How would this change history? The three biggest changes that I can see are:
  1. Native American depopulation from European diseases happens circ. 1000 CE, centuries before OTL European colonization of the Americas happens, which enables the native Americans to rebound and better resist those diseases when colonization does happen.
  2. Europe is aware of the western continent much, much earlier. No idea the implications.
  3. Native Americans and Scandinavians develop better trading ties, spreading animals and technology Westward. No idea the implications.
 
The colony can survive only if Vinland's dice roll repeatedly 20s because it has nothing that Europe wants and it is too hard and dangerous to get there. One possibility is to Vinland sell timber to Greenland and Greenland sell ivory to Europe, but this scheme is too hard, and the travel too long and dangerous, it is not profitable. About the natives, the only thing that the Norse have to trade is metal tools, and that's something that the Vinlanders can't give away. So, the path to Vinland surviving is:

1 - Find a marvelous sponsor.
2 - Subjugate the natives of the area.
3 - Find iron deposits.
4 - Become self-sufficient in food and materials.

Even then, they are probably going to be cut off from Europe when Greenland is abandoned, as the voyage from Iceland to Vinland will probably be too risky and the really nasty diseases are not going to reach Vinland. Why? Because they need to get through Greenland and Iceland first and those places have small populations that don't let the disease become endemic. But they could show the natives how to make iron, ships, and maybe animal husbandry, and introduce some feudalism and christianism too.
 
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The colony can survive only if Vinland's dice roll repeatedly 20s because it has nothing that Europe wants and it is too hard and dangerous to get there. One possibility is to Vinland sell timber to Greenland and Greenland sell ivory to Europe, but this scheme is too hard, and the travel too long and dangerous, it is not profitable. About the natives, the only thing that the Norse have to trade is metal tools, and that's something that the Vinlanders can't give away. So, the path to Vinland surviving is:

1 - Find a marvelous sponsor.
2 - Subjugate the natives of the area.
3 - Find iron deposits.
4 - Become self-sufficient in food and materials.

Even then, they are probably going to be cut off from Europe when Greenland is abandoned, as the voyage from Iceland to Vinland will probably be too risky and the really nasty diseases are not going to reach Vinland because to reach there before Greenland falls. Why? Because they need to get through Greenland and Iceland first and those places have small populations that don't let the disease become endemic. But they could show the natives how to make iron, ships, and maybe animal husbandry, and introduce some feudalism and christianism too.

The only reason Greenland was abandoned in the first place was because it was unprofitable. Vinland, in this timeline, would most certainly be more than profitable enough to make up for this (Newfoundland has a lot more natural resources), and thus Greenland probably wouldn't be abandoned.
 
Tend to agree that Vinland was just too far with the sailing technology available at the time. It might not die, but it probably wouldn't grow. The more likely scenario is that a surviving Vinland would focus on fishing the Grand Banks to support a local populace, while a large seasonal occupation being logging to provide timber to Greenland. A Vinland-Greenland shipbuilding program would allow easier contact between Greenland-Iceland-Norway, potentially preventing the gradual collapse that lead to Greenland failing mid-15th century.

The real differences would probably start in OTL colonization period, once sailing technology has improved enough to allow a direct Norway-Vinland route. If Vinland is still struggling along and is semi-connected to Scandinavia, then you'd probably see that colony receive a boost as early Christian II in the 1520's. Considering in OTL the actual permanent European settlements only really started after 1600, that alone is a huge advantage. The locals would also by necessity know the surrounding waters, and natives. If Vinland died, it still provides a claim by Norway (or Denmark-Norway) to the New World. It would really have an affect as this might mean that rather than repeated failed expeditions to Greenland, Denmark-Norway would be aiming for a more southern Vinland. Considering how silly some of the beliefs of early explorers were, an English explorer thought the Hudson River was the Northwest Passage, Norwegian/Danish explorers sent by Christian IV could land in OTL New York and declare it Vinland. Not sure whether it would change anything with more populous and powerful Netherlands/England/France developing colonies around this time, but it would be something to give Denmark-Norway a chance.

