How Silent Fall the Cherry Blossoms

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i check my data again, If Sweden goes ahead with there Nuclear Program, under GNU or FS is called now.
the First bomb would be ready begin 1973, like the Indian one.
what would give the World-powers something to worry about

on FS economic, without borders and toll charge, product are more easy sell in Scandinavia. (And Yes Finland is part oft it)
there also the Marshall Plan, were allot more kickstart money goes the the Federation of Scandinavia, instead of Germany !

also one day the will find Ol and Gas in front of FS coast on North sea, what bring allot of money.
next to that company like Saab will become Global player in the aerospace,
and IKEA will same success in is TL as OTL, even better with very very cheap work force in Germany (OTL they produce there shelf in east Germany)
 
Science and technology...

One important consideration on the advance of science and technology is partly population based--but only partly. Tech requires scentists--and the more people, the deeper the pool of brilliant minds. But--many brilliant--or even just extremely smart--people don't get a chance to get the deucation they need to make a difference due to education, other opportunities, etc. (Only the most brilliant and motivated person growing up in, say, 1930's Appalachia, would be able to get the education needed to make that difference. So, if the Nordic nations have education available--and poor, but smart, people, can get to school, that will help them out. If science is a prestigious and well paid profession, that will get people to want to be in the field. (Just so long as it's not too high prestige, or you'll have PhD's that get their degree because daddy paid the board...)

As for fusion, it may be that there's a conceptual breakthrough lurking that the right scientist could find...I don't call that out to lunch...)
 
i check my data again, If Sweden goes ahead with there Nuclear Program, under GNU or FS is called now.
the First bomb would be ready begin 1973, like the Indian one.
what would give the World-powers something to worry about

on FS economic, without borders and toll charge, product are more easy sell in Scandinavia. (And Yes Finland is part oft it)
there also the Marshall Plan, were allot more kickstart money goes the the Federation of Scandinavia, instead of Germany !

also one day the will find Ol and Gas in front of FS coast on North sea, what bring allot of money.
next to that company like Saab will become Global player in the aerospace,
and IKEA will same success in is TL as OTL, even better with very very cheap work force in Germany (OTL they produce there shelf in east Germany)
From Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_Sweden said:
In 1954, the country built its first small research heavy water reactor. It was followed by two heavy water reactors: Ågesta, a small heat and power reactor in 1964, and Marviken which was finished but never operated, due to several safety issues.[2] Both were heavy water reactors, motivated by the option to use Swedish uranium without isotope enrichment. The option to use plutonium from power reactors was closed only in 1968 with the signing of the Non-Proliferation Treaty. The switch to light water reactors started a few years earlier with Oskarshamn 1.
Michel is even being conservative. Once you have designed your own reactor, you've probably got the ability to build a bomb, which is in many ways easier.

With 4 nations involved, it could move even faster. Norden could have had a bomb by ~68, without terribly pushing things. By ~64 if you push. IMO.


It's the manned spaceflight that's tough. Actually.

An unmanned program based on their IRBMs, like the British Blue Streak used for the first stage of Europa? Sure. A full up man-rated launcher? a lot tougher with that size economy. Half of Britain's remember. Even the EU/ESA has never yet launched a man into space, and they are MUCH bigger AND have a world class space program.


Even if Norden did, somehow, manage to pull together the money for it, they can't launch to the ISS from anywhere in Norden, without losing a LOT of throw weight. The ISS is at 51 degrees so that the Russians can launch from Baikonur, basically, and nowhere in Norden is that far south, right? Moreover, launching expendable rockets, you really need lots and lots of empty ocean or desert., and that'd be really tough on the continent. Launching from eastern Iceland would be OK, but that's even farther north - remember the Arctic Circle passes through Iceland.
 
Heh. If Denmark still owned what are now the US Virgin Islands (which they sold off in 1916, so that's way too early a PoD), that might almost work, although you have to carefully pick a launch site that didn't fly over another country.

Realistically, their best bet is probably to make a deal with Brazil, say, and build their launch site there.
 
Unfortunately, you have made an excellent point. Many do not consider Finland part of "Scandinavia" - reserving the term for the linguistically and ethnically related Danes, Swedes, Nowegians, and Icelanders but not Finns.

I've already expressed my questions about having Finland one of the founders of this union, but if it is included, why not just go with "Nordic Union"?
on FS economic, without borders and toll charge, product are more easy sell in Scandinavia. (And Yes Finland is part oft it)

What if Finland wasn't a founding member, and the Scandinavian Federation formed early on. Then later (fairly soon, I'd imagine) Finland joins and they rename to the Nordic Federation or something along those lines?

