Well meaning but weak is worse than strong but evil? Or Why do you think military dictatorship would be better for germany. Get it?
How powerful would a Fascist Russia be?
- Thread starter Whiteshore
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BigBlueBox
Banned
Are you seriously trying to suggest that right-wing authoritarianism is the same thing as fascism?
Yes Yes rectangles are not all squares fallancy but unles there is type of right-wing authorianism you want to defend I dont see Why the distinction is important.
Can't say without knowing what the Fascist Russia's leadership is like and what institutions it established.
People just assume a fascist Russia wouldn't purge people or have a civil war that destroys a good chunk of the production of the country? Nazi Germany purged all the Jews and socialists from the country, let alone positions of power. Think of all the Jewish scientists that worked on the Soviet nuclear program. Fascist Russia might be just as cut off from the world economy as the USSR, too, depending on their policies and how they came into power. There's no guarantee they would continue the Tsarist modernization program, either. The fascist Russian regime could be agrarian like the Khmer Rouge or just economically incompetent and regard economic theory as "Jewish/English lies." They could be like Franco's Spain, which was fairly isolated and economically incompetent.
Of course they could be like Deng China, with an authoritarian political system, but very competent administration and foreign policy. This would be better than the USSR, as there were severe problems with Soviet economic policy, though the Soviet system had better long-term prospects than the Nazi system.
Of course they could be like Deng China, with an authoritarian political system, but very competent administration and foreign policy. This would be better than the USSR, as there were severe problems with Soviet economic policy, though the Soviet system had better long-term prospects than the Nazi system.
Obergruppenführer Smith
Banned
It could be argued that by clipping away the old, the end result was a Red Army that could ultimately adapt.
Mussolini I would imagine.
If fascism rose in Russia it would be something akin to Italian fascism or falangism not National Socialism.
Picture this, WWII is started between the Italian-Russian Axis and Nazi Germany after the Nazis invade Fascist Austria despite warning from the Axis that it would lead to war.
Or a WWII between a Communist Germany and a Fascist Russia for that matter.
The OP states that the form of fascism in Fascist Russia is something akin to a right-wing version of Stalinism.
If we label Poland as fascist, then we may as well label a bunch of other countries like Jiang Jieshi's China, Smetona's Lithuania, Ataturk's Turkey, Bonapartist France and similar countries as fascist as well.
No. Interwar Poland was a simple military dictatorship, and not even a totalitarian one at that. It even had somewhat free elections, although their validity is disputable, which already puts it a head above actual fascist countries like Italy.
What makes Mussolinis Italy, Hortys Hungary, Antonescus Romania "fascist" in distinction to the "dictatorships" you mentioned ?
And if you are at that : what distincts facist regimes (apart from the insane racism of Hitler) from Stalins reign ?
BooNZ
Banned
No. Towards the end of the 19th century Germany more-or-less achieved 100% literacy levels. In the 1897 census overall literacy within Imperial Russia was measured at 21%. I understand the literacy levels in the Russian army in 1913 was around 68% compared with literacy of around 80% in the French, German and British armies in the 1870s. In terms of literacy, Imperial Russia was demonstrably decades behind western Europe.
No. Imperial Russian literacy levels were in no way comparable to western Europe. In the early 20th Century Imperial Russia placed an emphasis on education, but in 1911 still less than half the school age Russian population received any formal education. I understand attendance had increased to around 60% by 1914, which suggests not only Siberians were missing out on an education.
Unless you are using 'alternative math', there is no way there were as many literate Russians as Germans (in absolute terms) at the start of the 20th century. Imperial Russia had about twice the total population of Imperial Germany, but I believe Germany still had a greater urban population.
No. In 1914 Russia was a substantially agrarian economy, supplemented with oil exports. Its limited industry was heavily dependent on protected government business, including the military and railways. In 1913 Russian manufactured exports totaled $44 million, compared to German manufactured exports totaling $1,615 million. Both had enjoyed similar % growth rates in the previous decades, so in absolute terms, Russia was being left further behind.
The Russian military was a threat to Germany in the same way the Kaiserliche Marine was a threat to the Royal navy - i.e it was not a threat at all, but an overstated excuse to reallocate military budgets. Not entirely dissimilar to the Cold War.
Mussolini's Italy had the distinction of being a totalitarian state and applying corporatist economics. As well as megalomaniac ambitions. I would hardly call Horthy's Hungary or Iron Guard Romania "fascist", to be fair - although they were close.
One more thing that fascist movements have in common that separates then from a milquetoast military dictatorship, or even Stalinism for that matter, is territorial irredentism and extreme nationalism. And the things I mentioned for Italy.
Poland was a nationalist state, but you can hardly call it "extreme" (of course, pretty much any kind of nationalism would look extreme to a Westerner...), it did not employ corporatist economics, it was not totalitarian, it did not go it's way to raise irredentist claims on it's neighbours (partially because they already fulfilled most of them, of course), and it had no imperialist ambitions. Hence, not fascist.