So the way I see it, a flourishing Vinland that leads to easy Norse North America is bordering ASB 1000-1500. Maybe possible, but would be extremely unlikely. You'd need massive luck.
A surviving Greenland-Vinland that remains connected to Iceland-Norway is possible, but would still be unlikely.
A surviving Vinland that is isolated to Iceland-Norway is even more likely. Greenland dies over time like OTL, but some of its settlers go to a Vinland that is still holding on and is having a less hard time. The loss of Greenland almost certainly leads to Vinland becoming disconnected with Iceland-Norway. Vinland to survive likely has grown to a population of ~20,000, and is probably focused around the Gulf of St. Lawrence while trading with natives.
A dead Vinland that however did exist similar to Greenland between 1000-1450 is almost certainly the most likely except OTL failure immediately.

A dead Vinland would probably lead to a New Vinland between 1520-1620, with the earlier the more likely it is to survive and not become another New Sweden (prestige project ultimately ignored and then annexed without a fight by more populous colonies).
A surviving but isolated Vinland is probably contacted by early explorers of numerous nations, but Denmark-Norway is likely to have the best luck in negotiations with them due to language and semi-similar culture (these Vinlanders have probably gone native to some degree). This Vinland probably becomes a protectorate/colony, but with significant privileges and/or self-governance as early there's no way a single explorer ship or two is overrunning a Vinland people probably numbering several ten thousand. This is actually the scenario I'd go for. A stable populace would provide a base for Norse colonization, but a Norse population isolated and interacting with natives would be very interesting to explore. Then having these people negotiate with Denmark-Norway's explorers would be fascinating, as well as going into how their interactions work with Vinland's people regard to immigration from Europe, the policies with local natives, and the simple back and forth between Vinland's local leaders and Denmark-Norway's nobles and riksrad.
A Vinland-Greenland that survived and remained connected to Europe through trade would be when you start having noticeable effects on European culture. You might have maps of Vinland and its surroundings available in Europe, or at least rumors from word of mouth. This could greatly affect North American colonization as a whole. You might have had Christian missionaries there, and Norwegian politics might have been affected.
A flourishing Vinland colony, while the most popular in regards to Vinaldn TL's, is already stated as near ASB in my opinion. So I'll just leave that alone.

Now for the specific questions of this thread for more specifics.
  • Native American depopulation from European diseases happens circ. 1000 CE, centuries before OTL European colonization of the Americas happens, which enables the native Americans to rebound and better resist those diseases when colonization does happen.
  • Europe is aware of the western continent much, much earlier. No idea the implications.
  • Native Americans and Scandinavians develop better trading ties, spreading animals and technology Westward. No idea the implications.
1) I doubt anything but a thriving Vinland would be able to establish the trade networks to spread disease far and wide. So probably only the local peoples would be affected, and even then by not as much as the naval trips would probably kill the sick on the way over. Vinland itself meanwhile probably wouldn't have the population to really support regular epidemics. The biggest change might be the addition of cows, chicken, horses, and sheep that provide diseases.
2) In an isolated Vinland scenario, Europe could easily have little to no more knowledge. Even in a scenario where Vinland remains connected by trade, it might not make much of a difference. Not like much of Europe knew much about Greenland. There might be a few maps floating around, but I sort of doubt it.
3) Once again, I think it would only be around the St. Lawrence Gulf that most of the interaction would occur. At least directly. If the local natives traded (or stole) cows and chicken in 1000, they might be all over North America by 1500. The Norse weren't so much for horses though, especially as transporting them from Europe would be difficult. So probably no horses. You might see basic ironworking have developed around the St. Lawrence by natives, but probably only among those tribes that intermarried with the Vinlanders. I doubt the Vinlanders would have ventured far enough to get corn, and poteatoes are way too far unless you go the ASB level flourishing Vinland scenario. Not sure what other exchanges might happen.

