Renauds Government Refuses Armistice

Archibald

Banned
The way I see it, FFO is disavantaged against APOD because no english version exists.
People simply believe APOD is the English translation of FFO, which is not true.
In my very humble opinion the FFO team should make a blog with at least a summary of the work done.
What complicates matters is the ambiguous relation with Mark Bailey. The two teams parted ways yet supposedly there's no bitterness nor competition (at least, in the surface).
For example Mark Bailey sometime post on the FFO board asking for information he then re-introduce into APOD.
 

John Farson

Banned
The way I see it, FFO is disavantaged against APOD because no english version exists.
People simply believe APOD is the English translation of FFO, which is not true.
In my very humble opinion the FFO team should make a blog with at least a summary of the work done.
What complicates matters is the ambiguous relation with Mark Bailey. The two teams parted ways yet supposedly there's no bitterness nor competition (at least, in the surface).
For example Mark Bailey sometime post on the FFO board asking for information he then re-introduce into APOD.

Even within the APOD team there appear to be tensions. I've noticed that there have been some very... heated... discussions between Bailey and Geoff Mowbray, the guy who's pretty much responsible for the storyline in Malaya and Singapore. There are many things that they disagree on, chief among them the performance of the Japanese, with Geoff's position seemingly closer to the FFO team's viewpoint.
 
Paul V McNutt said:
The front moves back to Europe in November 1942
This is so unbelievably optimistic it's ASB.:eek::eek::eek: Do you have any idea what the state of shipping losses in the Atlantic looked like?:eek:
Anaxagoras said:
Spain is more likely to join the Axis powers ITTL
Possible, but unlikely IMO, given how bad shape Spain was in after the Civil War.
Japan is less likely to embark on aggression in the Pacific, because the French will defend Indochina and the British will be able to deploy heavier naval forces. No occupation of Indochina means no American oil embargo, which means no need to conquer the Dutch East Indies. At least at first.
Wrong IMO. Japan still needs oil, & the Dutch aren't selling. Also, she wanted access across IndoChina to cut supply lines to the Chinese; also why she wanted the Burma Road closed.
Anaxagoras said:
Hitler is less likely to invade the USSR in 1941
:eek::eek: If he delays, Germany could be really, really screwed. OTOH, what happens if he has more manpower, equipment, & access to oil...? (See below)
Does this mean a Soviet attack on Germany in 1942?
No. This is a fiction.
Does this mean that war between the United States and Germany will be butterflied away?
No, but it's likely to be delayed. How long it takes for the Germans to do something stupid in response to the "Neutrality Patrol" (one of the most infamously false names for something I can think of:eek::rolleyes:), or before Congress finds some nerve, is uncertain. Nor is it guaranteed Japan won't do something stupid in the Pacific...

It likely means the P.I. are better defended (probably 100 or so B-17s are in place; maybe 200 P-40s, too,:cool: & maybe more fleet subs:eek: {Keep them at Pearl, & send the Sugar boats, instead.:rolleyes:}). It also means the Hawaii radars are in place & operational, with a working fighter intercept system.:cool:

It also probably means the U.S. Sub Force has a larger surplus of Mark XIV torpedoes:eek:...meaning it will be longer before BuOrd is forced to stop sending them out to the Fleet to prove they don't work.:mad:
Evermourn said:
An argument could be made that the Renaud govt acted illegally, a new govt could be set up in France that is more pro-German in an attempt to curry favor. A highly unpopular declaration of war against the Brits perhaps?
I really do like this outcome.:cool::cool: It makes me wonder if it leads to a split in the French Empire. It also makes me wonder about a possible butterfly: a peeved Hitler :)rolleyes::p) offers Franco a deal for French African territory; Franco, on advice from Canaris (who actively opposed it), refuses; Hitler throws a hissy fit :)rolleyes::p) & offers *Vichy full partnership (in the fashion of Romania); *Vichy offers colonies more equal status. Thus, IndoChina (frex) is not hostile when Japan asks for transit rights...:eek:

So, do you also get *Vichy Syria acting as a base for attacks on Egypt? *Vichy Dakar as a base for U-boats?:eek::eek::eek::eek: *Vichy IndoChina invading Thailand or Malaysia? In 1940?:eek:
 

Faeelin

Banned
Actually, I think the cession of Inodchina might still fall, and it certianly will be a major issue. Indochina was seized in part to cut off routes to the Kuomintang, which is still an issue.

