WI Louisa Maria Teresa Stuart lived?

American Empire · Jan 20, 2013

What if Louisa Maria Teresa Stuart lived and James Francis Edward Stuart died? Both had gotten smallpox at the same time in otl he lived and she died. Would she have become Queen of Great Britain after Anne died childless? Anne hated Sophia of Hanover so Louisa could have become Queen, if she converted to Protestantism. If she did, what would her reign look like? Who would she marry? There was some talk of her marrying the future George II. Please discuss!

JedidiahStott · Jan 20, 2013

All pretty much impossible. She could not convert while her brother lived (and she was only 18 when she died, still under age).

The High Tories, who took their stand on the principle of lawful descent, could not pass over her brother , who had (by their standards) a clear better claim.

The Whigs would have had none of it, and the Act of Settlement was already locked in place.

If, somehow, she had been raised a Protestant from birth, things might have been different. But there would have been no time before the death of Anne for her to convert and establish any sort of power base .

ObWI : What if the Young Pretender dies as well as his sister ? (They both caught the small pox, she died, he lived). That means no pretenders, no Bonny Prince Charlie, no '15, no '45. It probably means a far greater Tory influence in the first half of C18, since they could no longer have the Jacobite and Papist labels flung at them. Tory support for the exiled Stuarts kept them out of effective politics, and the Whigs in power, for half a century. Remove the Stuarts, and innate Anglo-conservatism would make for a much different scene.

black angel · Jan 20, 2013

Anne was rather cut but by her half-sister's death, both her and her bother got sick with smallpox at the same time, she died and he got better, if we reverse this well:

William Legge said:
The queen [Anne] shewed me a letter wrote in the king of France's own hand, upon the death of her sister; in which there was the highest character that ever was given to any princess of her age. Mr. Richard Hill came straight from the earl of Godolphin's... to me with the news, and said it was the worst that ever came to England. I asked him why he thought so. He said it had been happy if it had been her brother; for then the queen might have sent for her and married her to prince George, who could have no pretensions during her own life; which would have pleased every honest man in the kingdom, and made an end of all disputes for the future.

American Empire · Jan 20, 2013

I changed my pod, James dies in her stead

Emperor Constantine · Jan 20, 2013

I was actually thinking of post a thread asking the same question

! I guess great minds think alike

. Anyway, if James dies in schedule and Louisa survives, then for the time being she would become the Jacobite heiress. I'm not sure how to get her from point A ( an exile in France) to point B (Queen of Great Britain), but I suppose Louisa and her mother could be invited to return to Britain by Queen Anne and for Louisa to convert to take the throne, like a reverse of Henri IV's "Paris is worth a mass". I guess we would have to make the sister smarter then the brother, since he could have converted too.

Or Louisa being returned to Britain could be a term in the Treaty of Utrecht. It would be better for her to return earlier rather then later but she could return in 1713 and have enough time for preparations to be made for the reign of Queen Louisa I.

JedidiahStott · Jan 20, 2013

She would have had a better chance than her brother : sweet young girl, chivalry, easy to manipulate, chance for me, all that stuff.

But there's only two years to do it . 1712 to 1714. And Anne was no politician. The girl herself is too young, and it would have been a tough task even for Elizabeth.

So who would manage the business? Remember, Parliament is going to have to overturn the Act of Settlement. And will people believe such a conversion is genuine, especially given her father's reputation.

Atterbury, or Ormonde would have been man enough, but lacked the smarts . Harley or Bolingbroke may have been politician enough, but would they have had the courage . Bearing in mind, that failure would almost certainly mean death as a traitor.

Remember also, conversion isn't so simple. She can't readily be brought over to England (despite Lord Dartmouth's comment) since she would quite certainly be arrested and clapped up in the Tower as soon as she landed . And she (and her brother) relied on the charity of Louis to live. Once she announces her conversion to Protestantism, she'll be out the door, penniless.

By the way, Sophie herself was still alive, and as shrewd as ever. You may be sure she won't stand idly by and see a kingdom plucked from her hands .

Marriage to George (I presume it was George of Hanover was meant) isn't totally simple since his first wife Sophie Dorothea of Celle is still alive. Although their marriage has been dissolved, would the Church Of England (which was more conservative than the Lutheran) recognize that ? I think it would at least have required an Act of Parliament.

Velasco · Jan 20, 2013

All she has to do is abjure Catholicism for the Act of Settlement to be upheld, no?

JedidiahStott · Jan 20, 2013

No, unfortunately not. That would have been sufficient for the Bill of Rights. That only required that the King (or Queen) should not be a Papist, married to one etc .

But the Act of Settlement explicitly settled the Crown on Sophie of Hanover and her descendants, (naming her) .

Act of Settlement said:
That the most excellent Princess Sophia, Electress and Duchess Dowager of Hanover, ... be and is hereby declared to be the next in succession, in the Protestant line, to the imperial Crown and dignity of the said Realms of England, France, and Ireland, with the dominions and territories thereunto belonging, after His Majesty, and the Princess Anne of Denmark, and in default of issue of the said Princess Anne, and of His Majesty respectively: and that from and after the deceases of His said Majesty, our now sovereign lord, and of Her Royal Highness the Princess Anne of Denmark, and for default of issue of the said Princess Anne, and of His Majesty respectively, the Crown and regal government of the said Kingdoms of England, France, and Ireland,.. shall be, remain, and continue to the said most excellent Princess Sophia, and the heirs of her body, being Protestants:

So the Act would have to be specifically amended (can't be repealed, because that would let in the descendants of Henriette Anne. ).