The same could be true about Iceland depending on the circumstances (depending on who you ask, some claim Scandinavia is only the 'big 3', and some claim it includes all of the Nordic countries.)

I still am interested in where this leaves Greenland. I just don't see the USA or Canada happy with Greenland becoming a possible base for nuclear-armed ships, aircraft, or missiles from a "neutral" powerblock that is not allied with NATO, something I think is almost inevitable if the GNU/FS is a nuclear power. Would this diplomatic problem possibly accelerate the independence of Greenland? A treaty on its demilitarization?
I imagine as Greenland is still wholly ruled by Denmark, they're part of the Federation, as would be any colonies/territories if the countries in the Federation had any (I don't count uninhabited rocks like Bouvet Island.) The US could object to it but there's not much they can do.
Likewise with the Faroe Islands (Unless they opt out like they did with the EU OTL.)

Heh. If Denmark still owned what are now the US Virgin Islands (which they sold off in 1916, so that's way too early a PoD), that might almost work, although you have to carefully pick a launch site that didn't fly over another country.

Realistically, their best bet is probably to make a deal with Brazil, say, and build their launch site there.
Or they could deal with some of the European powers who have equatorial colonies (and subsequently try to deal with the independent successor states.)
 
Even if Norden did, somehow, manage to pull together the money for it, they can't launch to the ISS from anywhere in Norden, without losing a LOT of throw weight. The ISS is at 51 degrees so that the Russians can launch from Baikonur, basically, and nowhere in Norden is that far south, right? Moreover, launching expendable rockets, you really need lots and lots of empty ocean or desert., and that'd be really tough on the continent. Launching from eastern Iceland would be OK, but that's even farther north - remember the Arctic Circle passes through Iceland.
The ISS is at 51 degrees IOTL. It could be at a higher inclination ITTL or even have a polar orbit.

Also, you could launch from Denmark over the Baltic, then turning over the White Sea, far northern Russia, and Siberia.
 
Deal with a South American or African nation...

They could lease (or even purchase) some land from a poor, equatorial, nation. Still, that does leave the problem of shipping things south...
 
I imagine as Greenland is still wholly ruled by Denmark, they're part of the Federation, as would be any colonies/territories if the countries in the Federation had any (I don't count uninhabited rocks like Bouvet Island.) The US could object to it but there's not much they can do.
Likewise with the Faroe Islands (Unless they opt out like they did with the EU OTL.)

There's a lot the US and Britain probably can and would do. In the cold war situation, I just don't see how the US, Canada, and Britain could allow the basing of nuclear weapons by a potentially hostile power (which any "unaligned" state is by definition) in Greenland. Well before the GNU or whatever it is called becomes a nuclear-armed state, I believe the Anglo-American powers would use their overwhelming post-war strength to force negotiation of a treaty that either demilitarizes Greenland or grants it independence. This might be offered in exchange for favorable deals with the GNU elsewhere, such as cession of southern-latitude sites for space launches and missile testing in Africa or the Pacific
 
There's a lot the US and Britain probably can and would do. In the cold war situation, I just don't see how the US, Canada, and Britain could allow the basing of nuclear weapons by a potentially hostile power (which any "unaligned" state is by definition) in Greenland. Well before the GNU or whatever it is called becomes a nuclear-armed state, I believe the Anglo-American powers would use their overwhelming post-war strength to force negotiation of a treaty that either demilitarizes Greenland or grants it independence. This might be offered in exchange for favorable deals with the GNU elsewhere, such as cession of southern-latitude sites for space launches and missile testing in Africa or the Pacific

A neutral state is 'by definition hostile'?!?! Hunh?

NATO never perceived Sweden or Switzerland as hostile, why should they view Northern Federation as such?

Agreements to keep nukes away from Greenland, and possibly the Canadian arctic archipelago for balance, seem entirely plausible to smooth down ruffled feathers, but not really necessary imo.
 
I agree the US and the UK might not like it, and might try to use some diplomacy to get them to agree not to stage weapons/missiles there, but I don't think they'd be willing to declare war for it in the aftermath of this European war if the Nordic countries pushed the issue.

Then again, this might be kind of fun...
 

Geon

Donor
Germany Part 1

Okay here is the first part of the section on post war Germany which will be a long section. I hope you guys enjoy it. Trekchu-don't worry things get better for Germany later I promise!
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Germany:
Postwar: (1945-1952)
Unlike Japan, Germany never officially surrendered to the Allies. There was no one left in authority to surrender. Hitler had disappeared, Goering had disappeared, Himmler was dead, and Bormann was also missing. Too many of the Nazi hierarchy were unaccounted for which made the Allies from both in the West and East less then comfortable with their victory.

