Lands of Ice and Mice: An Alternate History of the Thule

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Seriously? Wow! Has anyone done the genetic tests to corroborate that? If so, blond Inuit make the third independent evolution of blond-ness in humans (mutation of MC1R 11,000 YA in Europe, mutation of TYRP130-5,000 YA around the Solomon Islands, and now this one in northern Canada). Very interesting.

http://www.nature.com/news/blonde-hair-evolved-more-than-once-1.10587


I had no idea it was controversial or particularly interesting. But then again, looking back, I should have known better.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blond_Eskimos

If you google 'Blond Eskimos' a lot of links come up. I'm not sure if it amounts to anything significant. What might be simply a funny little mutation seems to have acquired some extra cache as a result of preoccupations with skin or hair colour, and hypotheticals of lost races or race mixing.

I think that in decades before archeological evidence from Baffin Island or Labrador came up, this was probably a lightning rod for speculative (flakey)archeology alleging that the Vikings had gotten further and left more traces than was officially accepted.

Now, in light of evidence of Viking outposts in Helluland (Baffin) and Vinland (Labrador), it just seems like a red herring.
 
Seriously? Wow! Has anyone done the genetic tests to corroborate that? If so, blond Inuit make the third independent evolution of blond-ness in humans (mutation of MC1R 11,000 YA in Europe, mutation of TYRP130-5,000 YA around the Solomon Islands, and now this one in northern Canada). Very interesting.

http://www.nature.com/news/blonde-hair-evolved-more-than-once-1.10587

Well, it is worth noting that there are alot of people to test and alot of genes to test, for example, they recently found a village of people in Cameroon and a man in the USA who had a Y chromosome that was so different from everything else known, that it probably split from the more common Y Chromosome types so long ago that Homo Sapiens hadn't even evolved at that point.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn23240-the-father-of-all-men-is-340000-years-old.html

So, keep in mind that this is a science in its infancy. However, based on the best research on Inuit, there is no evidence of interbreeding with European populations before the 20th Century or so.

fasquardon
 
Sure, but this seems like it would be the key moment for the ruling shaman class, if it already exists, to seize pre-eminent power.

Possibly. But the pandemics won't be a single great wave depopulatling its way across the Thule realm. More like an extended spell of bad weather over decades.

I'm still working things out but what I see is periodic waves of pandemics. Greenland, because of Xenophobia and paranoia is actually going to be pretty good at resisting. It may not see another runaway pandemic for as long as thirty or forty years, perhaps longer.

The next pandemic will hit Labrador and knock it back a bit, it will crawl part way across Baffin, but not make it to the mainland. After that, Labrador's going to see local regional pandemic outbreaks with frequency, but relatively low population density, ample resources and a penchant to run means that they'll have trouble really getting up a head of steam and sweeping across the region, or breaking into the rest of the Thule realm.

After that a big pandemic hits the Hudson Bay culture center, lots of death and misery, population dislocation. Question is whether this one will make it to the McKenzie Basin heartland if there, it blows like wildfire through Alaska and the Alaskan-affiliated cultures, and thence to Siberian Thule and their enemies, and possibly all the way to the Sea Thule at Talmyr.

If the first pandemic coming from Hudson Bay doesn't (my models still need some tuning), the next one will, simply because of the earlier population dislocations. It's inevitable.

Alaska will have a secondary vector of infections coming from sailors up the pacific coast. That will blast its way east into McKenzie, but may have trouble reaching Hudson Bay - there's a belt of thin population which may be a safeguard slowing rates of infection. It will also blast into the Siberian Thule heading west.

Finally, the Siberian Thule may be exposed to pathogens as they get closer to Europe. If so, that will travel an arctic highway, all the way back to Alaska and then McKenzie. Devastating friends and enemies along the way.

Throw in an increasingly sophisticated population which develops relatively effective coping mechanisms every time a pandemic comes around, and gets its game up faster each time, and possibly an increasingly resistant population... lot of variables to consider.

Who knows, the Thule might even have a bona fide genius show up in the right time and place and invent inoculation.

The key is to try and avoid the whole 'planet of hats' syndrome. It's all about time and space, and erratic uneven qualities to both.


Well, this is true, but proper set and setting can go a long way. As someone who happens to know a fair amount about psychedelics, I can tell you one universal characteristic of these drugs is that the environment you're in when you take them is more important than the kind of drug you're taking. This is why for example, the Native American Church uses rituals to get peyote takers in the right state of mind. This is also probably why so many hippies ended up messed up since they would take them in stressful environments full of strangers, or just because it was Tuesday. Notably, members of the Native American Church do not display any abnormal brain function.

But you would agree with me that fever, illness, dehydration, starvation and trauma induced altered brain chemistry trips occurring during the middle of a pandemic where you get to watch your entire family die around you or witness dead children laying in the streets unattended being eaten by dogs gone feral.... probably won't be producing happy trips.

The new wave of mystical experience produced by a pandemic may be a pretty scary thing overall.


My point is, the shamans are of an experimental enough temperament that they could probably devise similar, safer ways to have regular people commune with the spirits.

True.

Also, 'seeing insistent vision critters' isn't a completely representative description of what a psychedelic vision is like. I mean, that's one form it can take, but, they can also be a lot more... abstract than that. The spirit's message may be shown, not told, if that makes any sense.

Well, when I was having my vision of floating machine parts, none of them had anything to say to me. I quite agree that visions can take many forms and permutations - an 'externalized entity communicating specific ideas' is one, but not the only one.

Nevertheless, the mythology is replete with supernatural entities that, even on our side, are pushy, demanding, abusive and downright dangerous. Schizophrenics experiencing visual or auditory hallucinations which have a personality component (ie - a voice talking to them), report that quite often it's damned hard to ignore.

Anyway, I hope that I don't offend you with my relentlessly pragmatic approach to the mystical experience. Subjectively, these experiences are real and valid to those who experience them, and often full of profound meaning.

I don't so much disbelieve in the existence of an autonomous supernatural, but rather believe that an autonomous supernatural is not required to explain the phenomena and descriptions.


Absolutely. I do wonder if they'll end up sorting themselves into large regions based on the results of these experiments or splinter into a variety of minipolities enacting different solutions. Certainly some responses lend themselves to expansion more than others; an egalitarian shamanistic movement based on the idea that the old shamans were wrong has more of a proselytizing impulse than one where all we need to do to appease the plague spirit is make some sacrifices etc.

I'm inclined to think that we'll continue to see a great deal of heterodoxy, although heterodoxy moderated by contact and communication.
 
