Lands of Ice and Mice: An Alternate History of the Thule

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Some thoughts on Thule social organization and religion:

The OTL Inuit had a lot of taboos based on pleasing the spirits so they don't go away, like not eating land and sea animal meat at the same meal. Social disharmony was also seen as displeasing to the spirits (and to shorten one's own life), which resulted in many shamans being a major dispenser of social control. I think this is only going to continue to solidify in many Thule societies. This is also probably where you will see the first split in the generalized shaman caste. The type of person who is a good experimenter or engineer is not always the type of person who makes a great leader of men. So the first split is going to be the creation of a caste more focused on the day-to-day business of forcing people to get along and follow taboos and another on the more 'technical' side of implementing and innovating on the cultural package the Thule have developed. The technical caste will probably further subdivide based on specialty areas. OTL Inuit beleived certain types of spirits had a kinship, ie plants with other plants, sea animals with sea animals, and so forth. I'm thinking the technical shamans will divide into subcastes specializing in sea harvesting/navigation, land plants/microclimate engineering, and domesticated land animals/hunting. These shamans will be talking mostly to each other and develop their own traditions. Some of them may elevate certain spirits to god-like status. Sedna was a spirit who had power over the sea, and the sea shamans may revere her; walrus-riding rites will probably require extensive appeasement of Sedna, as she was assumed to have control of sea mammals. There are a variety of stories about her that ultimately end with her fingers getting getting chopped off, often by her father, Anguta, and turning into walruses and seals. She also ruled the underworld, which was more like a purgatory for the Inuit. So if the sea shamans start to increasingly resemble the cult of Sedna, the sea shamans may become increasingly involved in funerary rites, possibly tying in with the fact that many shamans that go out to sea never come back.

Also, I can totally see walrus tusks being held as an aphrodisiac now that you've established the idea that sea cows and walruses are the same thing. Look how timid and tame they are without their tusks! You ought get some of that walrus aggression in you...
 
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The Greenland Plague

1533 - Danish Traders venture to Greenland, trading for quantities of roseroot. The Danish ship travels up for a week or more, sailing along the southern coast, encountering a number of Thule communities. Most of the time, communication is by sign, or by a clumsy Norse pidgin. No traces of the Norse colonies are found, which attracts much comment. There debate over whether some of the natives are Christian, and if Christian are Catholics. The ship’s captain suggests that a Christian church and mission should be erected. Upon return, much of the commodity found to be food roseroot, rather than the more potent medicinal varieties. The returning cargo is considered a fiasco. No further efforts to reach Greenland will be made until 1540.


1536 - Kalmar Union dissolves. The remaining members of the union are reconstituted as the Kingdom of Denmark and Norway. The Danish-Norwegian Trading Company is formed to farm roseroot in Norway for Danish traders, and its focus is European. However, there are substantial purchases from Iceland.


1540 - Bouyed by good harvests in Iceland and Trondheim in the previous year, the demand for Roseroot rapidly outstrips supply and exorbitant prices are commanded for relatively paltry amounts. The Danish-Norwegian company sends expeditions to Greenland to procure what is believed to be a markedly inferior Roseroot. This time, with Icelandic Thule guides, trading is much more successful, particularly in East Greenland, where medicinal roseroot is cultivated intensively as part of the whaling culture. From this point on, Danish and Hanseatic ships are regularly crossing from Iceland to Greenland.

1542 - the Danish crown establishes a church and a trading station in a natural harbour on the East Coast of Greenland, to minister to the Christian needs of the local population.

1546 - The Danish-Norwegian Trading Company is granted a royal monopoly on the roseroot trade, both from Norway and Iceland. Hanseatic merchants continue to purchase in Iceland, but are assessed special taxes for any trading in Iceland. Hanseatic merchants stopping in Iceland to and from Greenland are also taxed, discouraging travel to Greenland.

1549 - Near the end of the sailing season, approximately late September, a sailor on a Danish ship out of Copenhagen come down ill with the measles. Most of the crew has already had it, so the voyage is little affected. Somewhere short of Iceland, he dies and is buried at sea. However, two other sailors are infected at different times. Both remain on ship during a stop in Iceland. The ship proceeds on to Greenland. Upon arrival on October 12, one of the sailors is clearly dying. The priest is called to deliver the last rites. He is buried in the small cemetery. Shortly thereafter, measles breaks out in the congregation....

1549 - November - measles is burning its way through the East Greenland Thule, headed north and south. The mortality rate among those infected is over 30%. Although the Thule have had previous experience with infectious diseases, through Bruce, Joan and particularly Mona, and through sheep/caribou infection, the speed and virulence of measles takes them by surprise. Entire households are infected and die, villages are wiped out. The disease applies universally, striking everyone from children, to youth, mature men and women, and elders. This makes it extremely difficult for care to be provided.

The epidemic strikes in the middle of harvest season, leaving crops partially in the ground. Along the shores, whale carcasses rot as whalers return home to be infected, and there is no one left to butcher the animals. Families flee ahead of the epidemic, in some cases bringing it with them and spreading it further. In other cases, hasty flight escapes infection but leaves families floundering without food or water, scraping to survive. Herding subcultures move away, hoping to avoid infection.