So, who knows.
 

Archibald

Banned
phx1138, Paul V McNuttHere's the FFO point of view

The front moves back to Europe in November 1942

Too optimistic. The FFO team picked late 1943 / early 1944.

Spain is more likely to join the Axis powers ITTL

There were heated debates about that "Spanish hypothesis". Notably of Germany attacking the French government in Northern Africa via Spain.
General consensus was that a) Spain was exhausted after the civil war b) Hitler can't crack it by force, not after the losses he sustained in France (where the ATL campaign ends on August 15, 1940)
c) Franco is just waiting for the end of the war and go with the winner

Japan still needs oil, & the Dutch aren't selling. Also, she wanted access across IndoChina to cut supply lines to the Chinese; also why she wanted the Burma Road closed.

Spot on.

The FFO team decided that France was too broken up to make any real difference in the (early) Pacific war, even with a defense of Indochina. Pearl Harbour doesn't change by an inch. And Germany still declares war.

The French Navy is badly mauled up in the Mediterranean, and Indochina resists, but barely (although that resistance sends butterflies to Lord Gort in Singapore, and McArthur in the Philippines) ;)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaxagoras
Hitler is less likely to invade the USSR in 1941

:eek::eek: If he delays, Germany could be really, really screwed. OTOH, what happens if he has more manpower, equipment, & access to oil...? (See below)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaxagoras
Does this mean a Soviet attack on Germany in 1942?

No. This is a fiction.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaxagoras
Does this mean that war between the United States and Germany will be butterflied away?

No, but it's likely to be delayed.

In FFO Barbarossa gets postponed to May 17, 1942 because the Italians are suffering even more in the Mediterranean (and they have been wiped out of North Africa as early as October 1940).

The Mediterranean ends littered with French, Italian and British battleships wrecks, another ironbottom sound. It's a naval carnage, all courtsey of battleship lover Mark Bailey. :D
The Pacific campaign is another battleship brawl and carnage. :eek:
 
I have no doubt that a Japan willing to fight the US and Britan would attack the French in Indo China. I assume that Indo China would be part of the series of attacks on December 7. tThe delay caused by fighting the French could allow enough Austrailian and Indian troops to arrive in time to protect Malaysia and prevent the conquest of the Dutch East Indies. In 1944, oil starved Japan collapses just as Germany surrenders. tThis intersesting senArio brings many potential butterflies. If the war ends before the Democratic convention. Would Roosevelt get a fourth nomination without a war? dDoes the end of the war cancel the Manhatten project? If so do the Soviets get the bomb first?
 
Paul V McNutt said:
Would Roosevelt get a fourth nomination without a war?
Doubtful. Depending on when the war ends, he might not even run. Also a good chance Time runs photos showing how ill he is, & he loses anyhow.
Paul V McNutt said:
Does the end of the war cancel the Manhatten project?
With US$2 billion spent on it?:eek::eek: Not a chance.
Paul V McNutt said:
If so do the Soviets get the bomb first?
Never. Stalin was initially dubious it was even real, or would work; plus, SU began work with the country being invaded...:rolleyes:

Better question is, does Britain set up her own independent Bomb program because the war is going better? Does that mean Canada gets a bonanza for hydropower construction, to power the uranium/plutonium separation?:cool::cool:
Archibald said:
The FFO team picked late 1943 / early 1944.
With war in the Pacific delayed, & (maybe) no invasion of Italy, mid-'43 is possible.
Archibald said:
Franco is just waiting for the end of the war and go with the winner
The most likely outcome IMO.
Archibald said:
TY.:)
Archibald said:
France was too broken up to make any real difference in the (early) Pacific war, even with a defense of Indochina.
What happens if that flips, & IndoChina goes *Vichy? It would seem that gives Japan what she wants in some measure, & (at least slightly) delays the attack on Pearl Harbor: into 1942 IMO.
Archibald said:
The Pacific campaign is another battleship brawl and carnage. :eek:
:confused: Why do both sides abandon carriers?
 