The sparseness of the environment does raise the question of how soon would they be up against the raw edge where there just aren't enough resources locally for all the Inuit who are already there to have enough. It seems though the Inuit of OTL often sidestepped the question by moving into new ranges previously deserted, or occupied by others they ruthlessly displaced (into death and oblivion of course.:eek:) Here they also have the ability to move the goalposts by adopting and intensifying cultivation of various kinds, and exploiting the widespread net of general knowledge that a more intense level of trade supported by generally more productive abilities offers them, so that if they abandon or out-emigrate from a marginal territory they have some good idea where they should go.

OTLs Inuit often didn't side-step problems. They often starved. They lived in a very marginal environment where alot could go wrong. Often alot did go wrong, and family groups would be decimated or simply annihilated.

I don't see this being removed entirely for the Thule. They have made themselves more secure. But there will still be starving times.

So I think the answer to your question is that the Thule are going to be constantly up against the raw edge - they have about 800 years in which they are constantly pulling new rabbits out of the hat to slowly push that raw edge forward, either by widening their crop selection, bringing more animal labour under their control, extending their microclimates or killing the neighbours and taking their land - but in that time, there are going to be alot of years where a certain area and a certain Thule family gets the short end of the stick and things get so bad that the slow succession of rabbits still falls short of what is needed to stave off disaster.

That said, all agricultural societies before the age of mass transport lived under the specter of famine. I imagine the peasants in 1400s France are better off than the peasants of 1400s Mackenzie basin TTL, but it would be hard to say how much better off.

So in the matters of war and peace, they are a bit schizophrenic, at war with all outsiders but mainly at peace with each other.

My understanding of what has been written is that the Thule war with each other plenty - notable mentions include the roles of displacement wars in the Thule expansion and the role of Thule versus Thule feuds in destroying the remnants of the Norse in Greenland.

I think it's more that Thule fighting Thule doesn't change the basic fact of Thule dominance in the Arctic that makes these fights less important when discussing the expansion and evolution of the culture, so DValdron emphasizes them less.

I believe that in the Old World, many civilizations arose independently, then there was a time of drastic transition--a veritable Dark Age, in which most of these ancient foundational societies collapsed and then were gradually rebuilt--on a new model, one with only mythic memories, filtered by priesthoods beholden to Big Man patrons, of what went before. This was, I believe, a state change, analogous to a solid melting to a liquid or a gas condensing, after it we have civilization as we know it.

My own impression, generalizing from my readings across history and anthropology, is that the idea of adopting permanent organization is not one that naturally sits well with people - the switch from having temporarily elected war-leaders to a permanent military hierarchy seems to be one of the most difficult steps in the shift of society over history. Indeed, all permanent formal social organizations seem to have struggled to come about. My impression is that people generally prefer informal hierarchies that are formed and dissolved at need.

At the same time--there would be stubborn resistance, and the preservation of memories of a time when things were quite different. And if Thule societies are still strongly distinct, or even independent, come a time in European metasociety comparable to the shift from 18th to 19th century OTL, a romanticized but perhaps not unworkable version of the remembered Thule old ways might form part of their version of the revolutionary spirit that swept American colonies and core nations of Europe alike.

Interesting idea. We'll have to figure out what Thule society looks like by that point so we can figure out what effect it has!

You are quite correct that Greenland has been inoculated against Christianity... and westerners. The next missionary who shows up on Greenland shores is going to be crucified, and the next, and the next.

And what about the next after that, and the next after that, and the next after that, and the next after that? We are talking about a religion that considers martyrdom as a missionary to be one of those things likely to guarantee one a place in heaven.

I agree that Greenland will be a no-go area for Christian Westerners for a long time. But it may turn out to be that various Christian groups will be trying to proselytize in Greenland for longer than Greenland will be able to sustain their resistance.

And it may be that the next wave of missionary activity in Greenland comes not from Europeans but from Christianized Thule.

For Greenland itself, particularly the South and the central and lower East, I could see Manupataq essentially inventing a crude theocracy.

It would be a really, really crude theocracy. I doubt the Thule have had time to sort out solid ideas about ruling power, let alone organized religion (which isn't a matter of some guy coming down off a mountain and telling a bunch of early Bronze age level people "right, I've got an idea for how we can please God by all following the orders of the priests that live in a big city a hundred miles away", organized religion took thousands of years to develop). My bet is that a Thule theocracy would look awfully informal in terms of the "theo" and "cracy" parts of theocracy.

Darwinian response. I like that. Says it all. Tons of trial and error, a lot of people die, the survivors are the ones that stumble onto stuff that works, and spread it from there.

An important problem here is the speed of that darwinian response. For example, thousands of species are currently dying out because humans are changing the world faster than those species darwinian responses can respond. We're inside their decision loop, so to speak. The Thule are facing the same problem in dealing with the plagues and Europe - just as their southern neighbours were getting clobbered by the same problems - things will be happening too fast for them to respond to.

Worth remembering that an awful lot of the societies in the Americas were very sophisticated and capable, and when the Europeans arrived, they did an awful lot of clever things to deal with the pressures of disease and invading white men. But they couldn't do clever things FAST enough. The thing I find really heart-wrenching about Native American history is not the misfortune as such, but that they responded to the misfortune in ways that... Well... If they'd been a day sooner and had a dollar more, they've have worked great.

The same tragedies will play themselves out in the Thule territories. I really don't see how pre-plague Thule society can emerge out the other side without being completely broken. The advantage that the Thule have is that their toolkit and harsh environment mean that it is very likely that it will be Thule rebuilding a new Thule society on the ashes, rather than English or Spanish settlers building a new England or Spain in the depopulated lands.

fasquardon
 
OTLs Inuit often didn't side-step problems. They often starved. They lived in a very marginal environment where alot could go wrong. Often alot did go wrong, and family groups would be decimated or simply annihilated.

Good answers generally. Thanks.


I agree that Greenland will be a no-go area for Christian Westerners for a long time. But it may turn out to be that various Christian groups will be trying to proselytize in Greenland for longer than Greenland will be able to sustain their resistance.

Could be. There's nothing inevitable about Christianity or Christianization.


It would be a really, really crude theocracy. I doubt the Thule have had time to sort out solid ideas about ruling power, let alone organized religion (which isn't a matter of some guy coming down off a mountain and telling a bunch of early Bronze age level people "right, I've got an idea for how we can please God by all following the orders of the priests that live in a big city a hundred miles away", organized religion took thousands of years to develop). My bet is that a Thule theocracy would look awfully informal in terms of the "theo" and "cracy" parts of theocracy.

Yeah, but Manupataq may go on a savonarola, she may put the 'crazy' part in theocracy.


An important problem here is the speed of that darwinian response. For example, thousands of species are currently dying out because humans are changing the world faster than those species darwinian responses can respond. We're inside their decision loop, so to speak. The Thule are facing the same problem in dealing with the plagues and Europe - just as their southern neighbours were getting clobbered by the same problems - things will be happening too fast for them to respond to.