Then of course, there are the people who miraculously escape infection. People who are infected but survive. They emerge blinking into a nightmare, into villages stinking of rotting flesh, dogs and foxes, owls and hare eating human corpses in the middle of streets. Animals in pens starving from lack of attention. Fires broken out and untended, smoldering ruins everywhere.

A late Hanseatic trading ship, comes into harbour, just ahead of the coming ice. Finding plague has broken out, it hastily withdraws, sailing south. The expedition has bypassed Iceland, making it long and costly. The Captain desperately needs to fill his hold and bring back a return on investment somehow. The best bet is to find an uninfected region to trade with.

In the upper reaches of East Greenland, a surviving Shaman’s apprentice, recovers from the disease and buries her Master and tries to decide what to do next. Her village was small. Between people who died and people who fled, she feels that she is the only one left. Gathering together a small herd of Caribou as pack animals, a few of which are large enough and trained for riding, she heads south, looking for survivors.

Within four days, she reaches the Danish Harbour, receiving the story of how the epidemic broke out. Initially, she gathers enough information to form the conclusion that this is the center, and it is moving north and south. She resolves to travel south, to outrun the epidemic and warn people. The famous long run of Maptanaq begins.

She drives her herd ruthlessly south along the pathways, skirting fords, going up and down cliffs never meant to be traversed. Over and over again, she comes to communities where survivors are pulling themselves together. She stops again and again, meeting survivors, delivering blessings, calling upon spirits. The Shamanic class has been devastated, and most of the survivors have no idea how to cope. Alone by herself, Maptanaq seems the only person in the world who knows what is going on. The truth, however, is that she is merely driven.

As she stops, again and again, talking to survivors, meeting some of her surviving peers, she gathers the stories as she goes. At first, these are merely chronicles of disaster and survival. But between the villages, in cold nights as she clenches Caribou for warmth, writing notes on pieces of hide that no one may ever look at, the raw stories begin to sort themselves into insight.
These are new and powerful spirits raging among the people stealing their lives. This is obvious, of course, the infected died in droves despite the best songs, dances, supplications and sacrifices, despite the most powerful magics. There is a new, virulent magic. She begins to list symptoms, attempting to describe the trajectories of the disease. The early phases where it had seemed unremarkable, the escalating progress.

Her Master had been a Shaman with special knowledge of the Caribou. He had known and taught her diseases of the animals, their transmission, the strange toxicity of sheep. As any healer or Shaman, she had been taught what was known or understood about Bruce, Mona and Joan, the diseases that had struck the Thule, and the ways that these diseases had been confined. This knowledge gives her a kind of baseline structure to reflect upon the new pandemic.

There are common threads among those who survived. Food and water in plenty, warmth available from fire or animal bodies. People tell her of being too weak to go out and harvest, too weak to cook, of suffering awful thirsts. Of being too weak to care for themselves, and being cared for by those not yet infected, or recovering from infection. The ones who made it had these things to hand. For villages which had not yet begun harvests, whose seasonal slaughter had not begun or was only half done, there had been no survivors.

She begins to form a theory, that one key to survival is ensuring that the resources - food and water in particular are plentiful and easy to hand when the weakness strikes. Otherwise hunger and dehydration will finish those off who might have recovered. Medicinal Roseroot had made a small difference, giving people energy to care for each other and themselves that they might not have had. But even with all that, people had still died. It had just given some a chance to survive. She shares her observations and insights. To those surviving Shaman struggling to grasp what has happened, she is no longer an apprentice, she is clearly one of the Great Ones.

In village after village, she observes the process of the disease, the devastation wrought, coming closer and closer to the virulent front. Passing through a village of the dying, she has an insight. The virulence did not arise from nowhere. It was brought by the Christian man, by the foreigners. She has only the vaguest ideas of Christian tenets, that Christ was a spirit-man who walked among lepers - whatever they were - sick men certainly, who had died and then recovered, who had shown his followers afterwards the open sores of his hands.

Shivering in the cold one night, unable to sleep, half starved, nestled between two Caribou for warmth, she has her epiphany. Christ was the spirit of plague, of disease and death.

1549 - December - In the North shores of Greenland, measles has succumbed to low population density and panic. It does not reach Cape York, or cross over into Ellesmere. The Thule Realm is saved, for now.

1549 - December - in South Greenland, Manupataq has finally outrun the infection. Crazed desperation gives her credibility among the astonished southerners. Prior fleeing uninfected have brought stories with them. She offers her prescriptions - quarantines, avoidance of infection, stockpiling fuel, food, water and medicinal roseroot, apportionment of care duties. She passes south, giving her advice and prescriptions.

Behind her, the disease infiltrates, killing the sceptical and unwary, striking where it will. Nevertheless, its progress slows, becomes patchier. Infection rates decrease, survival rates increase. Still, the effects are terrible. Village after village comes to know the stench of rotting flesh.