After the last surrender in June of 1945 the Allies immediately began to divide Germany into occupation zones. Russia would get eastern Germany while the British would occupy northern Germany, France would get the Saar industrial basin and the Americans would occupy the rest.

Several of the formerly occupied powers pressed territorial claims against the now humbled Germany. In response the Allied powers decided in 1947 that given Germany’s proclivity in the past for waging wars of aggression that they would implement a series of sanctions against the nation known as The Partition Sanctions. The sanctions would include the following.
The Netherlands would be allowed to annex the north eastern tip of Germany including the German port and naval base of Wilhelmshaven. Denmark would be awarded the territory in the north of Germany; Schleswig-Holstein, France would claim the entire Saarland and make it a department of France. These actions, to say the least infuriated a German people already humbled by the defeat of war. But it was the final action of the Partition Sanctions that truly created great animosity between Germans and their occupiers. Eight separate German republics were created by the Partition Sanctions. All of the new German republics were limited to security forces that could maintain internal peace and were also forced to put clauses in their constitutions which forbade any reunification with a greater Germany. This did not include East Germany which was placed under Soviet control. Most Germans had not committed any atrocities during the war, many had not voted for Hitler when he came to power, but now the Allies were punishing all of Germany for the sins of a few men. This bred great bitterness which was perfect breeding ground for Hitler’s Operation Phoenix.

Operation Phoenix:
Operation Phoenix began practically the moment the shooting ended. In key areas “Phoenix cells” were formed made up of a senior SS officer and loyal Hitler youth. Before he vanished, Hitler had given orders that the cell leaders’ records were to be completely destroyed so there would be no record of any Nazi affiliation. Not all the records were destroyed and this would give the Allies the opportunity to go after many of these cells later. Some of the cells would be “active,” and would engage in guerilla warfare against the occupying powers in both the West and the East. Other cells would be “passive,” they would blend back into the population, raise families and educate their young secretly on the theories of National Socialism and plant in the young the desire to see it rise again.
For both the “active” and “passive” cells the missing Fuehrer would become a near mythic symbol. Both were taught that Hitler had gone to a place where he would await his loyal followers and would from there lead them to rebuild a glorious Fourth Reich. Hitler would take on the aspects of a Germanic King Arthur.

The active cells began to operate within the first few weeks following the last surrender in Germany. Guerilla cells began to attack Allied supply areas, bivouacs, and generally ambush any allied soldier who they could catch alone. In addition any German who showed any inclinations to help the Allies was targeted for assassination. The purpose of this phase of Operation Phoenix was to make the Allied occupation of Germany a living hell and by the end of the year it seemed the Phoenix cells were succeeding admirably.

Response to the Phoenix cells’ activity varied. In the East the response was particularly brutal with whole villages and communities being arrested and deported to the gulags in Russia. The result was an acute manpower shortage in East Germany for many years which contributed to that nation being one of the poorest in the Warsaw Pact. In the West the British and Americans formed counter-guerilla groups to go after the Phoenix cells. These groups aided by informers and by counterintelligence groups slowly and painfully ferreted out the various Phoenix cells one by one. However, it seemed that for each cell that was eliminated another cell sprang into being. It soon became clear that there was some form of loose organization behind the Phoenix cells. But what this organization was Allied counterintelligence had yet to discover. Meantime by the end of 1946 the number of Western Allied soldiers killed in occupied Germany was 3,124 while in East Germany the number was over double that at 6,250.
 
Wow, 8 German states plus the annexation of large areas is a lot more than I expected, certainly isn't going to be a Wirtschaftwunder ITTL, probably isn't going to be a Marshall Plan on anything like the same scale. Especially if U.S./Soviet relations are better there won't be the imperative to rebuild West Germany as a counter to the Soviets. I'm just glad you've said it gets better for them as right now its pretty shitty!
 
A neutral state is 'by definition hostile'?!?! Hunh?

NATO never perceived Sweden or Switzerland as hostile, why should they view Northern Federation as such?

Agreements to keep nukes away from Greenland, and possibly the Canadian arctic archipelago for balance, seem entirely plausible to smooth down ruffled feathers, but not really necessary imo.