Worth remembering that an awful lot of the societies in the Americas were very sophisticated and capable, and when the Europeans arrived, they did an awful lot of clever things to deal with the pressures of disease and invading white men. But they couldn't do clever things FAST enough. The thing I find really heart-wrenching about Native American history is not the misfortune as such, but that they responded to the misfortune in ways that... Well... If they'd been a day sooner and had a dollar more, they've have worked great.

The Thule have four relatively unique advantages compared to most of the Columbian cultures: 1) Numbers; 2) Geography, lots of it; 3) Horsepower to spare; 4) Slow period agriculture. They might make it.
 
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My question currently is: When will we get to Ataneq Sinnektomanerk Hey Nuna, Emperor of Thule?

Well, I'm thinking if he shows up, he's probably about a hundred, or a hundred and fifty years off. Or he may never show up, retconned out of existence.

I am, however, thinking that the European powers will confront a Hudson Bay based Empire with impressive geographical scope and influence, which will make that claim.

But it's not about the destination, it's about the journey. Are you having fun?
 
Time for a Poll

Of sorts. I've been looking forward to killing lots and lots of people. But that may or may not happen, I'm kind of throwing it out for discussion.

In looking over this timeline, I think sometimes people are taken aback by how far and how fast I've moved events. For myself, I've struggled to be conservative, and in some cases, I've found myself dragged kicking and screaming into events.

Thule metallurgy is a case in point. I'd have been happy enough to leave the Thule as a basically neolithic civilization - lots of stone, stone is good enough. Giving the Thule copper or bronze or iron seemed rather wankish to me. But then, it turns out in OTL that the Copper Inuit had been working the stuff for a thousand years, and that over in Greenland, there was iron working from a couple of unique events - the Cape York Meteor, and the telluric iron deposits around Disko bay. That stuff is actually OTL, establishing that the historical inuit, or groups among them, were metalworkers.

So, I'm stuck with that right. And I've painted myself into a corner, where there are much higher population densities, high rates of exchange and trade, and a large degree of cultural flux and innovation. So I'm trapped. It's pretty inevitable that the Copper Inuit are going to move on to smelting copper, because the melting temperature is so damned low and the demand is going to be much broader and more intense. And if there's sources of tin anywhere in the region... which there are... there's going to be some stumbling onto bronze. Kinda sucks, but there you are.

My original approach to the Norse interchange was: They are all dead by the time the Thule got there. Which would have simplified things terrifically. But... historically, in OTL, the Norse hung on quite a bit longer than I wanted them too, and I had to cope with that.

Then there are the Sea Thule, who came about largely because I kept slamming down some guy who wanted to talk about sea voyages, and the deeper and harder I looked the more viable it seemed.

If I had my druthers, I'd have been pretty okay with an illiterate, stone working peasant culture just starting out. In a sense, the Thule keep running away from me, going further and climbing higher than I planned.

Mostly, in making decisions, I've tried to be extremely rigorous in prohibiting leaps into the view. No developments without foundations or precedents. Take Caribou domestication - there's already a foundation of dogs in heavy use as draft animals, and the precedent of several north Asian or north European cultures domesticating or semi-domesticating reindeer. No rabbits are pulled out of asses. Everywhere, basic principles, basic cultural practices are identified or established, and then we build logically on them A to B to C... Even such outre things as pseudo-domestication of walrus and beluga arise naturally (though not inevitably in those cases) out of generalization of a successful agricultural/domestication toolkit which has developed for centuries.

On the whole, I have with one exception, refused to allow myself geniuses. The Dene Princess, Grandfather, Manupataq, the Walrus Shamans, none of them are geniuses. What they are is smart people, often smart people in the right place at the right time, but they're simply smart people who have a situation and a set of cultural tools available to them, and they make use of it.

The one exception is the Ptarmigan Woman - she makes the nearly impossible intuitive leap to treat a species of wild bird as tantamount to a plant crop, and then through a combination of focus, perserverance, concentration and hard work manages to create a domesticated microlivestock - something without precedent or foundation. She's not someone who built a better mousetrap, the magnitude of her accomplishment, is that she came up with the very concept of a mousetrap and built the first ones, and really good ones they were. Genius. She's the one genius I've allowed to the Thule.

So, now.... I'm thinking maybe.... just maybe... allowing the Thule another genius.

The downside is that if I do, it might mean that millions of people might not die, and there may be some fairly big butterflies.

Whattaya think?
 
All right, so what's this genius going to do?

Ever hear of Variolation? It's an early form of smallpox inoculation or vaccination. Dried or treated smallpox scabs were ground to powder and inserted into the body in different ways. The chinese stuffed it up the nose, other cultures introduced it to small cuts or scratches. The bottom line was that the victim was infected with a weakened form of smallpox, endured a mild fever for a couple of weeks, and was immune thereafter. It wasn't perfect, there was a mortality rate of at least 1%.

Variolation's history seems patchy. It might possibly date back to as early as 800 CE in India. It was practiced in China beginning somewhere from about 1000 to 1400 CE onwards. Variolation also shows up in the middle east and africa, although the methodology is quite different from China in both cases, and somewhat differentt from each other. Interestingly, the technique was introduced to North America in the 18th century by black slaves.

From the descriptions of variolation as practices by slaves imported to America, or as practiced in the Sudan or middle east, there doesn't seem to be anything about the technique that would be beyond the ability of the Thule.

European medicine learned of variolation as early as the sixteenth century, and dismissed it as superstition and foklore. It didn't catch on with Europeans until the 1700's. Even then, the practice was monopolised by Physicians who introduced a couple of improvements: Really deep traumatic incisions and severe bloodletting. All of which makes me wonder about European medicine: WTF! Right? Europeans must have had the worst healers on the planet! Letting a Doctor near you was like a death wish.

Anyway, from my reading on variolation, its not at all clear whether there was a single unique discovery, which simply made its way from culture to culture - from India, to China and then to the Middle East, into North Africa and then Equatorial Africa. Or whether there were multiple inventions, possibly as many as four or more unique discoveries.

Personally, given the differences in technique, I'm inclined to think that there were at least two inventions of variolation. Possibly three, because I think that its a very improbable cultural chain of transmission for a middle eastern technique to make its way to the coastal west african population that was being taken for the North American slave trade.

That's significant because unique discoveries are a lot more improbable to reproduce than recurrent ones. Agriculture has been independently discovered or developed at least 9 times on Earth. Metallurgy six or seven times. Gunpowder... once only. If we are prepared to assume that different cultures independently came up with variolation on at least three occasions, then its not a big stretch to suggest that a fourth independent invention is possible. If it was just a one time flash in the pan gift from the gods, well, that's tough.