Manupataq pushes deeper, a plague crier. In a Southern Harbour, she arrives at the same time as the Hanseatic merchant ship. Her status is not entirely unquestionned. She is a young northern women, heir to the mantle of Shaman, of dubious provenance. There are whispers that she may be the plague carrier rather than the crier. For those southerners who style themselves as versions of Christian, or who know a little more, her theory of Christ the plague-spirit is dubious. Her life almost hangs in the balance.


It is the Hanseatic ship that decides matters for her and for everyone. In the south, there are enough people left with some norse or norse pidgin, that a conversation can take place. They confirm the plague, of course, reporting a line of dead villages. Innocently, they report that these plagues are well known in their home country. Most tellingly however, they are avaricious in their pursuit of medicinal roseroot....

To Manupataq, their quest for roseroot confirms her paranoid theory. They are seeking to strip the southerners of a crucial element of their defense.

Following fierce debates, she sways the population. The crew of the Hanseatic Merchant are attacked, some killed. Using firearms to cut through the crowd they flee back to their ship. Kayakers harry the ship, firing arrows as they scurry around the slow leviathan. In frustration, with barely half a hold of cargo, the captain bombards the shore and heads for home.

1550 - January - Increasingly stringent and draconian quarantine measures, including in some cases relocating whole villages and scorched earth tactics and killing on sight, have slowed and finally stopped the progress of measles. Through January it continues to sputter, with isolated outbreaks up and down the east coast and in parts of the south. But the population of uninfected in areas where it raged is small enough that there’s simply not enough to keep it going. In the uninfected portions of the south, draconian measures slow it. The Cross becomes the sign of infection, the sign of plague. It is a simple symbol, easily made or drawn, and visible from far off. Manupataq’s conspiracy theory is widely adopted and continuing to spread.

1550 - February onwards. The plague of measles is essentially over. The area is in the jaws of winter. Travel is now minimal. Any accidental further infections tend to die rapidly with the infectee, transmission opportunities are very few.

The culture of the East Coast Thule is beginning to right itself. Bodies are disposed of, burnt homes cleared away. Many ptarmigan and arctic hare have died in their pens from lack of care. But the Caribou and even northerly the Musk Ox and dogs are unimpaired. The Thule culture has always been remarkable in the amount of animal horsepower it has had available to it, and that fountain of horsepower is mostly still intact, despite the drop in human population. Times are tough, people are hungry this winter because of the interruptions in harvest. But not as hungry as they might be - there is still plenty of caribou, musk-ox and dog to eat, if you get hungry enough. Most of the Thule crops are still in the ground, and intact. If you don’t harvest sweetvetch or claytonia in the third year.... well, the plant is fine, it just keeps doing its thing, and you can harvest in the fourth year or fifth year. It’s not as if the crop is going to rot in the field, as might happen in southern cultures.

People are people. There are new marriages among the survivors, children are adopted, elders get taken care of. Broken bonds are re-established, or new bonds and new arrangements are made. The herding subculture up and down gains at the expense of the agricultural people. Many of them abandon emptied villages to consolidate, leaving their lands to aggressive herders. Of course, the herdsmen, with all those fields of produce now under their control... some of them will eventually settle down and start farming themselves - why look a gift caribou in the mouth.

Manupataq is a Shaman of immense stature. Those who know her personally are fairly dubious of her, she’s a bit flaky, a bit crazy at times, she’s too young and headstrong. But this doesn’t matter. Her reputation has spread across Greenland, and her theories and ideas and insights become the dominant intellectual structure for the surviving castes of Shaman’s who, faced with this catastophe, desperately need something to make sense of it all. Rightly or wrongly, Manupataq has created a good ‘off the shelf’ package that they can use, and it’s the only real package out there. It doesn’t hurt that in many critical ways, she has the right of it. People will die for what she’s gotten wrong, but perhaps more people will live for what she managed to get right.

The Danish ships that come in the summer find themselves extremely unwelcome. In many places, they are driven off with volleys of arrows, in other places people simply flee. The ships report crucifixes up and down the coast, a puzzle whose meaning they cannot sort out. There are a few places where landings take place, where there are no ambushes, and where something like the old trade takes place. But mostly, they go home empty.

For Danish captains, and particularly Hanseatic captains, the situation is a disaster. Greenland is a long way to go, to come back with empty hands. In the larger sense, the Danes are sanguine, the Greenland Roseroot market has had a poorer reputation for quality and was relatively more expensive to procure, and it was only a supplementary production source to them in any event - their real production was coming from Iceland and Norway. Production is still tiny, compared to the potential demand, the Danes could sell ten or twenty times the quantities of Roseroot and still not find the market’s bottom. But they’re making money, they are happy.

The Hanseatic merchants are unhappy. Greenland was the last real independent source of Roseroot, otherwise the Danes have a monopoly. Events have shut them out of the market. There’s some talk of heading north to the Sea Thule, or of travelling further west.... but it doesn’t amount to much.