Honestly, writing this only made me more heavily consider the isolated Vinland scenario. A multiracial, mixed-race, and multicultural web of cultures in the Gulf of St. Lawrence would be interesting alone, much less how they'd interact with early European explorers and colonization attempts. A Vinland civilization as a Danish protectorate as they weren't able to be fully subjugated and thus gained privileges would be fun.
 
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Iron, lead, copper, zinc, gold, timber, furs and lots of free land near flourishing fisheries. The Norse failed to discover the minerals in OTL.

Bulk shipping of base metals across the Atlantic would be laughably unprofitable in the pre-Industrial era. You have plentiful supplies of all these things in the Baltic trade basin (Which includes Russia and the Baltic states) already that can be gotten much more quickly and cheaply. Any merchant who tried to base their wealth on the proceeds of such a long and risky vouage would get undercut by the fellow who just stayed home.
 
Lumber, lots of lumber, mostly TBH. Still much better than Greenland.

Oh, ok. As I said in my first post, Vinland could trade timber with Greenland and Greenland could sell Ivory to Europe, which could sell tools to Greenland that could resell to Vinland, but that is not a reliable system, certainly is unprofitable in every way and because of that it could be maintained only if Vinland and Greenland find a rich sponsor, like a king or the Church. To make it profitable you need things that Europe can't get enough to satisfy itself like gold, silver, spices, sugar, dyes, silk...

Iron, lead, copper, zinc, gold, timber, furs and lots of free land near flourishing fisheries. The Norse failed to discover the minerals in OTL.

Most of these materials can't change the trade situation of Vinland because:

Bulk shipping of base metals across the Atlantic would be laughably unprofitable in the pre-Industrial era. You have plentiful supplies of all these things in the Baltic trade basin (Which includes Russia and the Baltic states) already that can be gotten much more quickly and cheaply. Any merchant who tried to base their wealth on the proceeds of such a long and risky vouage would get undercut by the fellow who just stayed home.

But[!] I need to say that in your list there are two things that could change the situation:

and

More the gold than the cooper obviously, as long as they could get those from the land with their level of technology and in enough quantities to make it profitable (note: very very high quantities for cooper).

The other things could make Vinland self-sufficient, but not profitable.
 
A surviving but isolated Vinland is probably contacted by early explorers of numerous nations, but Denmark-Norway is likely to have the best luck in negotiations with them due to language and semi-similar culture (these Vinlanders have probably gone native to some degree). This Vinland probably becomes a protectorate/colony, but with significant privileges and/or self-governance as early there's no way a single explorer ship or two is overrunning a Vinland people probably numbering several ten thousand. This is actually the scenario I'd go for. .

No guns, partly native unless they get them very soon they will be overrun particularly if they have gold.
 
No guns, partly native unless they get them very soon they will be overrun particularly if they have gold.
A surviving but isolated Vinland scenario is dependent on the Norse colony having grown over time from natural population growth, attracting natives, and attracting the people of Greenland to at least some degree. My estimate is that it would have to have 20-50,000 people at least. Probably at the higher end of that, as anything less is probably going to go completely native. This population would be spread out throughout the Gulf of St. Lawrence. These Norse settlers would have brought ironworking, and almost certainly a maritime culture. Even if they wouldn't be professional soldiers, they'd have medieval level weapons and armor.

Meanwhile the early explorers weren't exactly doing their expeditions on warships. John Cabot is thought to have had a smaller ship that only held 18-20 people on it when he first reached Newfoundland. Columbus had three ships, with only the biggest having four cannons and the all three ships together only having 80~ men. Permanent settlements only started around 1600, a hundred years later, and even then most of the activity in the Gulf of St. Lawrence area was either seasonal fishing villages that swelled in fishing season and fur trappers who typically traded with the natives. These groups rely on either the ambivalent nonviolence of the natives, or their outright cooperation. Even if a warship comes along, bombarding a port village for intimidation and occupying it won't be enough as for such a state to have an actual capital with enough symbolic value would mean that state was even more developed than stated above. It would be the fishermen and traders elsewhere who pay the price elsewhere.

