Amerindian mythology?
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FillyofDelphi
Banned
If we're assuming Greenland and Iceland is their contact and touchstone for Nordic cultural influences, given their penchant for collective self-government and isolation from Roman updates, to say nothing of the cultural influence of tailoring messages so the natives understand and are arrtracted to them and the other parent in mixed race couples treach their lessons Vinland Christianity (if the locals stay Christian and don't go polythistic/animist) is likely to end up looking rather Protestant, or at least more along the lines of a "Indian Voodoo" with local spiritual figures blended with saints and a smattering of Aisr. I'm not an expert on St. Lawrence area native spiritual practices, but I imagine there'd be parralles that's be seized onto.
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We know the natives in America confronted by the Spanish rapidly adopted Spanish building practices, technology and Western fighting methods. I find it hard to believe that the natives in the area would not look at the Vinland people, see the better building, see better technology and see their fighting methods and not make changes to their building, technology and fighting methods.
Also, the Viking need slaves and labours, natives are a good source.
Also Vikings men like young attractive women, natives have many of these and I see no problem with interbreeding with the locals. Plus I am sure the natives would like young white pretty women.
Over 100s of years, there will be much mixing.
We know the natives in America confronted by the Spanish rapidly adopted Spanish building practices, technology and Western fighting methods. I find it hard to believe that the natives in the area would not look at the Vinland people, see the better building, see better technology and see their fighting methods and not make changes to their building, technology and fighting methods.
Also, the Viking need slaves and labours, natives are a good source.
Also Vikings men like young attractive women, natives have many of these and I see no problem with interbreeding with the locals. Plus I am sure the natives would like young white pretty women.
Over 100s of years, there will be much mixing.
Will the Vinlanders continue to speak a Germanic language? Or will it be an Inuit language with a Germanic substrate?
Yes, but the Spanish made settlements in America that kept contact with the motherland, they were not just a bunch of shipwrecked people scatered around the coast of the New World.
What does a medieval norse longhouse has that is so much better than a native longhouse?
So, what? I keep what I said, some tens or even a few hundred people are not going to make any difference in the genetic pool or culture of the natives.
If Newfoundland had population of between 200-500-2000 people then a few hundred people could certainly be a great influence on the gene pool of the island.
Words for concepts, objects, actions, etc that only existed in one of the languages may likely be adopted by the other language community.
Hundreds, ok, but it will be a miracle if a few tens survive in the scenario that you made.
At the start they could have around one and a half hundred people, but some ships sink, some go back and those that get there are scatered, which means that they are going to be scattered shipwreckers instead of settlers, and it would be already hard enough to be a settler in normal conditions, the result is that most of them are going to die.
They were more than just shipwrecked, in any case I do not think it matters for example as scattered travellers have frequently spread technology too far away places
There is heaps of technology they could bring eg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_technology
In military science "a shield wall" with improved bows would bring a dramatic improvement in the natives fighting ability.
Absolutely in such a small communities over hundreds of years, it would slowly turn them from being European to being native.
I think your figures are a bit on the low side.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_colonization_of_North_America
Greenland has around 2,000–3,000, Vinland initially had In 1009, had 160 men to 250. These seemed to have landed.
If we are going to assume a working colony, I think we can assume that the Vikings could put at least a few thousand people in their colony.
Despite the difficulties carrying horses, Iceland famously has Iceland horses since Settlement - and Norse Greenland, though smaller, had horses as well.
There would be Vinland horses.
Potatoes I agree would take long. Corn is another matter.
Perhaps if St. Olav is butterflied the christianization of Norway goes rougher, leading to larger possible immigrant pool.
Honestly trade with Europe seems like a nonstarter. What you need is simply to get enough norse to Vinland that they can survive on their own.
Honestly trade with Europe seems like a nonstarter. What you need is simply to get enough norse to Vinland that they can survive on their own.