something like this? the darker brown part becoming german, the yellow part of mozambique going to south-africa.
Wondering if madagascar Could end with south africa too (would they be interested in it)?
I can give you an even cheaper option.
Germany sells older surplus ships to the Dutch at a really low price. The Dutch then have the operating costs, and I don't have to deal with the issues of upsetting the UK or Japan or the USA. I can then negotiate for Zanzibar, and make Dar Es Salaam a quality "tier 1" port. The ships there can make it to a Dutch Harbor in a month, assuming there is some war that does not involve the UK. So in the Dutch-Japanese war of 1928, I can help defend the islands without spending near as much money. And in any war with the UK, I would try to close the Suez, close the South Atlantic with my Navy instead of fight some capital ship battle in the Pacific.
As to the resupply ship, there will be something like this in the future. For the AMC/U-boat combos, they can easily be at sea for 6-12 months. The AMC has spare U-boat crew members and some basic repair facilities. Since this is working so well for the Germans, it will form the base of their post war doctrine which will be an evolution. Once the Germans have worked out how to base squadrons of U-boats thousand of miles from the home base, why spend so much money on a bunch of ports. Also, if you look at the specifications, the U-boats I am building are very long range, even by WW2 standards. And if needed, I have the "milk cow". Have the UM class ships carry fuel and supplies, and I can project power with U-boats alone. The UM/UX combination could simply have the U-boats sail to near the DEI, refuel, then sail and attack Japan. The Germans currently have a power projection ability with submarines not seen until the post WW2 era with the USA. The Germans could almost fight a U-boat war off the coast of Alaska if needed with the UM/UN combination.
MittelAfrika will be a driving force after the war. I think I have either created a German speaking India that will seek freedom in a few generations. Or, I have this weird hybrid Greater Germany that is half Africa, half Euro.
The Colonial office does have hopes for settler, but it understands it will not be pulling from wealthy German areas, but people like Germans in South America, Germans in Russia, Eastern Jews might be possible settlers with the right incentives. As could any oppressed people such as Armenian or Greeks in Turkey or Christians in Lebanon. They key is getting settler who are loyal to Germany, want to become "German" and have useful skills. The last thing MittleAfrika needs is illiterate, unskilled people whose skin happens to be white.
Getting money for older surplus ships after the war is always a good idea.
Mittelafrika will cost a lot of money after all.
If the Dutch are still trying to be neutral after the war, I´d expect them to buy some surplus German and some surplus British ships though. To "balance" their approach.
To get Zanzibar Germany needs to conquer something the British will value higher than Zanzibar and want returned in a peace treaty. So the value of the conquered territory for Germany must be lower than Zanzibar.
Just to be contrarian.
Counter a u-boat threat with air power and destroyers?
In 1917 that means airships because of their long range and endurance. Plus airplanes/seaplanes and destroyers with depth charges (coordinating with the airships).
The British approach of our TL? If an enemy has suitable island bases near the operating area of the u-boats, that enemy can make it very costly to operate there?
Seaplane tenders and experimental aircraft carriers might be mentioned too?
A u-boat submerged loses half her speed. And it can only travel a limited amount of time on battery power (and at slow speed) alone, making it less dangerous to my ships. And maybe easier to find once it has surfaced again.
Plus of course any refueling and resupply has to be done surfaced. Not a good time to be caught. Just imagine the milk cow is in the process of transferring a torpedo...
And being damaged far away from a friendly base would probably mean the loss of the u-boat. Can be done if one disregards the risks.
I´d be surprised if some German (surface) naval officers aren´t already running anti-submarine warfare exercises in the Baltic Sea? Same for other naval powers especially the British.
Concerning the Asian bases.
That is speculation in case victorious Germany decides that it simply needs to return to Asia. Matter of pride and national honor and all that.
In that case trying to minimize the costs would become a discussion point (in Germany itself).
And who knows, depending on who that future enemy might be, some of the bases might survive. The u-boat crews probably would be happy to use them?
Both would be fascinating to see.
The difference to India though:
- German Mittelafrika already has native African commanding officers?
- The native African soldiers after the war will be German citizens with voting rights. Once you give one group the right to vote, in times of political trouble it often becomes easier to simply expand the right to vote. Unthinkable if you never gave any native group the right to vote but once started...
Kind of like, once Germany allows females to vote, what will happen with the wifes of former African soldiers who already are German citizens? Followed by, if a wife can vote, why can´t her father vote?
I can see this happening. I have toyed with the idea of Emperor Zimmermann.Both options are still possible though.
And a third option unfortunately. The soldiers and their kids start to form a new ruling class (even after independence). No Indian Gandhi move to independence, more like many our TL African countries after independence. A military coup by some of the former native colonial soldiers.