I said "potentially" hostile. The reason OTL NATO never perceived Sweden or Switzerland as a potential threat is that their militaries were strictly limited to defense of the homeland, and neither nation had major power pretensions. Plus, although S and S were neutral, NATO could be pretty confident that if the Cold War with with USSR ever went hot, neither of them would help the Russians, and if fact they might in effect serve as de facto allies because they would resist any Soviet thrusts into their territory.

The Nordic Federation in his TL is a very different thing. It is a large and wealthy power block that stretches from the Soviet Uniion in the East to Canada on the west. It has a large and modern deep water navy, nuclear weapons, a space program (and hence ballistic missiles), and is explicitly not allied with you. It could, if it so desired, directly threaten the US and Canada with attack and also interdict commerce between North America and the rest of NATO. War planners in the US and UK would be foolish not to consider risks associated with a potentially hostile GNU. And that main risk in my mind is Greenland. The minute the GNU initiates the development of atomic weapons, President Zoomar of the US would politely but firmly hand the GNU a draft treaty that permanently demilitarized Greenland in exchange for a NATO acceptance of the GNU's status as a nuclear power. Or else.
 
Wow, 8 German states plus the annexation of large areas is a lot more than I expected, certainly isn't going to be a Wirtschaftwunder ITTL, probably isn't going to be a Marshall Plan on anything like the same scale. Especially if U.S./Soviet relations are better there won't be the imperative to rebuild West Germany as a counter to the Soviets. I'm just glad you've said it gets better for them as right now its pretty shitty!

Worse than I expected also. A good reason to expect this TL's Cold War might not be quite as bad as OTL's at least with respect to Europe. I suppose the existence of the GNU plays its part as well. Nothing like common actual and potential threats to keep the US and Soviet perspectives regording Europe more line despite what's going on in Asia
 
I said "potentially" hostile. The reason OTL NATO never perceived Sweden or Switzerland as a potential threat is that their militaries were strictly limited to defense of the homeland, and neither nation had major power pretensions. Plus, although S and S were neutral, NATO could be pretty confident that if the Cold War with with USSR ever went hot, neither of them would help the Russians, and if fact they might in effect serve as de facto allies because they would resist any Soviet thrusts into their territory.

The Nordic Federation in his TL is a very different thing. It is a large and wealthy power block that stretches from the Soviet Uniion in the East to Canada on the west. It has a large and modern deep water navy, nuclear weapons, a space program (and hence ballistic missiles), and is explicitly not allied with you. It could, if it so desired, directly threaten the US and Canada with attack and also interdict commerce between North America and the rest of NATO. War planners in the US and UK would be foolish not to consider risks associated with a potentially hostile GNU. And that main risk in my mind is Greenland. The minute the GNU initiates the development of atomic weapons, President Zoomar of the US would politely but firmly hand the GNU a draft treaty that permanently demilitarized Greenland in exchange for a NATO acceptance of the GNU's status as a nuclear power. Or else.
The flaw in your argument being that the GNU/FS is also explicitly not allied with the USSR.

Also, they would reject out of hand any treaty even thinking about demilitarising Greenland. Or they would break it the moment they have weaponised nuclear devices, at which point the US can't complain, as it would be both political and literal suicide for them to take any course of action which would a) result in the nuclear destruction of US cities and b) possibly push the GNU/FS into signing treaties with the USSR.
 
Given the perception that over the last 50 years, (ITTL), Germany has been responsible for somewhere in the region of 15,000,000 deaths, attrocities without precedent, (until Stalin's gulags are known about), so splitting Germany probably makes a certain amount of sense.
 

Geon

Donor
Operation Phoenix Part 2

Here is part 2 of the German post war update. More will be coming tomorrow hopefully.
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From 1947 until 1952 the Allies in both East and West would be fighting what some would soon call the Phoenix War, named after the Phoenix cells. The active cells had trained for this day for months before the war. Their training included guerilla tactics. A cell could stay undercover for months or years before being activated. They then attacked Allied targets in the former Germany with brutal efficiency. Especially for the French, who during the War had one of the largest and most successful resistance movements in Nazi occupied Europe there was something unsettlingly familiar about the Phoenix tactics.

Phoenix cells planted bombs in Allied encampments and in newly occupied territories of the Allies; in addition every opportunity was made to make Allied occupation of the former German territories as costly as possible. One of the more notorious examples was the infamous “Hamburg Massacre,” where a British officers club in Hamburg was attacked by a Phoenix cell. Sixty five men (30 officers and 35 enlisted men) were killed in the attack and 215 injured. Similar horrific incidents occurred in all of the other occupied zones.