1551 - 1554 - European ships are still unwelcome the length and breadth of Greenland, but as the plague fades into memory, that begins to fade a bit too. In the next decade some trade will re-establish. In the meantime, the interrupted trade network across the north of Greenland starts up again. Christianity will be distinctly unwelcome, and there will be considerable suspicion and caution accompanying dealings with the visitors. The story and reports of the plague cross over to Ellesmere, spreading through the trade network, and reaching as far as Baffin Island, Hudson Bay and McKenzie basin, as do copies of Manupataq’s documents, suitably remarked upon and annotated. While for most, it is a seven day wonder, some traders and shamans pay particular attention....

* At this time, the aggregate population of Greenland is about 240,000. Of these, 45,000 have died.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Hobelhouse seems to be thinking much the same things as I am.

And it is nice to see Christ becoming a plague spirit for the Thule. So many interesting effects that could have...

fasquardon
 
Well, it's going to make missionary work rather more problematic. There's going to be an evolving folklore tradition of Shaman vs Missionary stories, and the the Missionaries are not going to come off well.

Overall, it was an interesting run. It was quite tempting to try and do this in the form of a narrative story, putting you directly in the position of this young Shamanic Apprentice as she crosses a thousand miles of misery and despair. The imagery and the personal dimension would have been rivetting. Mainly, unfortunately, I'm just trying to get it done.

Apart from that, it was interesting having the Thule cope with their first outside pandemic. Kind of a mental exercise. My thinking?

1) The culture does have enough insight into and knowledge of contagion and communicable diseases that it will be able to formulate a response. Unfortunately, that insight and knowledge didn't help it in this case, and quite often, its going to end up a day late and a dollar short in many later cases.... but it may make a difference.

Unfortunately, it's responses may not be any more effective than contemporary or prior European responses to disease pandemics. When you start digging into the records, there's stuff to turn your hair white. Cities or entire countries ravaged by periodic pandemics, cities being continually depopulated. Iceland, as an example we are already familiar with, suffered two pandemics which each killed 30 to 50% of the population during the 1400's. Of course, European population densities in many communities could get substantial, European sanitation and medicine, public health measures, were pretty unsophisticated. But not entirely unsophisticated.

2) Nevertheless there is some degree of sophistication in confronting epidemic diseases, which might be able to quarantine or slow down outbreaks. The trouble is that many of these pandemics tend to resemble each other - there's usually the same sort of starting symptoms - cold symptoms - and then moving onto a boils and blisters stage which is superficially similar. However, each pandemic has slightly different vectors of transmission, infection and infectiousness, which means its a shell game - every time the Thule might think they've figured out how to contain a particular pandemic, another nearly identical one will slip through a hole they didn't know was there. The learning curve will be huge.

3) Don't think that they've done more than begun the learning curve. Manupataq did some pretty good work in Greenland, and that place is actually relatlively well defended for the time being. But it's not as if all the other Shamans are going to be picking up Shaman's Quarterly Gazette - feature article 'How to stop a Plague, by Manupataq' The news will get out, but mostly it doesn't make a difference. Look at it this way, when the Japanese Earthquake hit, did you take any lessons from it, prepare a survival kit, earthquake-proof your home? Nah. For most Thule, even Shamans, who hear about it, it's just a horrible thing that happened far away and has no relevance to their lives.... until its on top of them, and its too late. There are a few who will end up paying attention - traders who recognize an unanticipated potential area of risk in dealing with a trading partner, and some Shamans, particularly those who are working with cattle diseases or human disease outbreaks. Manupataq's teachings will not stop or even slow the pandemics, they'll simply shorten the learning curve for the Thule who are figuring out how to cope with them.

4) The other area where sophistication might make a difference is that the Thule might have enough palliative care to keep more people surviving the experience. Basically, sometimes in a situation like this, you might be able to survive the disease, but starvation, dehydration, being too weak to keep a fire going for warmth, being too weak to carry out life sustaining activities, can be what really kills you. It's tricky however, given that the Thule are a naive, virgin population. It's hard to provide palliative care when everyone has the disease - medicinal roseroot may have a contribution here. It's of no real medical value in curing the pandemics, but its a stimulant and euphoric, and may keep the victims functioning and active enough that they can take care of themselves and each other.

5) Overall, there's a very substantial population. Kill off half of them, you still have a great big pile of people ready to breed their way back. Enough Thule may continually survive and breed back to keep their society from collapse, and maintain their regional dominance.

6) The Thule subsistence economy is remarkably resilient to these sorts of shocks. Like all pre-industrial societies, the Thule are about labour - human labour, and animal labour. Unlike southern cultures, they have a large amount of animal labour at their disposal, which will mostly be untouched by the plagues. The constancy of animal labour may provide a cultural cushion. Other, southern cultures, suffering demographic devastation, ended up with two few people to work the crops, to do all the labour of the society. In this sense, having an unaffected labour constituency - animal horsepower, may make a difference between collapse and survival.