Parliament in 1713 might (just might_) have been Tory enough to do that, if the Princess were very clearly a Protestant. But it's a big might.

Of course, there's always a faint chance that a Protestant Stuart claimant might have stiffened Tory sinews enough for them to be willing to contest the succession on the battle field in 1714 . Or that it might have swayed the result of the '15 enough to overthrown the Hanoverian dynasty. Very speculative. And bear in mind that the '15 explicitly relied on support from Louis, which probably would not have been forthcoming for a Protestant .

Velasco · Jan 20, 2013

Interesting, thanks for that. I think Louisa Maria's conversion and succession would be possible, but would primarily depend on her brother dying beforehand.

JedidiahStott · Jan 20, 2013

Of course, if James II and VII were as shrewd as his brother he could have brought his younger child (Louisa) up as Protestant, thus giving him a bob each way. But Mary of Modena would never have stood for that, and if James were that clever he wouldn't have lost the crown in the first place.

Another ObWI. Mary and James were married in 1673, but the Prince James Francis Edward was not born until 1688. Nobody actually expected a baby after so many years. What if the little prince is born some years earlier, whilst Charles II is still alive ? I think it very probable that the little prince, and probably his sister (assuming her birth is also brought forward) would have been brought up a Protestant (whether James and Mary were willing or no ).

Their being brought up Protestant from birth enormously simplifies the matter

isabella · Jan 22, 2013

JedidiahStott said:
By the way, Sophie herself was still alive, and as shrewd as ever. You may be sure she won't stand idly by and see a kingdom plucked from her hands .

Marriage to George (I presume it was George of Hanover was meant) isn't totally simple since his first wife Sophie Dorothea of Celle is still alive. Although their marriage has been dissolved, would the Church Of England (which was more conservative than the Lutheran) recognize that ? I think it would at least have required an Act of Parliament.

Well, Sophie's family will not lost completely the kingdom...
because I think who the proposed husband and co-regnant for Louisa would be Sophie's grandson (the OTL George II, only a few year older than Louisa and not his father as you was thinking).
A conversion and this wedding can settle the thing peacefully and without any need to modify any laws...

Kellan Sullivan · Jun 14, 2013

Can i just ask the question of, had Louisa lived and married (assuming she marries while in exile), where might her dowry have come from?

No king is going to marry her without a dowry. And Mary Beatrice was in such straitened circumstances that she had no money to replace hger coach that was falling apart, or her horses when they died. So, the chances of her coming up with a dowry suitable to the king of England's daughter are small.

She could marry the duc de Berri,if Louis XIV decides to waive a dowry in exchange for his great-grandchildren inheriting the English throne, but without the certainty that there would be children from said marriage, this is small.

Velasco · Jun 14, 2013

No King is going to marry her without a dowry? Not so sure on that one. Didn't King Louis marry Mary of Poland for nothing, just because he needed a royal bride of suitable birth and without complicated political entanglements?

DrakeRlugia · Jun 14, 2013

Kellan Sullivan said:
Can i just ask the question of, had Louisa lived and married (assuming she marries while in exile), where might her dowry have come from?

No king is going to marry her without a dowry. And Mary Beatrice was in such straitened circumstances that she had no money to replace hger coach that was falling apart, or her horses when they died. So, the chances of her coming up with a dowry suitable to the king of England's daughter are small.

She could marry the duc de Berri,if Louis XIV decides to waive a dowry in exchange for his great-grandchildren inheriting the English throne, but without the certainty that there would be children from said marriage, this is small.

A dowry isn't a necessity. If she lives and her brother is dead, her dowry rests on the fact she is the Jacobite heiress, which is a alluring claim at any rate. A dowry wasn't just always money and jewels; it could be yes, but it could take shape in other forms too. Just because her mother is in bad straits doesn't mean she's going to die unmarried. You could argue the same for her brother and nephew, her nephew especially: who would want to marry a king without a kingdom? Her brother made an alright match (eventually) in a Sobieski, but her nephew married a relatively minor princess.

If she never becomes Queen of England, remains Catholic, she can still quite possibly catch a German Prince, or even a French noble, especially the various legitimate (and illegitimate) lines of the House of Bourbon.

As Velasco said, you're talking about the same time period where Louis XV under the tuteledge of the Duke of Bourbon sent away his intended bride, the Spanish Infanta, and married the daughter of the deposed Polish King; she didn't even belong to a very distinguished family. Szlatcha, certainly, but certainly in no position to provide a dowry, given they were living in exile. She was also older than the King. So if she can find a husband, I think the daughter of the last Stuart King of England won't have any troubles. I'd imagine the French King (especially Louis XIV, if she marries before his death) would intervene to at least provide her with a suitable marriage plate. There are plenty of times in history where dowries have been paltry, or some cases, fallen through complete (such as Catherine de Medici -- her uncle the Pope promised a grand dowry for her and promptly died not long after she was married to the Dauphin of France. His successor obviously refused to honor the agreement). Catherine was arguably in a worse situation, coming from the parvenu Medici family.