How Silent Fall the Cherry Blossoms

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Great stuff...nd the best rockets...

This is fantastic stuff--I like seeing another power bloc in addition to the usual ones.

The Nordic Union must have fantastic rockets, or be leasinf land for launching--geting orbital velocity from there is much harder than from points further south.

The simple comment of workable fusion power just threw the world into a total time of chaos. Everyone knows--or expects, anyway--that other energy holdings will quickly become worthless--interesting efects on the stock market--and on the middle east.
 
This is fantastic stuff--I like seeing another power bloc in addition to the usual ones.

The Nordic Union must have fantastic rockets, or be leasinf land for launching--geting orbital velocity from there is much harder than from points further south.

Must have glommed onto a number of Nazi scientists in the War's aftermath. ;)
 
Here is a brief update on the GNU.

Durabys, if you look you will see I have edited the entry on Czechaslovokia to reflect the discussions you and I had by PM.

Geon
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Greater Nordic Union (GNU):

Norway, Denmark, Finland, and Sweden all shared several things in common by the end of World War II. All of them had been dragged into the war against their will either by being invaded by one of the warring powers or their own rights to the free use of the seas had been violated by one of those powers (i.e. Arctic Dream). Further during the war the Nordic nations had received minimal help from the Allies even though the fighting had been just as brutal in Norway as it had been anywhere else in Europe. Further, after the chemical attack on Oslo the Allies had pushed for an invasion of Denmark which would have devastated that nation as well as Norway. The Nordic nations felt they had been used by the powers on both sides of this conflict and decided a united front was needed. Thus, the Greater Nordic Union was born.
The GNU began early on during the war when the Nordic powers of Norway, Sweden, Denmark, and Finland refused the Allies permission to invade Denmark through Norway. The threat to withdraw from the alliance and the fact that the Allies took that threat seriously convinced the leaders of these respective nations that there was strength in unity.
Thus, in 1947 the Treaty of Oslo was signed by representatives from Norway, Denmark, Finland, and Sweden. The treaty created a joint defense force from the armed forces of all four nations. It guaranteed the sovereignty of each nation but also made it clear that an attack on one nation by any foreign power was an attack on all. In addition the Treaty of Oslo laid the foundations of an unlimited free trade zone between the various Scandinavian nations. In 1952 Iceland petitioned to join the GNU and its petition was quickly accepted. Iceland too was tired of being a pawn of the larger powers.
By 1960 the GNU boasted one of the largest and best trained standing armies in Europe. Its soldiers were, not surprisingly, among the best “Mountain” soldiers in the world. In addition the GNU’s navy is among the worlds largest. This is one of several reasons the Soviet Union never seriously contemplated another war in Europe. The GNU controlled access with its navies to both the North Sea and the Arctic Sea and an invasion of the GNU nations would have seriously taxed Soviet forces.
However, the GNU’s actions have also been directed to the West from time to time. In 1980 the Iceland Fishing Crisis erupted between Great Britain’s fishing fleets and the Icelandic fishing fleets over fishing territories. In some cases fishing vessels from the respective countries started to be escorted by naval vessels when both sides resorted to ramming each others fishing boats. In one case this resulted in fatalities when a British fishing vessel rammed an Icelandic one causing it to sink in rough seas. Six of those on board the Icelandic vessel drowned or died of hypothermia before the others were rescued by both Icelandic and British fleets. The British apologized and offered compensation for the incident. Nevertheless there was tension between the GNU and Britain for several months thereafter. Eventually the United Nations was able to negotiate a treaty which clearly set fishing boundaries for both Iceland and Great Britain.
In addition to its conventional forces the GNU also has a small but potent nuclear force. In 1982 the GNU tested its first nuclear bomb in an underground test on an island off the northern Norwegian coast. Today while the official number of nuclear warheads controlled by the GNU is unknown it is estimated that they have between 100 and 200 such weapons ready to use via aircraft or their “Viking’s Hammer,” Medium range ballistic missiles stationed in Sweden and Finland.
Economically the GNU is one of the great economic success stories of post-war Europe. Rebuilding quickly from the war the GNU has become one of the premier exporters of raw materials such as iron ore, manganese, and other materials. The GNU has a higher standard of living then most of Western Europe with the exception of France and England today. In 1993 the GNU converted to the NordiKroner, a united currency that would be used in the GNU. The NordiKroner is now considered one of the most stable currencies on Earth.
In science and technology the GNU has also excelled. In 2010 scientists in Stockholm shocked the world when they were able to create the first controlled sustainable fusion reactor. The implications of a power source of this nature are still creating shock waves around the world.
The GNU also became the fourth great power to launch a human being into space in 2000 when Phoenix 1 orbited the Earth with two GNU astronauts aboard. In 2009 a GNU spacecraft – Phoenix IV docked with the ISS and the GNU has announced plans for a manned lunar landing in 2025.