As indicated above reaction to the cells depended on whether you lived in the West or in the East. In the East of course there was brutality. However in the West the British and the American forces attempted a more surgical approach to removing the Phoenix cells. This approach involved a system of informers and counterespionage that would root out the cells. Special teams would then go in to remove the teams quickly and quietly before they could strike again.

The French were more vindictive in their approach. Whenever an attack occurred in the Saar region, now renamed Saare, the French after ascertaining where the perpetrators lived would deal with the Phoenix cell militarily and then would end up shipping anyone who lived in proximity of the cell’s members off to another area, sometimes in the British or U.S. sectors. Much to the anger of those displaced. For the French this was an opportunity to de-Germanize whole city blocks. Although they couldn’t know it the French were setting themselves up for big time trouble later.

All eight surviving German republics tried to aid the Allies in rounding up the Phoenix cells, but in at least three cases, notably the Lower Saxony, Bavaria, and Hessia, the leaders of these governments were assassinated within a year of taking office. Because of the continuing guerilla warfare and resentment over the Partition Sanctions the governments of the eight German republics in the West were not popular with the people who lived there for the most part. Added into this was the very slow pace of reconstruction caused by the guerilla conflict and that resentment often flared into violence on its own part independent of anything the Phoenix cells did.

By 1950 the Allies had finally learned of the existence of the main operative and leader of the Phoenix cells, a shadowy figure known simply as “The Shadow Man.” This individual moved from cell to cell rarely staying more then a few nights at most but being responsible for coordination and training of the various cells. There was speculation that “Shadow Man,” was actually Hitler or one of his missing cronies. The next two years would be a game of cat and mouse for the Allies trying to locate “Shadow Man.” Finally in 1952 on August 15th the mystery would be solved when during a shoot-out with a Phoenix cell that had just been discovered in Nuremburg the Americans would capture Martin Bormann, whom it was found was the legendary “Shadow Man.”

Bormann would be put on trial in the still ongoing “Nuremburg Trials,” and would be interrogated regarding the location of Adolf Hitler. However Bormann was nothing if not loyal. He steadfastly refused to give the Allies any information. Bormann’s trial was to be the last gasp of the active Phoenix cells. Four of the remaining cells gathered in Nuremburg a month after Bormann was captured and staged the infamous “Prison Raid” to try to free Bormann. The raid ended in the deaths of most of the force that attacked and with Bormann’s trial and execution the remainder of the active Phoenix cells disbanded or turned on one another. The “prison raid” of September 15, 1952 would mark the end of the Phoenix War. But the passive Phoenix cells were still very much in existence and only Bormann knew about them.
 
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Surely denazification programmes would be running? These were OTL highly effective, after all the German population was confronted with their collective guilt. Even perchance that doesn't work then you need Mel Brooks... Get him to do a springtime for hitler treatment and help the Germans to begin to realise the (monstrous) idiocy and innate stupidity of naziism.
 
Surely denazification programmes would be running? These were OTL highly effective, after all the German population was confronted with their collective guilt. Even perchance that doesn't work then you need Mel Brooks... Get him to do a springtime for hitler treatment and help the Germans to begin to realise the (monstrous) idiocy and innate stupidity of naziism.

they will notice it
the only problem they sitting in New York or Los Angeles, because they escape out the Third reich jest before the War...

in the germanys there were two groups after war
one be silence about time 1932 to 1945, as it never happened
the others will considers Hitler reign as a golden age...

last one are nasty breading ground for Neo Nazi under Phoenix cells !
 
Surely denazification programmes would be running? These were OTL highly effective, after all the German population was confronted with their collective guilt. Even perchance that doesn't work then you need Mel Brooks... Get him to do a springtime for hitler treatment and help the Germans to begin to realise the (monstrous) idiocy and innate stupidity of naziism.

But how sucessful would they be in this TL? In OTL, Germany surrendered and there was no meaningful resistance. Nazism was repudiated by its defeat and inability to continue any resistance. Germans really had no choice but to completely accept and adapt to the new order. Very quickly, the relationship between the average German civilian and Allied (or US and British at least) occupiers became non-confrontational, making people much more open to reeducation, fraternization, and eventually friendship.

In this TL, Germany did not really surrender and there is a very effective Nazi resistance. To some, the war is not over; it has just changed its focus. Many Germans may believe that the allies might yet be overthrown or at least forced to modify their postwar plans for Germany in the face of strong resistance. Plus, because the allies are forced to react much more brutally to the terrorism, they are not trying to win people's "hearts and minds". They, too, are still trying to make sure they win a war.
 
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