Though YMMV on whether that version's more realistic. Anyway, I prefer the original French version.
I followed the english forum for FFO until the team split and still follow APOD (don't have the necessary grasp of french to keep up with the remaining core FFO work). TBH, both have/had their fair share of issues.

A certain subset of the French FFO team saw the work as a chance to "restore French honour", resulting in a few occasions when methedology seemed to degenerate to find notable battle from OTL, cross out OTL result and scrawl "teh Frenhc Winz!!!"; a French colony aquired cutting edge industrial infustrucutre with no rational explination or a break through technology popping up a year early because the French suggest it. Of cause, that's only some small part of the work and there was also some quite brilliantly researched and interesting tales coming out of intense "simulation".

Equally so, on the APOD side, Mark seems to be steering more and more towards using APOD to explore his "ideal fantasy world" in which the British Empire endures forever more. That and his rather questionable view that Casha nd Carry followed by Lend-Lease was almost an active conspiracy by the yanks to strip Britain of everything they could (now, I can see that the programmes had negative effects for the UK and I dare say elements in the US government were trying to use it to advantage, but I can't buy his line that everyone from Roosevelt on down was driving it mainly to break Britain)... Still, the rule of cool outbreak with the Great Deeds arc has kept me coming back.

Then of cause, you've had Hyperion on the side screaming incohrent gibberish towards both projects because the yanks aren't winning the war single-handed; in their sleep; with both hands and legs tied behind their back and in under 20 seconds...
:rolleyes:
Yeah, I remember that. That whole thing about the colonies choosing sides in APOD was a bit over the top and actually served to put me off entirely of it.
IIRC, that's one of the blatant artificial variable control things the APOD team has included and specifically flagged as such... Basically the logic being they don't have the resources the combined effort had, and as such they introduce artificial friction to force certain convergences to OTL (mainly concerning industrial capabilities and tech development).
 
I think that most likely the Pacific war goes the same as OTL. tThe war in Europe surely ends earlier. That means that in the Fall of 44 the European veterans come to the Pacific. tThe bombing of Japan would be much more intense.I think you could get a surrender before the atomic bomb.
 

Archibald

Banned
What happens if that flips, & IndoChina goes *Vichy?

Vichy doesn't really *exists* in the FFO universe (the poor town itself never become Petain stronghold, first because Germany occupies the whole France from August 1940, secondly because Petain himself is dead :))

Laval and his clique stuck in Paris, but they are really miserable (in all the sense of the word !)

Metropolitan France has been stripped of everything that was both useful and transportable by boat or airplane. What was not transportable was either dynamited or taken over by the Germans. For the sake of comparison, Laval air force is made of 5 Me-109B and a couple of VG-33. Armored forces consists of decrepit Renault FT-17 tanks of WWI vintage.

Why do both sides abandon carriers?

Dare I say - because of this

Mark seems to be steering more and more towards using APOD to explore his "ideal fantasy world"

I noticed a lot of "Battleship vs Battleship" confrontations, and come to understand Mr Bailey is a battleship fan.

Battleships brawls so far includes
- Bismarck vs Hood & PoW v& Richelieu
- Provence / Lorraine / Bretagne vs Littorio
- Marat vs Tirpitz
And more to come in the Pacific war.
 
Archibald said:
I noticed a lot of "Battleship vs Battleship" confrontations, and come to understand Mr Bailey is a battleship fan.
That's different: handwavium, by definition, doesn't have to abide by the laws of reason.:cool::p
 
How does this play out?

Militarily:
France won't completely fall until late July 1940 or early August 1940, this is both for logistical reasons as the Germans need to resupply and because resisting in the Rhone valley on on river lines like the Loire or he Dordogne is a lot easier.
A French led attack on Italian North Africa is a given, but when it can take place is a matter of debate and discussion. I personnaly say that it can be launched as early as July, taking into account the large supply bases and forces available Algeria and Tunisia.

Longer tem the Pacific theatre will be a lot easier for the allies. Singapore fall's might be avoided and Sumatra might be held onto by the allies but at a cost. In my opinion this could open cans of worm in the long run. The priorities of the Americans and Anglo-French will be different. The Americans will want to strike Japan at the jugular and help China. But the Anglo-French will aim to reconquer their colonies at the expense of helping China and the unrelible Chiang.