Sorry but this snippet borders on ASB and "place-here-nation-or-group-of-nations-X"-wank. It could use some toning down a little bit.
 
This is fantastic stuff--I like seeing another power bloc in addition to the usual ones.

The Nordic Union must have fantastic rockets, or be leasinf land for launching--geting orbital velocity from there is much harder than from points further south.

The simple comment of workable fusion power just threw the world into a total time of chaos. Everyone knows--or expects, anyway--that other energy holdings will quickly become worthless--interesting efects on the stock market--and on the middle east.

The Soviet and Russian launch from Plesetsk Cosmodrome at 62.91° North with R-7 or Tsyklon rockets.

The swedish Esrange Space Center is higher with 67.53° North
means there rocket are in dimension of Tsyklon rocket.

on question, hey why have Sweden, Japan and others so good running Space program and Hardware ?
let say the V2 became a very desire War loot after WW2, wait until you see what happen to The Third Reich, but that is Spoiler...
 
Whole region missing

And what shape is the Mideast in? Has Israel been created? Has the changes in global alignments made any effect?
 
Sorry but this snippet borders on ASB and "place-here-nation-or-group-of-nations-X"-wank. It could use some toning down a little bit.

Quite. I dont have accurate memory of population size, but arent we looking at Sweden: 8, Norway:3, Denmark:10?, Finland:5?, iceland:0.3

For a total population of some 26M people, or half the size of France, and a third the size of Germany. Slightly smaller than Canada.

You also said average GDP/capita was exceded only by France and Britain in Europe, iirc. So the total economy is less than half of France's.

That wont get you ANYWHERE near what you just posted.
 
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I like the idea of a GNU, but I think its a bit of an overreach to imagine the alliance/union become a major military power with nuclear weapons and a space program. Although technologically advanced, I doubt a regional (not global) powerblock like the GNU would undertake the such expensive developments - including nuclear capability that would by default make an unaligned scandinavia a potential target of both the USA and USSR.

Also, I am not so sure about Finland being one of the GNU's charter members. Finland was not a neutral "forced" into WW2 by Nazi or Soviet aggression. Finland unilaterally and willingly aligned itself with the Germans in the Continuation War and didn't switch sides until it was obvious the USSR would defeat the Germany and its allies. Finland, unlike the other scandinavian nations, would face reparations and limitations on its military demanded by the USSR. Perhaps Finland might perition for GNU membership at a later date well after the end of the war, but I don't see it happening during the war.

If Iceland can become a member, that rasies the more likely possibility that Greenland (a Danish colony) would also be a functional part of the GNU. A huge underpopulated "wasteland" just right for nuclear tests and basing GNU ballistic missiles safely away from major population centers. How would the US, Canada, and Britain react in the late 1940's-1950's to a large nonaligned block in a geostrategic position to block sea and air connections between North American and Britain? I don't this the US or Britain would allow this to happen.
 
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...The GNU has a higher standard of living then most of Western Europe with the exception of France and Great Britain today.

Hmm. No Germany mentioned. Maybe Mr Morgenthau got his way after all.
 
...The GNU has a higher standard of living then most of Western Europe with the exception of France and Great Britain today.

Hmm. No Germany mentioned. Maybe Mr Morgenthau got his way after all.

Ya. France above Germany seems odd from an OTL perspective.


On another topic, why is it a GREATER Nordic Union? Simply Nordic Union would make at least as much sense, no?ko
 
I kind of have to agree with some of the others that the GNU got a little wanked here. Fusion power alone isn't seen as commercially viable OTL for another 20-40 years, and that's with a number of top research institutions and universities working on it full steam. That's also ignoring the money issue since those countries (if they're like OTL) would be much more socialized than the US or other parts of Europe, with a big part of their budgets going to things like healthcare and other benefits for their citizens. Militarily the Soviets would also be able to take on the combined GNU, the numbers alone speak for themselves (bloody as they would make it). If the GNU gets invaded by either NATO or WP then the other would invade as well to "restore order and halt their aggressive counterpart"; they wouldn't be a threat to either side, they'd just be a very big annoyance.

Also, I would think that with a third party controlling a large bit of valuable space of the far north that NATO would be acting really nice to Iceland and being very receptive to their demands if they felt they were being treated unfairly. From a NATO perspective, they would be incredibly paranoid about anything going on in the Arctic Circle and some secret deal between the Warsaw Pact and GNU.