Of course, the thing with invention, is that it is hit or miss. The Europeans never came up with variolation independently - apparently because we had the worst Doctors on earth. The native Americans of OTL never came up with variolation, probably because they were dying way too fast and never quite got their feet under them.

So, the question is... Could the Thule develop variolation on their own, and if they could, would it help?

Assuming it was done repeatedly elsewhere, but wasn't done universally, I'd say it was possible, but not guaranteed. It would take something between a very smart person in the right place and with the right tools, or a genius.

I'm not sure if a smart person would fit the bill, i'm unsure of what tools or foundations Thule Shaman's had for their healing/mysticism, and whether they could build on that to get to variolation.

I suppose the question is, in terms of attempting to commune with spirits, did the Thule Shamans induce sickness in themselves. The Amanita mushroom, I'm told, is a pretty toxic item. So if the gateway to visions and spiritual power is to ingest stuff that makes you violently ill, induces fevers, vomitting, etc., then it's possible that there might be a 'hair of the dog that bit you' tradition among Shamans. Faced with an invasion of powerful evil spirits, a Shaman might try to defend with sympathetic magic - exposing himself or others to the signs of the spirits. The route to mystical experiences often involves trauma - flagellation, fasting, various forms of stress or torture, but here the particular kinds and types of doing the self a nasty to get to higher consciousness might be critical. A gentle hallucinogen like Peyote or Psilocybin may not be whats needed here.

The OTL Inuit (and particularly their relatives the Aleut) did have a tradition of tattooing, pricking the skin with needles for mystic or social purposes. So it's possible to imagine a Medicine Man who has internalized the concept of sympathetic magic and inducing bodily torment to strengthen the ability to deal with spirits, developing a specialized variolation/tattooing technique.

Of course, its possible that even with the right foundation in place, medicine men could miss out on it entirely. Likely in fact. The discovery is not that common.

Or we could have a near miss - ie, variolation is tried, but because of some defect in the process (say, burning scabs to ash rather than powdering them and therefore losing all effectiveness) or other part of the healing technique (like making a really deep incision to encourage opportunistic infections and then bleeding the victim unconscious) it ends up being ineffective or counterproductive.

I'm thinking you would need a genius with the intuition, inspiration and persistence to come up with the idea and make it work effectively. It doesn't seem to me the sort of thing that the Thule could successfully creep up on with the parameters available to them. It's get it right early, or miss the boat entirely.

Of course, given literacy, and the practice of exchange of letters among Shaman, if an effective variolation is developed, it has every chance to spread quickly. As or more quickly than the pandemics.

The trick of course, is that variolation does no good whatsoever if you've already got smallpox. You're a gonner (or not, depending on luck and immune system). It's strictly a preventative measure. So you'd have to talk people into it who don't have it yet... there'd be a distinct lack of motivation. On the other hand, if there's a social panic about a runaway pandemic coming your way, or if you're standing in the middle of a pandemic and you haven't been infected yet... then variolation and hiding out for a couple of weeks might be a good bet.

And of course, people still die. 1% is the usual number, but the Thule are a naive population, so likely let's say 5%. Since most outbreaks of variolation are likely to be just before or in the midst of smallpox epidemics we might see mortality as high as 15%. But a mortality of 15% is immeasurably better than a mortality rate of 50% to 90%.

There's a couple of other wrinkles. Variolated immunity to smallpox won't help you against Typhus or Measles or the other diseases that are part of the pandemics.

That might make things difficult - a lot of these diseases have superficially the same trajectories in terms of similar opening symptoms, progressions, and development of sores or pustules. Unsophisticated people (and that's what the Thule are with this stuff - they don't have enough experience to be sophisticated) might not be able to distinguish measles from typhus from smallpox. This may undercut the credibility of variolation in some cases.

It depends on how fast or how effectively the Thule catch on that there's not just one pandemic disease, but several. That's another argument that calls for a genius, and a lucky one.

Of course, smallpox is the big killer - stopping smallpox or at least taking the wind out of its sails probably makes a big difference in and of itself. And people who are not weakened surviving a smallpox attack are in better shape, health-wise, to fight off measles or typhus.

And it may be possible to variolate against other diseases than smallpox. I'm not sure about this at all. Smallpox, as I understand it, is uniquely receptive to variolation because the disease is extremely stable and has low mutation rates. But similar tactics or techniques might be effective against some of the other pandemic diseases.

So, overall, I think if the Thule hit on variolation in the first decade or so of the introduction of pandemics to the mainland, there's a very good chance that things will turn out very differently.

What do you think? Opinions? Assessments? If there's someone more knowledgable, or more researched on the subject, I'd love to hear from them...
 
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But you would agree with me that fever, illness, dehydration, starvation and trauma induced altered brain chemistry trips occurring during the middle of a pandemic where you get to watch your entire family die around you or witness dead children laying in the streets unattended being eaten by dogs gone feral.... probably won't be producing happy trips.

The new wave of mystical experience produced by a pandemic may be a pretty scary thing overall.

Yes, most definitely. They are going to be a pretty grim bunch. I'm talking more about what comes after.


Anyway, I hope that I don't offend you with my relentlessly pragmatic approach to the mystical experience. Subjectively, these experiences are real and valid to those who experience them, and often full of profound meaning.

You're not offending me at all, I think we actually have pretty similar views. I'm just trying to provide some more detail.

~variolation~

IDK; this just seems like a bridge too far to me. The Thule have been way, way, luckier than the rest of the Americas in so many things already. I don't think it has a good chance to catch on, either; epidemics are sporadic enough that if you inoculate for one disease, you're liable to be killed by another or by something else before the last one comes back again. So putting this to the test is going to be hard. And all sorts of shamans are going to be throwing all sorts of spurious cures around the correspondence network. I think if anyone discovers it, it's going to be drowned out in noise.

The meme that the plague = Christ spirit also discourages this, since that would seem to suggest that these plagues are all one spirit, which would discredit inoculation the minute a new plague hits the population.
 
Could be. There's nothing inevitable about Christianity or Christianization.

Indeed not. I think it is most likely that the majority of Thule by 2000 are Christians, but that isn't to say that other potential outcomes are without chance.

I've even been trying to work out how Muslim or Buddhist Thule could come about...

I think Thule Shamanism (or at least an evolution of it, much like the Ghost Dance evolved out of the previous spiritual practices) will survive into the modern era, if only because I don't think there will be enough time between intense contact (which I am betting will start in the 1700s some time) and the modern day for other traditions to completely out-compete it. And Thule Shamanism will certainly be responding to encroaching traditions. There is some chance that it remains the dominant form of spirituality in Thule lands. But I think that is highly unlikely - it is more likely to have declined to a minority religion. Even the highly successful Ghost Dance spirituality was only able to slow the Christian penetration of the Southern tribes...