Quite likely.
You already mentioned possible pogroms against Jews in Eastern Europe. Many of them will probably flee west. But both Germany and Austria-Hungary for domestic reasons can´t accept unlimited Jewish immigration. Offering them either:
- land in (German) Angola and/or
- jobs/opportunities in industrial German Cameroon
might convince quite a few to go there. Especially if after x years there they get German citizenship?
The same is true for the other groups you mentioned.
I think Yiddish speaking Jews would qualify under the existing rule as a white who can speak German gets to vote. Basically if you pass the German test, are white, and swear an oath to Germany, you get to vote.
Yes, remember they are limited to Major General. Unlike India which basically has a white officer corp, MittelAfrika is majority black officers. The issues will be more related to how to integrate Africa with things like the concept of the German General Staff.
Yes, there are lots of integration issues. I am sort of modeling the voting on France. They wanted to make West Africa French, so they said if you were literate in French and a Christian, you were a full French citizen. The issues arose when they started getting Africans in the French parliament wanting things for Africa. The USA found a way to live with non-white citizens voting in conquered lands. European failed, at least when it mattered. The UK could not get past its white colonies voting in the house of commons. I don't know where Germany ends up, because they seem less racist than other Europeans at this time frame.
I think Yiddish speaking Jews would qualify under the existing rule as a white who can speak German gets to vote. Basically if you pass the German test, are white, and swear an oath to Germany, you get to vote.
all good ideas, i might add that if the germans offer a preferent area for the jews, that might attract a lot immigrants. especially because after a french loss there will very likely be an increase in the nationalist/ultra catholics parties there with the connected increase in anti-semitism, thus producing a stream of french jews looking for a safe place.
There aren't that many French Jews, I guess. At least in comparison to eastern Europe. Russia will be in turmoil after the war. We know what happened to them IOTL, even if there's no communist revolution ITTL (I guess the Germans will take care of that), violence against Jews is likely. The Germans may take some Jews into Memelland, but not all. And I don't see them establishing a Jewish homeland in Eastern Europe (well, doing that on purpose. By all likelihood, prince Henry's new domain will be nothing else...).
Winning Centrals butterflies the forming of israel, so instead i could imagine that migration to another area would take place. mittel-afrika could be an option, madagascar also.
all good ideas, i might add that if the germans offer a preferent area for the jews, that might attract a lot immigrants. especially because after a french loss there will very likely be an increase in the nationalist/ultra catholics parties there with the connected increase in anti-semitism, thus producing a stream of french jews looking for a safe place.
i was more thinking of somewhere in mittel-afrika or even madagascar.
I agree they will not take all of them in, but if they offer free transportation & such to M-A that would supply them with the settlers they need.
Not sure if jewish interestgroups were doing things like that in germany at that time, but I could imagine a jewish homeland being suggested by groups like that and it could give them quite some political goodwill (plus that it won't come for free of course, the international jewish community will have do something for it, like political pressure to keep the us neutral)
It went through with the major peace bill, voting reform stuff a month or two ago.Well, you already said you want the soldiers to get the right to vote. This is reasonable and should go through with German legislation - if there's on thing you can expect from Germany at the time then it's respect for the military.
This is the part I like. A small provision in a war that has wide popular support has huge issues over time. Over time, Germany will face a situation where the majority of the voters don't live in Europe, and the later, a majority are not even white. France started down this path, but then when they started to get too many black members of parliament, people reacted.Now from there on it becomes tricky. German citizenship law is based on "blood", not "soil", thus the children of Germans should again be German citizens. The children of those black soldiers will therefore most likely be German citizens.
Good question. My guess is statehood if it comes with real power. If it is fake power, they want independence.For the first time after the war, internal development of the colonies will largely rely on the military and former members of the military, thus the new citizens will likely be a main source of colonial elites. As a consequence, you'll have a local elite that already has the right to vote in the German parliament. Would they prefer independence over statehood within the German Empire?
I think any CP win leads to a German Century, at least compared to OTL. German would dominate central/eastern Europe. German could easily be a trade language in many Muslim lands. etc.Now I don't know where you want to go from here, but I think (some of) the colonies becoming part of Germany proper would be really interesting - and far more likely to lead to a "German century". So here's some suggestions:
I am sure rigging the vote in Africa will be a favorite past time of the Reichstag.- I think that the socialists, Zentrum and the Liberals would see the danger of the new citizens voting conservative. Thus they'd likely counter that by giving the right to vote to other groups outside of the military: the wives of the soldiers, university graduates, administration workers, entrepreneurs. The easiest would be to base it on education, with Zentrum relying on Catholic missionaries and the Socialists building up stipend systems or socialist schools (any engagement in education of natives will be helpful, and domestic policies can be an important motivation). This, in turn, increases the number of German citizens.