Germany could delay Barbarossa until 1942 or strike in 1941 anways but with reduced forces and a consequent "drive to Moscow".

The war will overall be shorter by a few months in my opinion.

Diplomatic:
The Franco-British alliance is intact and the "their finnest hour" will be a shared experience. The Americans will have to fit in previously established command structures and such, they will gain command by numerical weight eventually, but the allied war effort won't be dominated by America to the extent it was OTL.

French Empire:
For a few years, the French colonial Empire will become France herself. This will have interesting consequences post war and the Algerian war will be butterflyed away. The shared experience of the colons and indigenes will be enough to lower resentment and allow for a peaceful transition in Algeria and elsewhere. The ride may be bumpy at times, but France will leave with her head held high TTL and without having betrayed her principles as was the case OTL.

FFO posits large scale economic development in North Africa. Their case is good in my opinion, but I won't follow that route in Sword of Freedom. The case for heavy industry in Algeria is weak, chiefly because local energy sources are not large enough to justify this. Significant economic development of lighter industries is nevertheless guaranteed to happen in my opinion, coupled with land reform and agricultural modernisation in North Africa. Algeria may not be able to produce steel and guns, but it has the capability to make uniforms, ration packs, some ammunition and to act as a massive resupply base.

Occupied France:
The Laval government will be a Quisling like puppet. Requisitions and privations will be a lot greater than OTL and occur in all areas of France TTL. I can consequently see more civilian deaths due to poor nutrition and cold compared to OTL. The harsher occupation could result in much more post war resentment towards Germany. Especially if scorched earth is adopted towards the end of the conflict, as the allies reconquer France.

The overall bill for rebuilding France will more expensive than OTL as well.

France overall:
The collaboration won't be seen in the same way as it is OTL. It is important to realise than the war is still a complicated and thorny subject in France even nowadays. There is still a lot of shame dating back from the collaboration and the fact that it the then political class condoned Pétain actions. Some even says that in a way the current Franco-German "axis" was created or made possible by wartime collaboration. Certainly, in a lot of circles the war and its consequences dampened any ideas that France could be an independent power on her own, thence Europe.

Gaullism won't emerge TTL and French politics will be drastically different. The communists won't be as influential and the SFIO will be the main leftwards force in French politics post war. No gaullism means that the post war French right won't have a clear leader, but rather a lot of influential personas like Reyanud, Mandel, De Kerillis and a few others.

The third Republci still won't survive the war nevertheless. But TTL fourth Republic will be more parliamentarian than OTL fifth. The French Prime Minister TTL will have roughly the same powers and influence as OTL British Prime Minister.

I followed the english forum for FFO until the team split and still follow APOD (don't have the necessary grasp of french to keep up with the remaining core FFO work). TBH, both have/had their fair share of issues.

A certain subset of the French FFO team saw the work as a chance to "restore French honour", resulting in a few occasions when methedology seemed to degenerate to find notable battle from OTL, cross out OTL result and scrawl "teh Frenhc Winz!!!"; a French colony aquired cutting edge industrial infustrucutre with no rational explination or a break through technology popping up a year early because the French suggest it. Of cause, that's only some small part of the work and there was also some quite brilliantly researched and interesting tales coming out of intense "simulation".

The French team has a lot of research power and a lot of expertise. But yes I do agree that there is a certain bias towards what you mentionned in a way.

My main quibble with them is that sometimes they are way too convergent with OTL, especially with regards to post war outcomes and consequences. Still, I realise that this is not something they are focusing on to a great extent.


Equally so, on the APOD side, Mark seems to be steering more and more towards using APOD to explore his "ideal fantasy world" in which the British Empire endures forever more. That and his rather questionable view that Casha nd Carry followed by Lend-Lease was almost an active conspiracy by the yanks to strip Britain of everything they could (now, I can see that the programmes had negative effects for the UK and I dare say elements in the US government were trying to use it to advantage, but I can't buy his line that everyone from Roosevelt on down was driving it mainly to break Britain)... Still, the rule of cool outbreak with the Great Deeds arc has kept me coming back.