Time for a Poll
OK...

One of the things with geniuses is that we are getting more and more evidence that genius isn't anything magical - it's just people who practice something alot (usually because maths, music, physics or whatever is a game to them and so they constantly do it for fun). That makes it worth asking: are the Thule at the point of development where they can develop a genius of a certain sort? Is there enough of a medical foundation that there will be Thule playing with ideas?

With regards to variolation, I see several problems:

1) The centers of invention you mention - India, China, possibly the Middle East/North Africa - these are all places of dense population and whose medical skill set was at the very cutting edge of human practice. The Thule have neither high population densities nor thousands of years of bona fide medical science.

2) Variolation is risky - particularly early smallpox variolation. It risks infecting the patient for real. In a virgin population, it is going to infect LOTS of patients for real. And kill them.

I think the best thing the Thule could invent for dealing with the plagues is a system of fast and efficient quarantine.

fasquardon
 
Indeed not. I think it is most likely that the majority of Thule by 2000 are Christians, but that isn't to say that other potential outcomes are without chance.

I just don't see it.

I've even been trying to work out how Muslim or Buddhist Thule could come about...

LOL. I don't see that either.

I think Thule Shamanism (or at least an evolution of it, much like the Ghost Dance evolved out of the previous spiritual practices) will survive into the modern era, if only because I don't think there will be enough time between intense contact (which I am betting will start in the 1700s some time) and the modern day for other traditions to completely out-compete it. And Thule Shamanism will certainly be responding to encroaching traditions. There is some chance that it remains the dominant form of spirituality in Thule lands. But I think that is highly unlikely - it is more likely to have declined to a minority religion. Even the highly successful Ghost Dance spirituality was only able to slow the Christian penetration of the Southern tribes...

Well that was in the context of the continual subjugation of the Southern Tribes. Christianity did a relatively poor job of displacing Animist faiths in Africa, and made very little headway displacing Hindu polytheism, establishing itself only as a middling presence in India. In French indo-china a hundred years of colonialism produced only a Christian minority. In Thailand... not much. Christianity had a minority presence in pre-communist China.


One of the things with geniuses is that we are getting more and more evidence that genius isn't anything magical - it's just people who practice something alot (usually because maths, music, physics or whatever is a game to them and so they constantly do it for fun).

I will disagree here. I don't believe in magic or mysticism, and that's been pretty clear. Nor do I believe that 'genius' is capable of magical feats. Leonardo Da Vinci was not going to be building a sports car.

Nevertheless, there is a genuine intangible quality that for want of a better word we will call genius which is distinct from simply being smart or driven. If I had to define it, I would call it the ability to take what appears to be an intuitive conceptual leap which is not previously apparent and are able to incorporate that intuitive leap into conceptual frameworks.

Human progress or human activity is incremental in nature. Think of it using the analogy of road construction. Humans build roads in an incremental fashion, by continually adding bricks to the end of the road, continually extending it further. A genius is someone who, at the end of the road, comes up with the idea and technique to build a bridge. In one sense, it's still an incremental addition within the framework of the culture, but there's a qualitative difference.

I think in the modern era, geniuses are increasingly rare in sciences and technology, simply because the accumulated volume of incremental progress and knowledge is so utterly vast. Prior leaps of genius are simply long buried, and incorporated as yet another incremental tool.

And I'll agree that concentration and persistence, something which leads to or overlaps with high degrees of training, accompany genius. But that in itself does not produce genius, rather, it seems to be a symptom. It is easy to have hyper-trained persons who are not genius, or even not particularly smart.

Personally, I am an extraordinarily smart person. Nothing arrogant about that, it's just one of those things, no more distinctive or meaningful than hair colour or freckles, height or body mass. I am also a highly trained person, both academically and in a variety of physical skills.

In my life, I've met a large number of very smart people, including several smarter than me. And I've met a large number of highly trained people, including much more than a few who were better trained than I was.

I have met one genius. I could tell the difference.


That makes it worth asking: are the Thule at the point of development where they can develop a genius of a certain sort? Is there enough of a medical foundation that there will be Thule playing with ideas?

That's the question I'm wondering about.

In recent previous posts on Shamanism, I have emphasized the 'medical' component to magic and mysticism, that a major part of any shamanic or religious or mystical tradition involved healing. Indeed, this tradition is extremely persistent.

In northern Canada, there is still a lot of currency and confidence placed by aboriginal people in 'Native Healers', up to and including the point where state funded health providers will cover the costs of seeing 'Native Healers.'

Often such 'Native Healing' is psychological or spiritual in nature and content, but it does include prescribing and providing actual medicines and cures for actual physical ailments. I've accompanied a Chief on a trip to a traditional healer, who then purchased a gallon of healing tea for a physical ailment.

I suppose that this opens the discussion in all sorts of ways. But I'll keep the point narrow. The nature of the Thule Shamanic tradition, as in every pre-industrial mystical tradition has a large component of healing.

To this, I'll add a second and third point. That the Thule Shamanic tradition as a result of the emergence of its own infectious cross-species diseases, and cross-species diseases between animals has a better grasp of infectious diseases than any other new world culture.

Third, and this is something I've pointed out recently, Shamanic tradition, like any mystical tradition (including Christianity, Islam and Buddhism), incorporates forcing or inducing altered states of consciousness, which are sometimes associated with enabling or facilitating intuitive leaps.

So its arguable that the pieces are all laying around in the culture.

Finally, I'll note that from my reading, the technology of variolation is well within the boundaries of traditional folk medicine, and in terms of practice, there's nothing in it that's outside the abilities of Thule practitioners.


With regards to variolation, I see several problems:

1) The centers of invention you mention - India, China, possibly the Middle East/North Africa - these are all places of dense population and whose medical skill set was at the very cutting edge of human practice. The Thule have neither high population densities nor thousands of years of bona fide medical science.

West Africa.

In terms of my assessment of cultural transmission, I think that there's a good argument for an east-west transmission between India and the middle east. You had a large volume of trade, goods, ideas and people going back and forth, and you had Arab traders actually travelling back and forth. It's relatively easy to trace the movement of memes from India into the middle east in a number of cases. So, while it's possible that middle eastern variolation was an independent invention, its also very possible that its a cultural transmission.

West Africa, to my thinking, is a much more persuasive case for an independent invention of variolation simply because the pathway of cultural transmission is so attenuated. We don't have anywhere close to the documented volume of travel and trade, of the movement of memes, and cultural exchange. So the technique seems to stand out.

West Africa's medical skill set is not the product of thousands of years of medical science at the cutting edge of medical practice.