Yes, this is the point. Bind the local power structure to the army, which maintains the state. Hopefully, over time, German military titles will take the place of old African titles. Also, Zimmermann had to assure the loyalty of the Army, since once it is over 90% black officers, a coup is always an issue.- chiefs, local princes and kings could also get citizenship - and maybe certain noble titles - to bind them to the Empire. Of course, their sons need to be educated in Germany and it's only natural to expect them to join military academies thereafter and start a career within the German military far away from home...
Interesting Ideas. I have not gotten that far yet.- As Germany will need money, an idea is to sell citizenshis: If you're a christian, speak some German, and pay a given amount of taxes, then you can get German citizenship against an annual payment over a given time. This may attract immigrants from India or China which could prove crucial for the economic development of the new German colonies.
- with all the relocation going on in Eastern Europe, it's not that unlikely that Germany actually can find some emmigrants for its colonies. No Germans, but Jews and some European minorities. 1960, Namibia had 600.000 people, so let's assume there were 300.000 in 1920. Several thousand of these will be soldier-citizens, 150.000 immigrants and Southwest could get statehood within a couple of years, long before any independence movement comes up - Schaumburg-Lippe was a state and had merely 50.000 inhabitants. That would then be an example of possible development. It's important to consider that the German federal system actually makes it far easier to integrate oversea colonies than the more centralist systems of France or Britain. After all, statehood guarantees a lot of internal independence - Bavaria and Badenia even had their own army.
I can't really see Madagascar.
I think immigrants will want infrastructure (road, railroads, dams, sanitation systems), so SWA, Angola, and Kamerun look like the logical places.
Do you have any idea what Eastern Jews would be looking for? What would be most attractive to them? Climate? Cities? etc.
What do you mean by Preferent area? Jewish only state? Jewish Quarter in otherwise Black majority city? Separate Jewish civil code?
I would think the Germans would more want financing for colonial improvements. I have toyed with something like the Ubangi-to-Chari river project, then giving the Jews the newly irrigated land, complete with almost no native population. It sounds like a big project, but when I looked it up, it is basically the same scale as the Hoover dam with water going to California.
Or I have looked at something like a large section of the Angolan highlands or there are even some nice sections of Kamerun that have a nice climate and the population has not yet increased. Or even something like Rwanda might be doable. The real question is what do the leaders of the Zionist movement want most, and what would they give to get it? Africa has plenty of illiterate, poor men with strong backs. Just moving Jewish villages to Africa makes little sense, except to handle refugee overflow. And with the millions of CP men dead, German probably could absorb a few million extra workers quite easily. So could Austria, or even Hungary.
These are rough number, I was using to figure out if to fight a big North Sea Surface battle this winter.
I am not so sure on the UK selling warships right after the war. I show the UK down to 24 dreadnoughts versus 18 for the Germans, and 8 BC versus 6 for the Germans. I think I have 5 Yorck under construction. So the UK needs 46 dreadnoughts and 16 BC for a total of 60 capital ships. Subtract 37 from this total (24+8+5 being worked up), and the UK needs 23 more ships soon after the war, so likely they will not sell any ships for a while. By the time the UK gets to 1923 and is trying to sell 12" gunned BB, the market will be small for them.
Do you agree?
BTW, I sometimes think you are the reincarnated treasurer for the SDP, circa 1910.
I am assuming you are talking about UK countermeasures.
A lot has to do with the initiative. The Germans gained the initiative on the sea within a year, and the UK is reacting to them, not vice versa. Writing the U-boat war has been a struggle, since it is not a few big battles (one per month or less) that ATL likes but 100's of encounters each month. This is why I am summarizing numbers, because I was afraid people would just get loss in the number if I tried to write a bunch of U-boat sink wheat ship 100 miles out of Halifax type entries.
Well, you already said you want the soldiers to get the right to vote. This is reasonable and should go through with German legislation - if there's on thing you can expect from Germany at the time then it's respect for the military.
Now from there on it becomes tricky. German citizenship law is based on "blood", not "soil", thus the children of Germans should again be German citizens. The children of those black soldiers will therefore most likely be German citizens.
For the first time after the war, internal development of the colonies will largely rely on the military and former members of the military, thus the new citizens will likely be a main source of colonial elites. As a consequence, you'll have a local elite that already has the right to vote in the German parliament. Would they prefer independence over statehood within the German Empire?