Maybe change some of the stuff from the post or expand on it a little. Like the GNU discovers a fusion research breakthrough that paves the way for commercial viability in a few decades (like a process that makes it energy neutral [energy put in = energy put out] with room to improve). Iceland joining the GNU but with an agreement with NATO to keep certain installations there and access to certain bases or an exchange for something else out of the GNU.
 

Geon

Donor
On the GNU

First of all thank you all for the healthy criticism on the GNU, both here and by PM. Let me explain what I was looking for.

First, I will say openly to Durabys - no I am not from Scandanavia. However, I saw the four very healthy economies of Norway, Denmark, Iceland, and Sweden making for a formidable possibility of a new power bloc in the post World War II world.

I was aiming for what would essentially be a powerful nuetral player in the Cold War. My reasoning was that given that the Scandanavian nations had suffered somewhat more in this TL then they had in our own, they might band together for their own protection in the future, much as NATO did to Western Europe in OTL.

As some of you correctly conjectured I felt that many Germany scientists might find the climate of the Nordic nations healthier then that of the West or the East. They still might have problems but nothing to the extent that they would with either the U.S. or Russia. Hence the reason that the GNU would be more scientifically advanced. Although I will admit the fusion breakthrough may have been a bit over the top and am willing to change it.

Finally, as to the name, GNU was my first thought for a name when I started considering this many chapters back. I will admit there are other possibilities, I simply went with the first that popped into my head.

These were some of my thoughts in the creative process for the GNU. I would be interested to hear more from all of you regarding how the concept could be changed and improved.

Geon
 
A neutral powerfull player is a good thing, but even banded together the nations of the GNU had a limited population (so no, the largest or even one of the largest army is very very difficult as just France or Italy have more than 6 times the entire population of Sweden) and some limited resources, expecially if they need at the same time finance a welfare system akin to OTL and have a big military (with probably nuclear weapons), an advanced space program, etc. etc. etc.

Basically i (IMHO) will ditch the fusion power bit and just say that the GNU had some of the most advanced nuclear power technology in the world; regarding the space program is better say that they had joined the club of the nations who can send a satellite in orbit in total autonomy (sorry but i doubt that Scandinavia will have a space program more advanced that one of the ESA or ITTL version of it). For Iceland the post above is the best solution IMHO, even because without the NATO military base expect that the cod war become a very nasty economic skirmish and frankly even with all their resources pull together and the pubblic statement of neutrality the principal axiom of the GNU in case of serious Warsaw Pact military action will be: Hold out till the NATO come to help (as OTL Sweden) so somekind of working relationships and informal agreement will be reached with the Wallies as after all they had the money for rebuild the nations and sell the weapons to defend it.
Regarding the German scientist...sure they will probably prefer be on Scandinavia but i doubt that they will have this choice and frankly being too 'greedy' on this case can create some nasty diplomatic spat with both east and west and the proto-GNU get very lucky on the first time that they had said to the Allies to stuff it, the second time there will be diplomatic consequence (aka no weapons or money )
 
The GNU being a nuclear weapons state is fine, Sweden had a nuclear program OTL and could get a bomb within 6 months any time they wanted once the 80's hit, them having a top notch space program with half the economy of France is not likely
 
For Iceland the post above is the best solution IMHO, even because without the NATO military base expect that the cod war become a very nasty economic skirmish

That does sound like something Iceland would get into. :p

The GNU being a nuclear weapons state is fine, Sweden had a nuclear program OTL and could get a bomb within 6 months any time they wanted once the 80's hit, them having a top notch space program with half the economy of France is not likely

Maybe a joint space program with some other European countries (which have better launch sites, of course)?
 

Geon

Donor
Second Try

Here is a second try on Scandinavia I have changed the name (FN) and toned them down just a tad. But I am sticking by them being an independent space power. Call it simply a desire to make the space race slightly more competitive.