7) There's also the Thule agricultural package - mostly perrenial plants, many of them with extended lifespans, operating on a three year cycle. For the key plants, roseroot, sweetvetch and claytonia, the maximum lifespan is 5 to 7 years. Domesticated berries bushes will simply give yield each year. So a major disruption of the population during the course of a year may not be complete ruin - the crops are still there to be taken in, not rotting in the fields. This doesn't necessarily keep a smallpox victim alive, but on the other hand, it mitigates the social consequences of a smallpox pandemic. Massive fatalities can lead to social collapse because there simply aren't enough people to do the work - in many cases, that key work is food production, and when the Agricultural economy goes - when people aren't working the fields, when crops are failing or rotting in the field, then society is in big trouble. The perrenial package means that even if the pandemic disrupts the season's planting... well, the harvest is still there. And even if the pandemic disrupts the harvest... that harvest is still there to be collected later. Applying some of this logic to Jared's Land of Red and Gold, leaves me thinking that the Auraurian cultures with their relatively high populations and perrenial agricultural package will come through the pandemics damaged but functioning.

8) The Thule cultures are, for the most part, a lot harder to reach than the Meso-American and Andean Civilizations. So they may get some breathing room that their southern contemporaries did not. There will be no convenient civil wars, or armies of subject peoples to enlist.

9) Manupataq's teachings include a spectacular dose of xenophobia, particularly against Europeans and Christianization. The Thule have often been somewhat Xenophobic in regard to their neighbors, so its not as if it has no place in the culture. Hostility to Europeans, and attempting to confine contact may slow the introduction of pandemics. Unfortunately for the xenophobes, the range of European wares is so insanely attractive to Thule cultures that it will drive trade. The Thule won't be able to close themselves off, or try to, like Japan and China did.
 
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Well, it's going to make missionary work rather more problematic. There's going to be an evolving folklore tradition of Shaman vs Missionary stories, and the the Missionaries are not going to come off well.

I think in the long term it might make the Christianization of the Thule easier. They've just learned why they need to respect the Christ-spirit. And why the crazy norse spent so much effort doing silly rituals to please him.

And natural resistance building as plagues burn through Thule populations, as well as the organizational benefits that the Church would bring, would also give some credence to the idea that making the proper offerings to the Christ spirit brings benefits.

I don't think it will happen all at once, without resistance or simply, but I do think the Thule will Christianize - particularly now that they have a conceptual space to slot Christ into. And the Catholic church and the Orthodox Church are going to have conceptual space for the other Thule spirits - many are likely to end up being saints.

My bet is that the Thule are not going to get on with Protestants though.

fasquardon
 
Hmm, medicine is something I didn't think about. I think medicine men will attach themselves more to the ruling caste of shamans. By analogy, if the farming caste are exercising plant shamanism, the herding caste animal shamanism, and the sea caste, um, sea shamanism, then the ruling caste will be exercising 'people shamanism'. Probably many of the ruling caste will try to cultivate an image of supernatural powers of leadership - for example, OTL Inuit shamans often went on a spirit quest after a conflict in the community where two stories conflicted, and often when he returned the guilty party confessed, assuming he must know they were at fault. Other shamans might try to cultivate an image of detecting lies, or of having other supernatural forms of knowledge. Medicine men will be another form of 'people shaman', tending to the health of people's spirits, probably not holding power except in times of plague.

I think all castes of shamans are going to have at least some sphere where they exercise social control. At sea the sea shamans are going to be the experts; and the plant and animal shamans will have to exercise control of where mounds and grazing lands go etc. But the ruling caste will have the most control. The plant shamans will say that a mound will go from point A to point B, but the people shamans will get down to the business of arranging several tons of gravel to be moved from point C, making sure the work crew gets their rations from the stores at point D, calming down Workman Anuk after Workman Uliaq told him his mama so fat she must have the spirit of a whale, etc...

Among different sections of Thule different arrangements may emerge. I can see the sea caste merging with the ruling caste for the Sea Thule, since they spend so much time out to sea anyway.
 
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Going a bit stream of consciousness here. I do wonder how the military is going to fit into this. Going out and killing people doesn't really seem a... shaman-y thing to do. In war time people are generally going to follow the orders of guys who know how to use the weapons over those of some mystical guy. I think in Siberia and on the southern edges of the Thule domain, you're going to see the people shamans demoted to something of a support role - their advice will be often heeded but major decisions will rest in the hands of military chiefs. How these chiefs will be determined I couldn't tell you, but it seems likely some form of monarchy and vassalage system will develop in places. Particularly Siberia where you have ambitious Thule coming in from all over the Arctic Circle trying to carve out land for themselves. In the older areas with no external enemies, like Alaska and the MacKenzie valley, the ruling caste of people shamans will probably remain dominant, though able to command militia and lawkeepers to defend the settlements against other Thule. I think looking at the Incan economy would be instructive for how the Thule economy will develop these places. OTL Inca considered the Sapa Inca to be a living god, and the whole kingdom was in a sense his property - thus it was run as a primitive planned economy, with government storehouses distributing food and other goods, craftsmen employed by the state, and a distinct lack of markets, though they did have state-managed trade. In the older Thule lands, the ruling caste people shamans may arrogate themselves this control on the basis of best knowing how to organize things to please the spirits. This is also going to give them a huge incentive to resist Christianization. The legitimacy of their rule is based on the spirits' existence, deny that and there's no reason to listen to them anymore. They're about as inaccessible as it gets from the Christian nations, however, so this wouldn't come to a head for a while.