Now I don't know where you want to go from here, but I think (some of) the colonies becoming part of Germany proper would be really interesting - and far more likely to lead to a "German century". So here's some suggestions:
- I think that the socialists, Zentrum and the Liberals would see the danger of the new citizens voting conservative. Thus they'd likely counter that by giving the right to vote to other groups outside of the military: the wives of the soldiers, university graduates, administration workers, entrepreneurs. The easiest would be to base it on education, with Zentrum relying on Catholic missionaries and the Socialists building up stipend systems or socialist schools (any engagement in education of natives will be helpful, and domestic policies can be an important motivation). This, in turn, increases the number of German citizens.
- with all the relocation going on in Eastern Europe, it's not that unlikely that Germany actually can find some emmigrants for its colonies. No Germans, but Jews and some European minorities. 1960, Namibia had 600.000 people, so let's assume there were 300.000 in 1920. Several thousand of these will be soldier-citizens, 150.000 immigrants and Southwest could get statehood within a couple of years, long before any independence movement comes up - Schaumburg-Lippe was a state and had merely 50.000 inhabitants. That would then be an example of possible development. It's important to consider that the German federal system actually makes it far easier to integrate oversea colonies than the more centralist systems of France or Britain. After all, statehood guarantees a lot of internal independence - Bavaria and Badenia even had their own army.
Seen that way, you are right.
If the British public insists on the two-navy standard they won´t have anything to sell.
And the surface ships the Germans might sell are really the "old" ones.
Some of the older u-boats- as you said - might be bought by the Dutch.
LOL.
Anything that helps to ease budget cuts after the war is fine with me.
As a treasurer that means that Germany might sell some of its older dreadnoughts to South America and the Ottoman Empire? At bottom prices?
To replace the ships ordered in the UK before the war and then not delivered?
Actually I was already a bit in the future.
You know, a future attack (after WW1) on the Dutch East Indies by some undefined enemy. I simply assumed that such an enemy would have observed the u-boat (and AMC) tactics used. And would have tried to develop counter measures to that threat.
1. I would think that one of their priority would also be safety.
2. an area where there could be a sizable minority or even a majority of jews, where they will be able to influence what is happening to them.
i agree that several of the cp countries could accept the refugee jews, the question is, would they want to, in political circles (and also elsewhere) there could be a feeling of 'enough of them'. After all we shouldn't forget that casual anti-semitism was quite normal back then (meaning they were more or less tolerated, not persecuted, but far from really accepted)
Do you think the UK would insist on anything else? Maybe not a literal 2-1, but twice a strong. It will mean a much lower standard of living than OTL, but it is doable. Also, the best I can tell the white colonies were freeloaders. The UK built 60+ capital ships over 20 years, and the colonies built what 2? And the total whites in colonies is at least 50% of the UK. So the colonies face a tough choice. Step up, and pay for their share of RN, or face Japan alone. The only other choice would be to apply to for USA statehood. LOL.
Sure, I will sell ships if you authorize new ships. So one new 17" for each 12" I can sell.
I think the more likely part is Germany tries to dominate the international market with new ships. Basically, the UK screwed you over, the Germans honor contracts. There have been no surface battles, so people don't know German ships are tougher.
o being so concerned with German finances, you are OK as I start moving the naval construction to the Imperial Douala Shipyard? And the Army orders its artillery from KruppAfrika?
SMS Sachsen was scrapped.Y
If Germany is building 5 new Yorck-class battle cruisers (15" guns) right now then Germany can afford to sell some of their older dreadnoughts and battle cruisers after the war ends. Especially all of the old 11" gun dreadnoughts (4 x Nassau class) and battle cruisers (Seydlitz, Moltke, von der Tann).
I´m assuming the Bayern class dreadnoughts are also built?
I see your point. Will look at later.Some South American countries and the Ottoman Empire ordered ships before the war. They already waited several years for delivery.
With the Uk not releasing the ships, I can see them accepting cheap and slightly used Nassau class dreadnoughts and older German battle cruisers at reduced prices? Given the choice between ships now and ships delivered several years in the future....
And if someone wants to order a new ship in Germany...
You´re forgetting several things, I think.
For the next few years (after the war) the shipyards in German Africa quite simply won´t have the knowledge and the supply chain to build real battleships.
- There is a difference between building an AMC / destroyer / cruiser and a battleship.
- Producing battleship armor and main guns is a highly specialized job.
- Adding range finders (optics), electricity (Siemens / AEG) and modern engines will be developed in Germany.
Not to mention that both your "Imperial Douala Shipyard" and your "KruppAfrika" are in Africa. Far away and still separated from the motherland by British ships. So no sane German army officer or naval officer would rely on deliveries from German Africa in a war.