In any event, the technique itself is not contingent upon a vast body of accumulated incremental medical knowledge and technique. There are technologies and practices that do have those requirements - forms of surgery, such as removing an appendix as an example - it takes a great deal of accumulated incremental medical knowledge and technique to open a body cavity, manage to avoid cutting or damaging something vital, like an artery or an organ, accomplish anything, and not have the patient die of trauma or opportunistic infections. Or as another example, developing a specific medical instrument like a hypodermic needle.

In contrast, variolation can be accomplished with stone age technology and relatively low levels of skill and training. It can be done by folk medicine.

So the issue is, 'Can they?' 'Will they?'


2) Variolation is risky - particularly early smallpox variolation. It risks infecting the patient for real. In a virgin population, it is going to infect LOTS of patients for real. And kill them.

Indeed. Mortality rates are universally acknowledged, the general number is 1%. Given that the Thule are a naive/virgin population, in my discussion, I chose to increase that number fivefold to 5%. I've also suggested that in the likely circumstances where you would have widespread variolation - ie, with a pandemic and panic close at hand, you'r mortality rate would be even higher - 15%. So this is factored in.

I'm even prepared to acknowledge the likelihood of at least a few local variolation induced epidemics. Of course, variolation would tend to occur under very controlled circumstances which would reduce the likelihood of outbreak.


I think the best thing the Thule could invent for dealing with the plagues is a system of fast and efficient quarantine.

I think that their prior experience with infectious diseases among people and animals gives them that intellectual tool. Having said that, we have a lot of cultural experience with quarantines OTL which exposes the limits of the technique. Quarantines are things that often work better in theory than in practice.

In real terms, there's a large number of factors that evade quarantine - asymptomatic carriers, early infectious and long infectious periods which can precede quarantine, secondary infection - like being downwind from the infection center of an airborne pathogen, or contact with things like blankets or utensils for a touch transmitted pathogen, or spread through such things as fleas.

Quarantines are certainly effective, and they are orders of magnitude better than nothing, but they're also far from perfect.

Factoring in quarantine and effective palliative care to mitigate fatality, I still come up with big numbers.
 
IDK; this just seems like a bridge too far to me. The Thule have been way, way, luckier than the rest of the Americas in so many things already.

I've noted my own issues on this point.

I don't think it has a good chance to catch on, either; epidemics are sporadic enough that if you inoculate for one disease, you're liable to be killed by another or by something else before the last one comes back again.

This is something I'm continuing to struggle with. The trajectories of the pandemics are far from uniform. Some spread fast and wide. Some spread slow. Some burn out locally. There seem to be recurrent local introduction vectors. It's tricky to figure out what happened in the new world in detail, and then try to model that onto the Thule.


So putting this to the test is going to be hard. And all sorts of shamans are going to be throwing all sorts of spurious cures around the correspondence network. I think if anyone discovers it, it's going to be drowned out in noise.

There will definitely be a noise ratio. I would divide that up as follows: 1) stuff that is actually harmful - that will purge itself out fairly rapidly; 2) stuff that helps or produces a detectable difference - that will probably be picked up and spread and subject to a lot of trial and error experimentation and innovation; 3) stuff that doesn't help or hurt, also will be picked up and spread and subject to a lot of trial and error experimentation - it will purge out, but much more slowly.

You will also get two threads: 1) exclusive treatments - ie, do this and only this; 2) non-exclusive treatments - try this along with other stuff that you like to do or want to try.

Significance attributed to treatments will be variable on the status of the Shaman who is promoting a treatment. High status or famous Shaman's get a lot of press. Obscure ones will get less. A spectacular success or apparent success will get a lot of attention.

I think that the Thule system will winnow out a result in time. The question is, would there be enough time?

The meme that the plague = Christ spirit also discourages this, since that would seem to suggest that these plagues are all one spirit,

You may be treating 'evil spirit theory' as exactly equivalent to 'disease theory.' I'm not sure that's the case. In OTL, smallpox was not distinguished from measles until about 900 CE. In this ATL, I can almost guarantee that the Thule will be slow to distinguish between things like Typhus, Smallpox, Measles etc.

In terms of conceptualization of the pandemics, it strikes me that the Thule approach to disease or illness previously has been closer to demonic possession than a god-driven curse. An ill person has been afflicted with a malignant spirit on an individual basis, and while the malignant spirit may have generally recognized features, its an individual. The relationship of individual spirits to great ones is ambiguous.

which would discredit inoculation the minute a new plague hits the population.

That's just not the way the human mind works. Human nature tends to discount failures and focus on successes in making choices. That's the entire premise of the gambling industry.
 
I'd like to write a piece about how the "shaman class" transitioned to a real aristocracy in different ways in different Thule regions starting around 1550.

My idea is this:
Greenland Thule and East Coast Thule, plague prevention methods evolve into civil control. European ideas brought by Thule fleeing from trade-posts provide the model of the Catholic Church and primogeniture as means of consolidating power. In a generation, particular families of shamans have set themselves up as Quarantine Masters, ruling by divine right over their Quarantine areas in a system very much like feudal principalities.

Central Thule: A widening gap between "profane" shamans (presiding over pragmatic herding, agriculture, and medicine) and "sacred" sparks a crisis of faith. The sacred shamans end up on top and centralize power into a priestly caste, genealogically cut off from the rest of the population. A spiritual figurehead (call him pharaoh or mikado) is arbitrarily chosen to give the yokels something to worship, but the real power lies in the heads of the various priesthoods, which coalesce around particular political ideologies and specialties. The Thule pantheon evolves from a loose ecosystem of nature spirits to a council of squabbling Powers, with their own factions and goals mirroring the priests who represent them. On the lower levels, class becomes caste as merchant-shamans, agricultural shamans, herder-shamans, medicine-shamans, warriors, and peasants start restricting their lore to family members.

Alaskan and Siberian Thule: A similar bid for power among the shamans of the western frontier backfires horribly when the powerful Military Streams rebel. For a few years, shamans are outlawed entirely across the Bering Strait, and even when they're allowed back across, it's at the sufferance of the Warlords. A push-back by the Chukchi during this confusion necessitates the coalition of several warlords under a single Commander-in-Chief, who starts on a path toward a military expansionist empire.

And then the Eurasian plagues come in and disrupt everything.

What do you guys think?
 
I'd like to write a piece about how the "shaman class" transitioned to a real aristocracy in different ways in different Thule regions starting around 1550.

My idea is this:
Greenland Thule and East Coast Thule, plague prevention methods evolve into civil control. European ideas brought by Thule fleeing from trade-posts provide the model of the Catholic Church and primogeniture as means of consolidating power. In a generation, particular families of shamans have set themselves up as Quarantine Masters, ruling by divine right over their Quarantine areas in a system very much like feudal principalities.