But myself, I don't really like calling fascism an "ideology" anyway, because it hardly was one - on a historical perspective, it was mainly just a political vehicle for Mussolini to gain power in Italy that went way too far. In such a perspective, the only "fascist" state was Italy, because "fascist" was just the name of Mussolini's party.
@Augenis THX 
First time I got a fair enough answer on this question, in that the distictive element against other totalitarian regimes is :
First time I got a fair enough answer on this question, in that the distictive element against other totalitarian regimes is :
- corporatist economy (at least as lip-service)
Yeah, but as I said, I hesitate to call fascism an "ideology" that a country can "adopt". It strikes me more as Mussolini's political vehicle and personal beliefs.@Augenis THX
First time I got a fair enough answer on this question, in that the distictive element against other totalitarian regimes is :
coupled with extreme/strong nationalism and irridentism (though these elements can be found in other ... "dictatorships" in different strenght also)
- corporatist economy (at least as lip-service)
@Augenis I am completly with you.
Nevertheless "Facsism" and "fascist" are words thrown around (not only on this board) as if they are well defined common places - what they are not (IMHO) - and "nailed" to any kind of regime/organisation/group/single men and women someone wants to condemn.
Nevertheless "Facsism" and "fascist" are words thrown around (not only on this board) as if they are well defined common places - what they are not (IMHO) - and "nailed" to any kind of regime/organisation/group/single men and women someone wants to condemn.
CaliGuy
Banned
What distinguishes Fascist regimes from Stalin's regime is that the former allowed private property whereas the latter didn't.
For what it's worth, it appears that the literacy rate in Imperial Russia might have risen to 41% by 1914:
http://isreview.org/issue/82/education-literacy-and-russian-revolution
"Nonetheless, by other measures, the literacy rate is higher. Nicholas Timasheff argued that “by 1914, the literacy level in Russia had risen to forty-one percent.”"
How exactly are you defining "urban population" here?
You are correct in regards to Russian industrialization; indeed, in 1913, on a per capita level, Germany was over four times more industrialized than Russia was:
https://books.google.com/books?id=v...a germany industrialization 1900 1913&f=false
Since Russia didn't have 4+ times as many people as Germany had during this time, Germany was also more industrialized than Russia in a general sense.
Aphrodite
Banned
On Russian Schooling, the best work in English is Russian Peasant Schools by Ben Eklof.
Education is one area that Nicholas disagreed strongly with his father. In 1894, total primary education spending (zemstvos and central government) is only around 11,000,000 rubles. By 1906 it had soared to 45,000,000 reaching 125,000,000 by 1914
School attendence rose rapidly- in 1910, about 46% of children 8-11 were attending school (65% of the boys and 30% of the girls). Only one fourth of zemstvos schools offered the fourth year in 1910 though this was rapidly increasing. The number of schools rose by 25% between 1910 nd the outbreak of the war. Universal male education, except for extreme rural areas had probably been achieved
We shouldn't overestimate the value of education, especially for girls. In the time period, and up until past WWII, hard physical labor was the rule for men. Women spent most of their time on cooking, laundry, sewing and child care. Sexist by our standards but the facts of life in a preindustrial society without birth control
No matter what form of government emerges in Russia, education is likely to soar as a means of employing disabled veterans
On industrial production:
We should tread carefully here. Germany engaged in far more foreign trade than Russia and any use of trade statistics is suspect. Russia didn't export much but also produced most of its own industrial goods. German numbers are distorted by using gross production numbers as Germany imported far more of her raw materials than Russia We also have to remember that we are talking about factory production and much of Russia's manufactured goods were made in the village. About twice as many Russians worked in village craft industries as factories
As for who was growing faster: pick your year From 1900, Germany grows about 50% faster than Russia. From 1907, Russia grows about 50% faster than Germany
Education is one area that Nicholas disagreed strongly with his father. In 1894, total primary education spending (zemstvos and central government) is only around 11,000,000 rubles. By 1906 it had soared to 45,000,000 reaching 125,000,000 by 1914
School attendence rose rapidly- in 1910, about 46% of children 8-11 were attending school (65% of the boys and 30% of the girls). Only one fourth of zemstvos schools offered the fourth year in 1910 though this was rapidly increasing. The number of schools rose by 25% between 1910 nd the outbreak of the war. Universal male education, except for extreme rural areas had probably been achieved
We shouldn't overestimate the value of education, especially for girls. In the time period, and up until past WWII, hard physical labor was the rule for men. Women spent most of their time on cooking, laundry, sewing and child care. Sexist by our standards but the facts of life in a preindustrial society without birth control
No matter what form of government emerges in Russia, education is likely to soar as a means of employing disabled veterans
On industrial production:
We should tread carefully here. Germany engaged in far more foreign trade than Russia and any use of trade statistics is suspect. Russia didn't export much but also produced most of its own industrial goods. German numbers are distorted by using gross production numbers as Germany imported far more of her raw materials than Russia We also have to remember that we are talking about factory production and much of Russia's manufactured goods were made in the village. About twice as many Russians worked in village craft industries as factories
As for who was growing faster: pick your year From 1900, Germany grows about 50% faster than Russia. From 1907, Russia grows about 50% faster than Germany
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