Ellesmere may see the emergence of an oligarchy based on family ties. The fact that they're living on the edge of the habitable world lends the shamans a lot of power there, but the island is so dependent on the diaspora network that their own concerns will also be catered to. Probably the leading ruling caste shaman will officially rule while he is 'advised' by a council of prominent clan or family leaders who hold most of the real power because of their overseas connections.
 
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I think in the long term it might make the Christianization of the Thule easier. They've just learned why they need to respect the Christ-spirit. And why the crazy norse spent so much effort doing silly rituals to please him.

And natural resistance building as plagues burn through Thule populations, as well as the organizational benefits that the Church would bring, would also give some credence to the idea that making the proper offerings to the Christ spirit brings benefits.

I don't think it will happen all at once, without resistance or simply, but I do think the Thule will Christianize - particularly now that they have a conceptual space to slot Christ into. And the Catholic church and the Orthodox Church are going to have conceptual space for the other Thule spirits - many are likely to end up being saints.

My bet is that the Thule are not going to get on with Protestants though.

Interesting argument. Based on the popularity of Satanism OTL as a result of the robust portrayal of the fallen angel in the bible?

The long term trajectory of Christianity among the Thule is still up in the air. But right now, the message that's coming out of Greenland is that Christ is the deity of scabs and sores, the lord of plague and pestilence, an indiscriminate killer, three of the four horsemen of the apocalypse rolled into one. Where Christ takes hold, people die, starting with anyone foolish enough to follow him. A militant aversion to Christianity/Westernization may have some ameliorative effects on the outbreak of pandemics.

What success the Christianity will have among the Thule long term is up for grabs. While Christianity was successful in spreading into northern europe, and in the devastated cultures of the Colombian interchange, its success at displacing the animist faiths of Africa is middling, and the polytheists of India is minimal.

For the Thule, the shamanic traditions are not just a spiritual infrastructure, but a very practical part of organizing the Thule subsistence economy. Disrupt that, and you could see adverse effects ranging from local extirpations of Beluga and Walrus, to crop failures and local crises. I see Christianity taking root in the Iceland Thule, possibly in Norway and among the Sea Thule. But the further east you go...?
 
Hmm, medicine is something I didn't think about. I think medicine men will attach themselves more to the ruling caste of shamans. By analogy, if the farming caste are exercising plant shamanism, the herding caste animal shamanism, and the sea caste, um, sea shamanism, then the ruling caste will be exercising 'people shamanism'. Probably many of the ruling caste will try to cultivate an image of supernatural powers of leadership - for example, OTL Inuit shamans often went on a spirit quest after a conflict in the community where two stories conflicted, and often when he returned the guilty party confessed, assuming he must know they were at fault. Other shamans might try to cultivate an image of detecting lies, or of having other supernatural forms of knowledge. Medicine men will be another form of 'people shaman', tending to the health of people's spirits, probably not holding power except in times of plague.

Medicine and magic are literally interchangeable concepts for many societies. That's why local magicians and sorcerers are called 'medicine men', and its why you will see magic referred to as 'medicine.'

Look at it this way - in tribal or pre-modern cultures, magic is really about trying to understand and control the intangible and apparently random. It's about trying to find a way to manipulate something that you can't affect physically.

You go out on a hunt, you're chasing a rabbit. The rabbit dodges left, you eat, the rabbit dodges right, you starve. That's what magic is, trying to load the cosmic dice a little, to get that rabbit dodging left.

The most profound magic happens on the personal level. How do you punch a cold in the nose? Can you outrun a weeping sore? You feel weak and trembly with fever? You have the runs? In the natural world, we are heir to all sorts of virus, bacteria, fungal infections, infections, parasites, illness and circumstance which robs us of our feelings of health and wellbeing. These are all intangible in a senses - we can't hit them, kick them, run away from them, skin them, fire an arrow at them or burn them. We are helpless.

These are all fundamentally magical afflictions to the pre-modern mind, and so a primary stock in trade for any magician, any shaman, is curing or at least coping with the ills of mind and body. Hence, every Shaman will be a medical practitioner.

Actually, its not even all that pre-modern. Rasputine was considered a great holy man by his followers for his abilities as a magical healer. Medieval kings, and a great many saints, modern religious revivalists all claim or are attributed the ability to heal the sick and revitalize the afflicted.

Now, as to how that actually works? In many cases, the placebo effect is a powerful thing, and mumbo jumbo and hoopla actually will cure or cause people to cure themselves. In a lot of cases, a body will heal or recover naturally, with a Shaman taking the credit. In some cases, people die, but those tend to be overlooked - they're not around to complain about the Shaman's lack of efficacy. There's also some basis to suggest that accumulated lore of tribal remedies and medicines, potions and plants and treatments, might in some circumstances do some good. The point is that any relatively competent Shaman should be able to pass themselves as an effective healer.

Now, in the case of Thule Shamans, are they actually any good at medicine in a western sense? Well, they're not cupping, applying leaches, bloodletting or delivering babies without washing their hands after dissecting corpses. So that puts them ahead of 17th or 18th century medicine.