Central Thule: A widening gap between "profane" shamans (presiding over pragmatic herding, agriculture, and medicine) and "sacred" sparks a crisis of faith. The sacred shamans end up on top and centralize power into a priestly caste, genealogically cut off from the rest of the population. A spiritual figurehead (call him pharaoh or mikado) is arbitrarily chosen to give the yokels something to worship, but the real power lies in the heads of the various priesthoods, which coalesce around particular political ideologies and specialties. The Thule pantheon evolves from a loose ecosystem of nature spirits to a council of squabbling Powers, with their own factions and goals mirroring the priests who represent them. On the lower levels, class becomes caste as merchant-shamans, agricultural shamans, herder-shamans, medicine-shamans, warriors, and peasants start restricting their lore to family members.

Alaskan and Siberian Thule: A similar bid for power among the shamans of the western frontier backfires horribly when the powerful Military Streams rebel. For a few years, shamans are outlawed entirely across the Bering Strait, and even when they're allowed back across, it's at the sufferance of the Warlords. A push-back by the Chukchi during this confusion necessitates the coalition of several warlords under a single Commander-in-Chief, who starts on a path toward a military expansionist empire.

And then the Eurasian plagues come in and disrupt everything.

What do you guys think?

I'll let this run in discussion. The only comment I'd make is the unlikelihood of Shaman's being outlawed entirely across the Bering Strait. That's about as unlikely as a medieval European power evicting the Catholic Church and Catholic Priests and Monks from their territory.

There's basically a couple of things to keep in mind. First, the Shamanic tradition is an indigenous one - Shaman's aren't being sent out from Thule central, and their authority isn't derived from the Shaman-Pope. Rather, they're local boys and girls, tied into local networks, who arise and become powers of various degrees.

Second, the Shamanic tradition by this time has diversified strongly, and although it's not clear whether they've identified themselves as specialties, or have backdoor specialization in terms of which great or influential leader they follow, they're pretty tightly integrated in Thule life - particularly things like agriculture, literacy and key aspects.

So getting rid of the Shamans by murder or exile would be suicidal. Chopping ones own feet off, and undercutting a lot of the professional and logistical support you need to carry on war.

In any event, its not like that would do a lot of good in terms of social leadership. Shamans aren't really organized hierarchically, not like the Catholic Church. Rather, its similar to the Shiite Ayatollahs, you have certain Shamans who through dint of scholarship, charisma, miraculous works and surpassing knowledge and ability get famous and attract a following. Other Shamans defer to or sign up for the famous guy because he represents their views effectively, he's extremely persuasive, and they want to partake of his magic and influence. It's a very personal kind of authority, not bureaucratic or regimented in nature.

You're looking for warlord rule... I think that would tend to happen naturally. Guys who are good at the practicalities of moving and organizing men and supplies and killing other people. Societies elevate people according to its priorities, and for the Siberians, war is a big priority. A caste or class of war leaders will naturally supplant Shamanic dominance, gradually or quickly. The most resistant shamans will get killed.

The ones who do best will ally with and support war leaders in subordinate roles. There's a lot of positives to that - power behind the throne and all that. Lack of personal risk. Ability to rise in the reflected glory of your local version of King Arthur, and relative immunity or plausible deniability if he fails. So think Merlin, or Cardinal Richelieu.

Actually, this gets us into a dichotomy I've been working with. Where does power come from in a society? Stripped down to its essence - power is a function of either person or resources (land, animals or people). Shaman's as a class are people who exercise personal power - their power is based in their identity as Shamans, in their intelligence and skill, their reputation, their mystical and practical abilities. However, other constituencies may have power based in more tangible things - land or animals say, its more durable, easier to control or organize people by offering them shares or payments. So my read of Thule society is that you are getting secular classes emerging, big landholders, big herdsmen, or families which command inordinate resources. What I'm saying is that it isn't all Shamans. They are at the cutting edge of social transformation, so they get a lot of press. But they're not the only thing there.

A couple of other comments on Siberia.

The great advantage of the Siberian Thule is that they can draw on an apparently limitless source of manpower. Chains and ties of obligation allow them to organize in larger and larger numbers, drawing all the way back to Alaska. That's because they're using a variation of the Alaskan pseudo-feudal system of alliance and obligation, and are tied into Alaskan networks. It's also because for Alaska, Siberia is the safety valve - all the excess population, the landless second or third sons, the surplus daughters, the people that you just didn't want in the community, the losers in power struggles, the displaced and dispossessed tend to funnel into Siberia, which is considered essentially empty land... well, empty except for a few natives to sweep aside.

So the big strength is the Alaskan connection. When or if that breaches or attenuates, the potential dynamics change, and Siberian Thule society will change.

The other comment I'm going to make is that when the Thule encounter the expanding Russians, its going to be an unpleasant shock. An unwelcome one, because in addition to diseases, the Russians have firearms and cannon and gunpowder... things the Siberian Thule simply have no ability to manufacture.

Howeover, the Siberian Thule do have qviat, roseroot, furs and from the New Siberian Islands, immense quantities of mammoth ivory. So when British, or French or whoever starts sailing up the Pacific Coast, the first and most important questions the Siberian Thule will have are: 'Can we buy your guns?' The second will be 'Can you go get us more?'
 
Greenland - 1550 Onwards

* The great measles pandemic is over, but with summer, lingering cases break out, precipitating new rounds of terror, particularly in the south until about 1553.

* Through much of the range of the disease, lowered population densities and large number of immune survivors inhibit the spread. In this environment Manupataq's prescriptions for draconian quarantine and palliative care are effective.

* Each minor outbreak, however, involves Manupataq who is summoned to the scene to work her magic. Manupataq, who is an immune survivor, is fearless in entering afflicted homes and communities, providing care to the afflicted and enforcing proscriptions.

* Manupataq, now relocated in the south is considered an imminent Shaman, and many other Shaman's travel to her to pledge fealty or to learn or partake in her magic, though many reconsider after getting to know her.

* Manupataq is, however, an extremely charismatic public speaker and increasingly large pilgrimages begin travelling to see her. Over the next few years, she will address audiences as large as ten or fifteen thousand. To support such vast audiences, and an increasing entourage, she demands and receives substantial tribute from the pilgrims.

* 1553, tensions between Manupataq and rival senior Shamans in the south comes to a head when the Shamans Puyuk, Thorhair, and Atpaqak join to denounce her. The situation worsens over the summer months, as a number of southern Shamans line up behind the trio and against the 'disrespectful girl'. A confrontation at one of her pilgrim's speeches escalates to violence. After this, some pilgrims are attacked and robbed as they travel. On the other side, many families repudiate their local shamans for breaking with Manupataq. Most of the conflicts are in the south, the east coast, having suffered heavily is highly sympathetic.