Until its possible for the European states to send 500+ men to subdue the entire area permanently, any ironworking semi-organized state in that area would have local superiority. Till then they'd be doing more privateering actions which would only anger the natives, and as they natives have something of an 'in' with a European state would only encourage the protectorate status coming about. Also as they'd be interacting with those European fishermen, if the fishermen were even allowed to fish in their waters, it would be likely there'd be trade going on for decades. There was actually quite a lot of trade between early colonists and native Americans, it's just that the latter oftentimes would subsequently die off from disease.

I'm certainly not saying this Vinland couldn't or wouldn't be overrun eventually. Just that if there was a former Norwegian colony surviving, I really don't see Denmark-Norway ignoring what could be considered a potential foothold into the New World.
 
A surviving but isolated Vinland scenario is dependent on the Norse colony having grown over time from natural population growth, attracting natives, and attracting the people of Greenland to at least some degree. My estimate is that it would have to have 20-50,000 people at least. Probably at the higher end of that, as anything less is probably going to go completely native. This population would be spread out throughout the Gulf of St. Lawrence. These Norse settlers would have brought ironworking, and almost certainly a maritime culture. Even if they wouldn't be professional soldiers, they'd have medieval level weapons and armor.

You are assuming that the Norse natives are unified and organised. If so, I doubt that they would be so willing to allow themselves to be dominated willing by Denmark or Norway. There would be hundreds of years difference between these people by then, plus a local elite plus there would be religious issues which would be a major problem. The Norse may also have a native problem which was largely responsible for the fall of the Aztec Empire. If they depend on fishing and use the sea for trade then they are very vulnerable to the vastly better naval forces of the Europeans.

In 1530, Hernan Cortes army was about 500 so I think we can assume that the Europeans can if they want an expedition with your required number of people. We could then have an interesting battle, both sides have cavalry, steel weapons but only one has guns.
 
Lumber, lots of lumber, mostly TBH. Still much better than Greenland.

The Greenlanders went to Labrador every summer for 300 years to cut timbre for ship building. I’m not sure how you get them to want to try and colonize Vinland a second time, but they had plenty of opportunities.
 

SwampTiger

Banned
https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...western-hemisphere-512-to-the-present.447209/

I've been following the timeline above. The author, Rognvald, appears to be on a short hiatus. By starting earlier, and having additional population transfer from the Britons/Bretons plus a very recent appearance of Ostmen/Norse, European population is self sufficient. Still using bog iron, traded furs and some ivory initially. Then trade with the natives in iron. Usual dustups between various groups

I had considered a timeline where Norwegian refugees from the various struggles in the 10th century fled to Iceland. Hearing of Vinland, the leaders choose to continue onward. The real issue is supplying the fledgling colony for the first decade.

https://www.heritage.nf.ca/articles/economy/mining.php

This is a short history of mining in Newfoundland. Few colonists during the early days of any colony are out prospecting. Only someone with a sharp eye and knowledge of raw ore will have a reasonable chance at discovery.
 
Tend to agree that Vinland was just too far with the sailing technology available at the time. It might not die, but it probably wouldn't grow. The more likely scenario is that a surviving Vinland would focus on fishing the Grand Banks to support a local populace, while a large seasonal occupation being logging to provide timber to Greenland. A Vinland-Greenland shipbuilding program would allow easier contact between Greenland-Iceland-Norway, potentially preventing the gradual collapse that lead to Greenland failing mid-15th century.

The real differences would probably start in OTL colonization period, once sailing technology has improved enough to allow a direct Norway-Vinland route. If Vinland is still struggling along and is semi-connected to Scandinavia, then you'd probably see that colony receive a boost as early Christian II in the 1520's. Considering in OTL the actual permanent European settlements only really started after 1600, that alone is a huge advantage. The locals would also by necessity know the surrounding waters, and natives. If Vinland died, it still provides a claim by Norway (or Denmark-Norway) to the New World. It would really have an affect as this might mean that rather than repeated failed expeditions to Greenland, Denmark-Norway would be aiming for a more southern Vinland. Considering how silly some of the beliefs of early explorers were, an English explorer thought the Hudson River was the Northwest Passage, Norwegian/Danish explorers sent by Christian IV could land in OTL New York and declare it Vinland. Not sure whether it would change anything with more populous and powerful Netherlands/England/France developing colonies around this time, but it would be something to give Denmark-Norway a chance.