Geon

P.S. Note that I can't go back and change any of the earlier entries at this time due to a time limit on editing on the board. Michel please make sure this is considered the "official" entry for the FS (formerly the GNU) on the Wiki. Thanks for all your help and healthy criticism, all of you!
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Federation of Scandinavia (FS):

Norway, Denmark, Finland, and Sweden all shared several things in common by the end of World War II. All of them had been dragged into the war against their will either by being invaded by one of the warring powers or their own rights to the free use of the seas had been violated by one of those powers (i.e. Arctic Dream). Further during the war the Nordic nations had received minimal help from the Allies even though the fighting had been just as brutal in Norway as it had been anywhere else in Europe. Further, after the chemical attack on Oslo the Allies had pushed for an invasion of Denmark which would have devastated that nation as well as Norway. The Nordic nations felt they had been used by the powers on both sides of this conflict and decided a united front was needed. Thus, the Federation of Scandinavia was born.
The FS began early on during the war when the Nordic powers of Norway, Sweden, Denmark, and Finland refused the Allies permission to invade Denmark through Norway. The threat to withdraw from the alliance and the fact that the Allies took that threat seriously convinced the leaders of these respective nations that there was strength in unity.
Thus, in 1947 the Treaty of Oslo was signed by representatives from Norway, Denmark, Finland, and Sweden. The treaty created a joint defense force from the armed forces of all four nations. It guaranteed the sovereignty of each nation but also made it clear that an attack on one nation by any foreign power was an attack on all. In addition the Treaty of Oslo laid the foundations of an unlimited free trade zone between the various Scandinavian nations. In 1952 Iceland petitioned to join the FS and its petition was quickly accepted. Iceland too was tired of being a pawn of the larger powers.
By 1960 the FS boasted one of the best trained standing armies in Europe. Its soldiers were, not surprisingly, among the best “Mountain” soldiers in the world. In addition the FS’s navy is among the worlds most up-to-date. This is one of several reasons the Soviet Union never seriously contemplated another war in Europe. The FS controlled access with its navies to both the North Sea and the Arctic Sea and an invasion of the FS nations would have seriously taxed Soviet forces.
However, the FS’s actions have also been directed to the West from time to time. In 1980 the Iceland Fishing Crisis erupted between Great Britain’s fishing fleets and the Icelandic fishing fleets over fishing territories. In some cases fishing vessels from the respective countries started to be escorted by naval vessels when both sides resorted to ramming each others fishing boats. In one case this resulted in fatalities when a British fishing vessel rammed an Icelandic one causing it to sink in rough seas. Six of those on board the Icelandic vessel drowned or died of hypothermia before the others were rescued by both Icelandic and British fleets. The British apologized and offered compensation for the incident. Nevertheless there was tension between the FS and Britain for several months thereafter. Eventually the United Nations was able to negotiate a treaty which clearly set fishing boundaries for both Iceland and Great Britain.
In addition to its conventional forces the FS also has a small but potent nuclear force. In 1982 the FS tested its first nuclear bomb in an underground test on an island off the northern Norwegian coast. Today while the official number of nuclear warheads controlled by the FS is unknown it is estimated that they have between 100 and 200 such weapons ready to use via aircraft or their “Viking’s Hammer,” Medium range ballistic missiles stationed in Sweden and Finland.
Economically the FS is one of the great economic success stories of post-war Europe. Rebuilding quickly from the war the FS has become one of the premier exporters of raw materials such as iron ore, manganese, and other materials. The FS has a higher standard of living then most of Western Europe with the exception of France and England today. In 1993 the FS converted to the NordiKroner, a united currency that would be used in the FS. The NordiKroner is now considered one of the most stable currencies on Earth.
In science and technology the FS has also excelled. In 2010 scientists in Stockholm made a major breakthrough in fusion technology which may well bring about practical and usable fusion reactors in the next 15 to 20 years.
The FS also became the fourth great power to launch a human being into space in 2000 when Phoenix 1 orbited the Earth with two FS astronauts aboard. In 2009 a FS spacecraft – Phoenix IV docked with the ISS and the FS has announced plans for a manned lunar landing in 2025.
 
Cue the argument over whether Finland is Scandinavia. :p

Anyway, if you want to change a post beyond the time limit you can report the post or PM one of the mods and ask them to change it for you.
 
Cue the argument over whether Finland is Scandinavia. :p

Anyway, if you want to change a post beyond the time limit you can report the post or PM one of the mods and ask them to change it for you.

Unfortunately, you have made an excellent point. Many do not consider Finland part of "Scandinavia" - reserving the term for the linguistically and ethnically related Danes, Swedes, Nowegians, and Icelanders but not Finns.

I've already expressed my questions about having Finland one of the founders of this union, but if it is included, why not just go with "Nordic Union"?

I still am interested in where this leaves Greenland. I just don't see the USA or Canada happy with Greenland becoming a possible base for nuclear-armed ships, aircraft, or missiles from a "neutral" powerblock that is not allied with NATO, something I think is almost inevitable if the GNU/FS is a nuclear power. Would this diplomatic problem possibly accelerate the independence of Greenland? A treaty on its demilitarization?
 
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