Mark has lost a lot of credibility in my eyes by casually saying things like "The British Empire was a voluntary association of nations" or "A lot of FFO stuff regarding Algeria is projection France current issues on the past". the Japanese mass killer diesease outcome on the Isles he is proposing is also borderline ASB.

I can't deny that his expertise is massive, but I am tempted to say that he has binders sometimes and that he is ideologically motivated. The stuff about Chiang sorting himself and the Nats issues out for example is not plausible.

To be fair, probably every AH has a bias of some sort. I am very much aware of this myself as far as Sword of Freedom is concerned. Thence the current extended research phase. Chiefly because I want to explain why things will happen in the way they will. Moreover, while I am very aware that to an extent Sword of Freedom, will be a Anglo-French wank especialy post war. This wanking will have had a cost, both internal and external.
 
Dunois said:
Longer tem the Pacific theatre will be a lot easier for the allies.
IMO this depends if FIC goes *Vichy or not. If FIC opposes Japan, it's much worse for Japan, & IMO the Pac War is shorter by at least several months, because it buys time for the Allies to overcome their initial shock.

If, OTOH, FIC goes *Vichy, you see Brit, French, Chinese, even U.S. forces fighting there...:eek: And you see the Chinese refusing to leave when the war ends.:eek: Possibly even fighting the French over it.:eek:
Dunois said:
Singapore fall's might be avoided and Sumatra might be held onto by the allies but at a cost.
Both very possible IMO. It also means IMO *Coral Sea & *Midway don't go off on OTL schedule, if at all; maybe no Doolittle Stunt, either. A sea battle off the north end of New Guinea, comparable to OTL Coral Sea, isn't out of the question IMO.
Dunois said:
the Anglo-French will aim to reconquer their colonies at the expense of helping China and the unrelible Chiang.
IMO, it won't change much, since the U.S. is going to mostly fight in the Pacific & not on the mainland anyhow.
Dunois said:
Germany could delay Barbarossa until 1942
:eek::eek::eek: A very, very bad idea.:eek:

That said, does Hitler make *Vichy an ally? Adding even half the 1.25-1.5 million French POWs, plus French armor & production, to the mix in the East seems like a good thing for Germany. If colonies go *Vichy, too, the WAllied forces getting tied up can only be good for Germany. Add Dakar, it's a Brit nightmare.:eek::eek::eek:
Dunois said:
The Franco-British alliance is intact and the "their finnest hour" will be a shared experience. The Americans will have to fit in previously established command structures and such, they will gain command by numerical weight eventually, but the allied war effort won't be dominated by America to the extent it was OTL.
:cool: More than that, it means manpower won't be a limit. Neither will Britain hit limits on money nearly so soon. IDK what the French colonies had for production capacity, but anything they can do which doesn't require shipping from North America is good for the WAllies.

French crews for corvettes, plus French DDs, is a very good sign for the slow convoys. Those mostly fell to RCN OTL, & they didn't have the DDs to give them adequate protection; with French ships & crews, RN might be able to swap & give the relatively inexperienced Canadians the fast convoys & take the slow ones...or at least improve the protection of the slow ones.:cool:

Which does presume BdU doesn't get access to Dakar....:eek::eek::eek:

One thing does seem likely: there won't be any Italian invasion. (Sicily, yes; maybe Calabria; add PTs & commandos to keep Italy & German busy...:cool: Which still means Mussolini falls--which means Germany has to pacify & supply Italy, instead of the Allies.:cool::cool:) The added delay to liberating France is likely to be intolerable, & a stronger Free France (backed by the U.S.) makes it easier to resist. This does mean more LCs get built, which means probably fewer CVs (certainly fewer CVEs/CVLs); might also mean delays in some 'phib ops in PTO.

Postwar, this also means France gets her own Occupation Zone. Fair chance France doesn't take an entirely separate path diplomatically, either.
Dunois said:
the Algerian war will be butterflyed away
I wonder if the Vietnam War isn't, also (presuming no Franco-Chinese War over it:rolleyes:). If France has to rely more heavily on colonies, doesn't it imply making them more equal at war's end?
Dunois said:
Algeria may not be able to produce steel and guns, but it has the capability to make uniforms, ration packs, some ammunition and to act as a massive resupply base.
:eek::eek: Anything that doesn't need to be shipped is good. Especially if there's fighting in Africa.
 