So the way I see it, a flourishing Vinland that leads to easy Norse North America is bordering ASB 1000-1500. Maybe possible, but would be extremely unlikely. You'd need massive luck.
A surviving Greenland-Vinland that remains connected to Iceland-Norway is possible, but would still be unlikely.
A surviving Vinland that is isolated to Iceland-Norway is even more likely. Greenland dies over time like OTL, but some of its settlers go to a Vinland that is still holding on and is having a less hard time. The loss of Greenland almost certainly leads to Vinland becoming disconnected with Iceland-Norway. Vinland to survive likely has grown to a population of ~20,000, and is probably focused around the Gulf of St. Lawrence while trading with natives.
A dead Vinland that however did exist similar to Greenland between 1000-1450 is almost certainly the most likely except OTL failure immediately.

A dead Vinland would probably lead to a New Vinland between 1520-1620, with the earlier the more likely it is to survive and not become another New Sweden (prestige project ultimately ignored and then annexed without a fight by more populous colonies).
A surviving but isolated Vinland is probably contacted by early explorers of numerous nations, but Denmark-Norway is likely to have the best luck in negotiations with them due to language and semi-similar culture (these Vinlanders have probably gone native to some degree). This Vinland probably becomes a protectorate/colony, but with significant privileges and/or self-governance as early there's no way a single explorer ship or two is overrunning a Vinland people probably numbering several ten thousand. This is actually the scenario I'd go for. A stable populace would provide a base for Norse colonization, but a Norse population isolated and interacting with natives would be very interesting to explore. Then having these people negotiate with Denmark-Norway's explorers would be fascinating, as well as going into how their interactions work with Vinland's people regard to immigration from Europe, the policies with local natives, and the simple back and forth between Vinland's local leaders and Denmark-Norway's nobles and riksrad.
A Vinland-Greenland that survived and remained connected to Europe through trade would be when you start having noticeable effects on European culture. You might have maps of Vinland and its surroundings available in Europe, or at least rumors from word of mouth. This could greatly affect North American colonization as a whole. You might have had Christian missionaries there, and Norwegian politics might have been affected.
A flourishing Vinland colony, while the most popular in regards to Vinaldn TL's, is already stated as near ASB in my opinion. So I'll just leave that alone.

Now for the specific questions of this thread for more specifics.

1) I doubt anything but a thriving Vinland would be able to establish the trade networks to spread disease far and wide. So probably only the local peoples would be affected, and even then by not as much as the naval trips would probably kill the sick on the way over. Vinland itself meanwhile probably wouldn't have the population to really support regular epidemics. The biggest change might be the addition of cows, chicken, horses, and sheep that provide diseases.
2) In an isolated Vinland scenario, Europe could easily have little to no more knowledge. Even in a scenario where Vinland remains connected by trade, it might not make much of a difference. Not like much of Europe knew much about Greenland. There might be a few maps floating around, but I sort of doubt it.
3) Once again, I think it would only be around the St. Lawrence Gulf that most of the interaction would occur. At least directly. If the local natives traded (or stole) cows and chicken in 1000, they might be all over North America by 1500. The Norse weren't so much for horses though, especially as transporting them from Europe would be difficult. So probably no horses. You might see basic ironworking have developed around the St. Lawrence by natives, but probably only among those tribes that intermarried with the Vinlanders. I doubt the Vinlanders would have ventured far enough to get corn, and poteatoes are way too far unless you go the ASB level flourishing Vinland scenario. Not sure what other exchanges might happen.