Southern Indian medicine men had a thing called the sweat lodge - a healing ceremony where a whole bunch of men would be packed very tightly in a humid overheated environment.... pretty much perfect for transmitting infectious diseases like measles, smallpox or typhus. It had worked very well for certain kinds of things... incredibly badly for other situations.

The Thule, as a result of the sheep/caribou thing, and as a result of their own few indigenous diseases have a grasp of the whole infection thing. I can't say too much as to the rest of their toolkit. Some of their traditions and remedies may help, some may make things worse, some will have no effect.
 
I think it is very unlikely that the Thule will develop a solid hereditary system - most societies I've studied have taken thousands of years to develop such systems. It was one of the reasons why Medieval Europe was so stable compared to earlier societies, is they came up with a very good range of traditions for maintaining a stable kingship.

We think of them as primitive now, but compared to the less certain traditions that classical civilizations had, or Native American societies had, it was a real improvement.

Even "primitive" chiefdoms took thousands of years to develop (as well as we can judge from the evidence. So I very much doubt the Thule have time to develop a solid hereditary tradition themselves.

That goes for other ruling systems the Thule develop - my bet is all of them are quite fragile, mostly based on personal prestige, or the prestige of a family.

fasquardon
 
I am inclined to agree with this in many respects.

I'm inclined to wonder how dawn civilizations arranged themselves. Where was the social continuities in ancient mesopotamia?
 
Interesting argument. Based on the popularity of Satanism OTL as a result of the robust portrayal of the fallen angel in the bible?

No, I am more thinking of how disease gods were treated by other early civilizations. Many gods of healing for example, were very important because they were also the gods of healing.

After the gods most tied to food production, the gods of disease seem to have had the most powerful priesthoods generally. Which is a good indication of who was getting the allegiance of the common people (myths and legends remembered today are often the myths of the ruling classes - and so tend to emphasize gods that weren't much worshiped outside special circles).

The Thule during the period of European contact are going to get alot of plagues - so I could see people accepting the idea of the missionaries that Christ is the most important spirit - otherwise how could he kill 9 out of 10 people every generation?

And social organization in mesopotamia is already quite late in agricultural history - more interesting is the social organization in Jerico and Çatal Hüyük. But we aren't too sure exactly what was going on there. What is sure is that it took a very long time for strong gaps between rich and poor to emerge - implying social elites that could cream off the surplus of their fellows by saying "we serve that god there" or "we have the right to rule over you just 'cuz our dad was cool" had a long development process. Both Jerico and Çatal Hüyük seem to have had no real elites, early Syrian cities (1,000-2,000 years after Jerico) show evidences of very slight gradations of wealth and poverty, early Sumerian cities show larger, but still smaller gradations of wealth, whereas late Sumerian cities (4,000 years after the first agricultural cities upriver) show enough of a wealth gradient that the people at the top could afford ziggurat temples and royal palaces.

There are some interesting studies that have been done on the evolution of Chiefdoms among the Malayo-Polynesian peoples. Basically, the earlier an area was settled, the more likely it was that their ideas of Chiefdomship would be more informal, whereas the later an area was settled, the more formal their social stratification became. So Polynesian societies (which come quite late in the process of the Malayo-Polynesian expansion) all had quite formal traditions of Chiefdomship.

Based on that, my feeling is that stratified social organizations are more difficult to invent than new crops are. Which is saying something.

fasquardon
 
How did the Mongols self-organize? I am still interested in the question of how and when dawn civilizations emerge and organize themselves. I've got your private message by the way. I want to provide you with a considered response.

As for the acceptance of missionaries, the problem is that there is going to be a cultural perception that the missionaries are introducing and facilitating the plagues. I don't think that's going to work out well for them. The Christ Plagues will certainly get a lot of attention, but the survivors are probably going to look to the heroic Shamans who danced and sang their hearts out fighting off the Christian spirits. The problem is that the Christ plagues are going to be nasty, but they're unlikely, individually or collectively, to bring about the collapse of the Thule cultures. Absent that collapse, I don't see Christianity making huge inroads - no more than in Sub-Saharan Africa, India or China, and possibly less.

Indeed, if you look at the Inca Empire, the smallpox epidemic didn't itself break the Inca Empire. It killed a lot of people and precipitated a civil war that further devastated the Empire. This was followed by some very smart and lucky Spaniards who were able to organize subject peoples. The Quechua 'christianized' but this was part of their relegation to a subordinate population, dominated by the conquerers and the conquerers religion.
 
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How did the Mongols self-organize?
Ooh, ooh, I know. Prior to Genghis Khan, they had a sort of esteem-based not-quite aristocracy of people related "by bone" or "by blood" (in the male line vrs. the female line) to famous mythic hero-ancestors. The more direct your connection was to Old Great So-and-so who killed the Such and Such, the more esteem you commanded in the band (all else being equal), and the more likely people were to follow your orders. If you were the leader, not just of a band, but of a tribe you were a khan, and you needed the tacit agreement of all the other leaders of the other bands in the tribe to lead. The same is true for a multi-tribe alliance, lead by a great khan (khagan). Khans and khagans were chosen by kurultai, or gathering, where the word went out that the prospective khagan wanted you to come meet him at a particular place. If you showed up, you and your band "voted" for him.
So that was the system.
Genghis Khan tried to change that by creating a new decimal system of military organization, but every time the old khagan died and a new one was chosen, there had to be a kurultai recalling everyone back to Karakorum (or wherever) to vote on which of Temujin's descendents would next command the empire. Clearly the system didn't work all that well in the long run.
 