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I was going to talk about FFO but Archibald did it faster and better than I ever possibly could. Once it's fully translated go try a read, it's really worth it.
 
Well, in one of my unsaleable AH novels I had Reynaud not asking for an armistice but fleeing to Algeria. France had a very hard time of it.

(They are unsaleable because I don't have the Nazis winning, slip overs from other timelines, magic, a Japanese occupation of Hawaii, or any of the other things that seem to be de rigeur in AH these days.)
 
(They are unsaleable because I don't have the Nazis winning, slip overs from other timelines, magic, a Japanese occupation of Hawaii, or any of the other things that seem to be de rigeur in AH these days.)

You have my complete sympathy. A pox on nazi fanbois.

Militarily:
France won't completely fall until late July 1940 or early August 1940, this is both for logistical reasons as the Germans need to resupply and because resisting in the Rhone valley on on river lines like the Loire or he Dordogne is a lot easier.
A French led attack on Italian North Africa is a given, but when it can take place is a matter of debate and discussion. I personnaly say that it can be launched as early as July, taking into account the large supply bases and forces available Algeria and Tunisia.

.....

That & the endless rest of it I tend to agree with. The other two discussions refered to seem to diverge into trivia or odd lines of thought.

Main points here seem to be:

1. Far better Allied position in the Med from 1941, or Barbarosa is delayed which is a Allied advantage as well.

2. Japan starts in a worse postion from early 1941, either not controling Indochina, or with the embargos imposed earlier due to its attempt to invade a Allied Indochina.

Wish I had time to properly game this. The rigors & reality checks of a good game model/system would probablly show how a actively hostile Allied France is bad news for Germany and the other Axis nations in general.
 
As far as Japan/USA goes, France keeping Indochina won't change the war in China except possibly to make the USA & others supplying Chiang easier. The only way Japan does not attack USA is if they stop the war in China.

Assuming Reynaud goes to N. Africa, even if Pétain stays behind good odds he won't be the head of any government the Germans install. Whatever else he was Pétain was not a fascist and hated the Germans. As it was his government could claim to be a legitimate successor government that came to power by & for the French - not like Quisling in Norway. If the Germans want a puppet there are French fascists they can use that will be more compliant than Pétain, they never got all they wanted from Vichy (as much as they did get). While the Vichy Zone may have it worse under full occupation, the areas occupied ITL will probably do the same - and if the war ends earlier good for everyone.

Spain WILL NOT join the Axis in this scenario. Franco was not going to do more than he did unless/until it was 110% obvious the Germans were going to win - period. After the Civil War Spain was in no shape to really contribute, and letting the Germans attack Gibraltar via Spain was a non-starter OTL, and with France in the fight in N.Africa is even less sensible.

Another random thought - with all French overseas territories in the fight, U-Boats have a harder time in the S. Atlantic due to bases in French West Africa, and also Pacific islands need to be dealt with by Japanese which hurts them by spreading limited resources even thinner.
 

Archibald

Banned
I was going to talk about FFO but Archibald did it faster and better than I ever possibly could. Once it's fully translated go try a read, it's really worth it.

And then Dunois did an even better job, a single post when I needed five :D
 
I agree that France Fights On jumped the shark very quickly to become a Frankwank and APOD is much more thoroughly researched, with even Italy benefitting in some way (reform of industry and license build of Japanese aircraft engines).

However a couple of things I just don't agree with.
The Japanese bioweapons attack on the British Isles. I pointed out in the forums that this would be a logistical impossibility.
Benny the Moose staying on after the war. I doubt the allies or the Italian people would countenance this even for a moment. However, with the huge contribution Balbo made in the timeline I think he might be a more likely candidate as a post war strongman for a post war Italian state.

Having said that there are some developments that are plausible due to sheer weirdness (the Tradition of the First Sea Lord's Bren Gun for example).

And the team has to be given kudos for originality in other areas e.g. Cutting out the Tirpitz sorry, HMS Trafalgar.

But I digress, I would be interested to see what we, AH.com could sping out of this old question.
 
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