Honestly, writing this only made me more heavily consider the isolated Vinland scenario. A multiracial, mixed-race, and multicultural web of cultures in the Gulf of St. Lawrence would be interesting alone, much less how they'd interact with early European explorers and colonization attempts. A Vinland civilization as a Danish protectorate as they weren't able to be fully subjugated and thus gained privileges would be fun.
Perhaps we should have a Vinland thread where we can brainstorm ideas, link to sources, etc.
 
You are assuming that the Norse natives are unified and organised. If so, I doubt that they would be so willing to allow themselves to be dominated willing by Denmark or Norway. There would be hundreds of years difference between these people by then, plus a local elite plus there would be religious issues which would be a major problem. The Norse may also have a native problem which was largely responsible for the fall of the Aztec Empire. If they depend on fishing and use the sea for trade then they are very vulnerable to the vastly better naval forces of the Europeans.

In 1530, Hernan Cortes army was about 500 so I think we can assume that the Europeans can if they want an expedition with your required number of people. We could then have an interesting battle, both sides have cavalry, steel weapons but only one has guns.
Since the Norse to some extent would splinter in different factions, we could also see different strategies for survicing and thriving in North America. Some may be Christians, others may mix traditional European beliefs, Christianity and Amerindians beliefs. Some may intermarry others not. Some may adopt a hunter-gatherer lifestyle, others farming lifestyle and some urban lifestyles.
 
This can be that thread
Then a small 'brainstorm' will leave my mouth(or fingers).

Impetus for Norse Settlement of North America
For some reason a group of Greenlandic Norse settlers decide to head for Vinland. Some of the men(and perhaps women) are familiar with the trip to Vinland having sailed there before for collecting lumber(and potentially other resources).

The impetus could be religious conflict, adventurousness, social stress, economic stress, warring, etc or a combination of multiple factors(which is likely).
  • Religious Conflict: Christians being evicted or fleeing, Pagans(what is the paganism of these settlers like theologically or organizationwise), syncretic christian pagan relgion. A new religion preaching about a 'promised land' in Vinland could recruit settlers.
  • Social Stress: Some people could be excommunicated and therefore seek to leave or maybe even flee. A group could be excommunicated for their beliefs, or individuals that have been excommunicated could be joined by friends and family.
The trip
During the voyage to North America some of the ships may get seperated from other ships. Some ships may sink. The surviving ships could land at different locations. Maybe some groups would look for others? Some may also give up on Vinland and travel to Greenland and further east. This may lead to rumors of a failed expedition. Thus allowing for the memory of the Vinland settlers to weaken and/or dissapear. Will the settler groups that survive be determined to find other groups? Are they likely to succeed or fail? How could they go about it(the search for members of the expedition)? This may lead to different strategies for adapting to North America.

Maybe the trip could be smooth.
 
Since the Norse to some extent would splinter in different factions, we could also see different strategies for survicing and thriving in North America. Some may be Christians, others may mix traditional European beliefs, Christianity and Amerindians beliefs. Some may intermarry others not. Some may adopt a hunter-gatherer lifestyle, others farming lifestyle and some urban lifestyles.

They would go native. Soon some will dominate the natives too and so possibly we will see a Norse empire form or an Indian Empire with Norse technology. I doubt over hundreds of years that in 1500's they would have much in common with Denmark-Norway
 
They would go native. Soon some will dominate the natives too and so possibly we will see a Norse empire form or an Indian Empire with Norse technology. I doubt over hundreds of years that in 1500's they would have much in common with Denmark-Norway

This. There's a real question if Norse technology will even survive to the extent that it would be a norm: it's not as if every man on all the ships knows the techniques for locating, mining, refining, and foraging iron for example. And the guy who does has a good chance of not being literate and won't have a steady supply of raw material to practice his craft with. He gets rusty because you took too long to get a proper forage set up? Gets his hand burned in an accident? Catches a cold and the herbs you need to help him aren't native to the continent? Takes an arrow to the face? Than your village loses that skill. And given colonial death rates traditionally...
 
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