* During one of the last outbreaks, Manupataq challenges the triumvirate to prove their magic in the afflicted community. Following her prescriptions, upon first sign of the disease, the crucifix was raised and all travel out of the community was forbidden. The disease has been confined to the village. The Shaman's Puyuk and Thorhair travel to the village along with Manupataq. After 22 hours of nonstop chanting and dancing, Puyuk falls, he is eventually afflicted and dies. Thorhair also falls ill, and terrified, begs Manupataq to save him. He recovers. Atpaqak who did not attend, is disgraced.


* She surrounds herself with a class of warriors and herdsmen, young men furious in their loyalty, without talent as Shamans - Acolytes. Their mission is to protect pilgrims, do violence upon her detractors and enemies, to extract and guard tribute, and to travel upon her orders. She also gathers a handful of young apprentices as True Shamans, and largely invalidates the authority of many of the existing Shamans - only those like Thorhair who pledge absolute loyalty are tolerated, and most of those with suspicion.

* Manupataq, at the behest of followers, begins to travel north, retracing her steps. She is followed by a host - apprentices, acolytes, pilgrims. People join and depart, some following for a thousand miles, some for a dozen.

* As she moves up the coast worst hit by the pandemic she encounters decimated villages, some with only a dozen or so survivors. She pronounces decimated village as cursed, relocating village sites by fiat, combining villages, endorsing land claims, granting land claims by survivors, awarding lands to her followers or to herdsmen, settling disputes. In all of this, stung by the attacks of her rival shamans in the South, she demands complete personal fealty or loyalty from everyone who comes before her. Having come from the herdsmen subculture, her influence is particularly strong there.

* There has not been contact between Europeans and Greenlanders since the pandemic. Inspired by Manupataq's speeches and writings, Greenlanders have either attacked with arrows or fled from the presence of Europeans. The pilgrimage does find signs and campsites that are believe to indicate the presence of European ships. These traces arouse Manupataq to paranoid fury.

* In 1554 in the South, a Danish trading mission makes land and establishes a relationship with a southern community of Iqluluk, although contact is brief, the Danes return in the spring of 1555, establishing a trading post. Manupataq learns of this and in the fall begins to travel south.

* In 1556, Manupataq and her pilgrims and acolytes, arrives at Iqluluk. As pilgrims gather from around the region, she makes a great speech denouncing the Europeans as bringers of death and misery. However, for the first time in years, she has resistance, as the heads of some local families who have benefitted from commerce with the Danes argue. It is deferential argument, but it is argument. Following this, she commences a course of chanting and dance to drive the Europeans away. Finally, she has her acolytes kill everyone in the village, slaughter the Danes and burn their ship.

* Manupataq issues a decree forbidding any European contact, or any person trading with a European, on pain of death. She confers authority upon her acolytes to carry out her decree, enlists a number of new acolytes, and sends half of them up and down the coasts, from village to village to carry the news of her decree.

* Over the next few years, through to 1560, more decrees come. Decrees forbidding interference with her acolytes. Decrees demanding that her acolytes be given food and shelter. Decrees calling for tribute. Decrees appointing 'legitimate' Shamans, and Decrees depriving legitimacy from other Shamans. She appoints lieutenants and sends them to do her will. As the memory of pandemic fades, she incites moral panics against a dwindling collection of rivals and dissidents, and against the remnants of the previous Norse presence. Previously, Shamans have exerted power through influence - through the choice of followers to follow. Manupataq exerts obedience through threat of death.

* By 1560, Manupataq is the absolute ruler of the Greenland coast all the way up to the northern shore. In her own eyes, and the eyes of her followers, she is more than human - she is not merely a Shaman, but a spirit power in her own right - Shamans and acolytes pray to her. A class of literate scribes is empowered to keep track of tribute, to record and compile her decrees and wisdom.

* She sends expeditions to across the north to Ellesmere, and across the sea to Svalbard, to Iceland, to Baffin Island and the Labrador coast to spread her word, but without the enforcement of acolytes the effect is ... diminished.

* Manupataq was a young woman in 1549, she has a long life ahead of her...
 
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Labrador

In 1499 and 1500, Portugese explorer Joao Lavrador, together with Pero de Barcelos begins to map the northern coasts above the Grand Banks, naming the land for himself. The population is very thin with small fishing and whaling communities along the coast. There are richer and larger communities further inland, engaged in farming and sheep harvesting, but the Portugese never encounter them. The natives seem impoverished, there is little that they have that appeals to the Portugese.

Over the next fifty to sixty years, the coast is the site of temporary camps by European fishermen and whalers, mostly Basques. Emptied for the winter, these camps are scavenged down to the bone by the local Thule. There are only sporadic contacts between Europeans and Thule, as likely violent as not. The two groups have some awareness of each other, but tend to avoid direct contact.

The most notable incident is an unidentified pandemic that kills a couple of hundred people before burning out locally. The Thule survivors refer to the area as cursed. Due to avoidance of native scavenging, the area is host to repeated vists by Basques.

1546, a Hanseatic trading ship, relying upon Portugese maps, sails the coast hoping to find profitable trading with the natives. It eventually returns to the Greenland coast, coming back with nothing much.

1557, a Danish ship, rebuffed and repelled violently from Greenland, sails south on the advice of an Icelandic crewman. The Icelander speaks a fairly passable Thule/Norse dialect. Making contact with village communities, the captain and crew develop a better understanding of the structure of Thule settlement. Over the course of the summer, the ship travels up and down the coast to small communities trading for medicinal roseroot brought out from the interior.

The pattern of trade which develops is one of prolongued contact, travelling at and stopping at several villages, for several days at a time, to slowly assemble a cargo. As expectations are clarified over time, the process becomes more effective but remains time consuming. Local production of medicinal roseroot is tiny, quantities must be traded for in small lots from further upriver and into the interior. The cargo is expensive, and the total shipping is relatively small, compared to production from Iceland and Norway, itself relatively small. But the value of the commodity makes it worthwhile... somewhat.

1561, an expedition from Manpataq in Greenland reaches the Labrador coast. Manupataq's apprentices go from village to village warning of the Europeans, and receiving news of them. Word of their presence gets back to Manapataq who contemplates organizing a crusade to purge the presence, but this is beyond the logistic and organizational capacities. Instead, a few more expeditions are sent, with acolytes and apprentices preaching her word. Unfortunately, or fortunately, European contact is established, and in some coastal villages, a relatively prosperous caste of local traders is emerging, drawing medicinal roseroot and tea from the Interior, and trading European goods.

During this period, unexplained fevers or illnesses devastate occasional coastal communities. However, these always burn out before they can spread to the interior. Trade and contact increases steadily, by 1570, two or three ships are visiting. In 1570, smallpox comes, spreading to the interior...
 
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