PhilippeO

Banned
is Mongols good model for Thule ? some tribes is descended from Liao dinasty and other had hundred of years of relations of China. it much more sophisticated than Thule, who had no 'China' neighbors.
 
Hadn't thought about how much Thule agriculture will help them wrt plague but it's so obvious once you think about it. Even if you're too sick to harvest a crop one year, well all of the plants are still there in a the ground...
 
is Mongols good model for Thule ? some tribes is descended from Liao dinasty and other had hundred of years of relations of China. it much more sophisticated than Thule, who had no 'China' neighbors.
Exactly. The Mongols are no "Dawn Civilization" - the region had long-standing contacts with and influences from China, and there was a tradition of steppe monarchies going back at least to the Huns / Hsiung-Nu, over a millennium. And the Hsiung-Nu themselves were clearly influenced by the Scythians / Saka, so there are already many layers of earlier cultural / civilizational influences when Genghis Khan enters the scene.
 
Interesting. So, let's throw it out a little further. What sort of organizations did the Indians of the New World have and how did it emerge? What's the situation of the Anasazi, the Iroquois, the Miqmaq, the Algonkwin, the Haida, the Cherokee?

Is the 'Big Man' model of tribal governance found in Africa a likely model?

What sort of organization was perceived for the barbarian tribes who invaded the Roman and Byzantine Empires - the goths, vandals, avars, bulgars, magyars, etc.?
 
Exactly. The Mongols are no "Dawn Civilization" - the region had long-standing contacts with and influences from China, and there was a tradition of steppe monarchies going back at least to the Huns / Hsiung-Nu, over a millennium. And the Hsiung-Nu themselves were clearly influenced by the Scythians / Saka, so there are already many layers of earlier cultural / civilizational influences when Genghis Khan enters the scene.

Even the Scythians are a relatively late culture - agricultural and herding communities had been living between the Danube and the Aral Sea for 3-4000 years before.

And also, the steppes were one of the great trade routes.

For these and the reasons other posters have mentioned, the Mongols were actually a pretty sophisticated culture. And that sophistication was a big reason why they conquered so much of Eurasia.

And with regards to the competition between Shamen and Missionaries - the Shamen have a really big disadvantage here - they lack organization. That is going to really hinder their ability to impede Christianity when Christians start coming to the Thule sphere in numbers. Generally, when a more organized religion clashes with a less organized religion, the less organized religion is overwhelmed. (And I mean organized in terms of having a bigger toolkit of social skills.)

My bet is Thule spirits that govern the sea harvest, the planting times and so on - the really important and necessary ones - Christianity is likely to adopt those as saints - or give those functions to saints. It will have to, in order to succeed. There will be Missionaries who aren't flexible enough to try that. Well, they'll make good martyrs. But others will. And there are going to be thousands of experiments across the Thule realm and across the Christian spectrum as thousands of Missionaries try to find the way to bring the good word to the savages. And once someone does succeed in doing that, the superior toolkit of the Christian Churches is going to offer itself to the Thule.

I don't think Thule animism is doomed necessarily, it is more that I see the deck being stacked against them. The Thule could resist Christianization. As you've pointed out, there are some real difficulties in the missionaries adapting to Thule realities. If I were to give odds, it would be Christianity 70% chance of victory, Shamen 30% chance. (Of course, really there are many varieties of Christianity and many Thule communities in this struggle, so the real situation would be alot more complex than saying 70/30 implies.)

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Interesting. So, let's throw it out a little further. What sort of organizations did the Indians of the New World have and how did it emerge? What's the situation of the Anasazi, the Iroquois, the Miqmaq, the Algonkwin, the Haida, the Cherokee?

Is the 'Big Man' model of tribal governance found in Africa a likely model?

What sort of organization was perceived for the barbarian tribes who invaded the Roman and Byzantine Empires - the goths, vandals, avars, bulgars, magyars, etc.?

Again, all of these societies are much older than the Thule, in terms of how long they existed at a certain population density.

And the "Big Man" model of tribal governance in Africa is alot more complex than most people assume. For example, when the British were colonizing Nigeria, they decided that every village needed a Chief - so they went and told the richest man in each village that he was the boss of everyone in the village now. The horrible irony of this is that a big struggle in modern Nigeria is between the "traditional" Chiefs and the "colonialist imposed" elected government. And actually, in many places, both systems were imposed by the colonialists at different times.

Best I understand it, in most places in Africa, there were "big men" but they were big men without any authority beyond being respected as the best arguer, the best farmer, the best fighter. He often had no rights above his fellow villagers. In some rich parts of Africa, these big men evolved into petty kings (i.e. what we think of when we think "chief"), but that was the result in generations of big men trying to solidify and increase their power.

fasquardon
 
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