Fear, Loathing and Gumbo on the Campaign Trail '72

[Space Oddity]

I like this and it is consistent with this TL so I'll accept it as part of it. I like the bit about putting the two Vietnams together in a common cause against Lon Nol.

A couple of things: The US is also throwing support to Son Sann to diversify the Cambodian government. Even if that fails, its still likely to lead to some conflict.

President Ngô Quang Trưởng of South Vietnam is also a tough customer and not one to be easily cowed. He still has a military presence in Cambodia and would act to protect ethnic Vietnamese. His South Vietnamese Army is far more effective than Lon Nol's forces at this point.

Well, thank you. Oh, and the bit about North and South Vietnam protesting the riots and killings? OTL.

About Son Sann--to my mind, his big disadvantage is that, even with American support, he's on the outside looking in. He has support with a lot of the political class--but Lon Nol has the actual government, the army, and he's the one the people have heard of. (Glad to hear he didn't get caught in Beijing though.) As I figure it, Americans aren't happy with Lon Nol, but they don't want to risk losing what they've got. They'll support Sann, say, founding a party, and competing with Nol in elections, but not allow him to form an militia group, or bribe officers in FANK, or anything else that could destabilize things that much. The American government has convinced itself that Nol's unstable, and that his brother's a tad corrupt, but that they really aren't horribly evil fellows, largely because they really don't want to think what they might have done here. (And remember, this is one guy's ancedotal account. I've no doubt government officials will declare 'We had indications that things were bad, and we did what we could to keep things under control. And we SUCCEEDED--that crazy bastard only really got going when we left.')

As for President Trưởng--I've no doubt he's doing what he can in this situation. But he's only got so many troops there, he's got China and North Vietname to worry about and the Americans REALLY don't want the governments they're supporting to squabble too much. Plus, the Lons aren't having them gun down the Vietnamese in streets--they're keeping this small and low-profile at the moment. It's a village here, a shopkeeper there, and if the South Vietnamese or America catch wind of some of it, denials, excuses, and if they have to, a scapegoat. (Also, if the South Vietnamese REALLY start breathing down their necks on it, they back off for a while, and start killing the Cham, who have nobody particularly looking out for them.) Nol'll only go full-scale genocide if he thinks he can get away with it, or if he thinks he's going down.

As I tried to indicate, right now the Lons' Cambodia is slightly off. It'll only go full horror show once the American presence in SE Asia declines--and it will be a very different horror show than Khmer Rouge Cambodia.

 

[Pitt the Even Younger]

If I might ask about the Democrat Killer again, what exactly has set him off in this timeline? Every serial killer has some kind of trigger that provokes them act upon their desire to kill (we know his reasons, obviously), so what was it for this guy?

Surely Agnew implicitly approving of the Democrat Killer on television raised a few eyebrows even among his hardcore audience?

Apologies if my questions about this seem a trifle inane, but I think this aspect of the timeline is really interesting.

 

[Nekromans]

Started reading this yesterday.

I swore for half a minute when McKeithen died.

I did a victory dance when Agnew was impeached.

I visibly winced when Thatcher accidentally killed two people.

This is a damned good timeline, and I look forward to more of it. Sorry I can't be more constructive help at the present time.

 

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

2 potential ideas for your TL, do with them as you see fit:

November 23, 1974
Fela Kuti is killed during a Nigerian Army raid on his commune, the Kalakuta Republic.

September 8, 1975
On his TV show The 700 Club, Pat Robertson predicts the world would end in about 5 years. Over the following weeks he delivers more details on the Armageddon he foresees, which involve a liberal US president, terrorism in the United States, a communist takeover of South Africa, Soviet aggression, and wars in the Middle East.

On the Democrat Killer, it could be Joseph Paul Franklin or David Lane.

 

[John Farson]

With the Vietnam War having ended with South Vietnam still in existance, might LBJ be somewhat rehabilitated? By this, I mean might he come to be seen as more a Truman-like president than how he is viewed nowadays (Great Society and civil rights notwithstanding)?

About movies: will George Romero make Dawn of the Dead in TTL? OTL, Romero got the inspiration in 1974 when he was invited by a friend to visit Monroeville Mall. With the 1970s being more chaotic here, I think any such movie would likewise be affected. There might be more scenes of urban chaos, for example (like the chaotic newsroom at the beginning, the police/national guard assault on the housing project, the cops abandoning the police dock, the rednecks shooting zombies and partying etc.).

Also, will John Carpenter still make Halloween? One advantage that these two films have is that since they were relatively low-budget ones in OTL, the weaker economy might not necessarily prevent them from being made in TTL.

About Star Wars: it's been mentioned that the economy might postpone it for a few years. However, it's often forgotten that the production of Star Wars was fraught with problems, with there being a general fear that the film was going to prove to be an expensive bomb. I think that Lucas might still make Star Wars more or less in the same timescale as OTL. With the economic, social and political situation being what it is, there might very well be an even bigger demand for a film such as Star Wars than OTL, similar to how people flocked to see escapist films in the Depression-era 1930s (as you yourself pointed out many, many pages ago, Drew). Therefore, Star Wars might actually be an even bigger hit in FL&G's 1977.

Just some thoughts.

 

[WestVirginiaRebel]

Speaking of movies, if it gets made would Close Encounters of the Third Kind be a different film? Maybe more cynical, in a reflection of the times, with Roy Neary being unemployed and on the verge of losing his home, and maybe the government coverup surrounding the aliens having a darker, X-Files-type theme to it.

As for malls, fewer of them might get built, resulting in a postponment of the shopping mall culture of the late Seventies/early Eighties (and no mall-driving scene in The Blues Brothers!) Also, existing malls would be more expensive to maintain and keep businesses, so many of them might fold early on.

 

[Thande]

This is a damned good timeline, and I look forward to more of it. Sorry I can't be more constructive help at the present time.

Welcome on board Nek. More people deserve to know about this one, it's one of AH.com's (unfortunately) best-kept-secrets in the field of awesome timelines.

 

[WestVirginiaRebel]

July 4, 1976-The "Restore the American Dream" rally and concert is held in Washington, D.C. Performers include Bob Dylan, Jackson Browne, Linda Rondstat, Crosby, Stills, and Nash, Bonnie Raitt, the Eagles, the Allman Brothers Band, Michael McDonald, James Taylor, the Ramones, Tom Petty, Patti Smith, and Bruce Springsteen. Speakers include comedian George Carlin, who uses the event as a pitch for his presidential run, Jesse Jackson, newly elected Republican congressman Ron Paul (TX) (elected 1974), Frugal Pantry founder Jeff Smith, Saturday Night Live writer David Letterman (who gains national exposure as a result) and businessman H. Ross Perot. An estimated 250,000 people attend the event, leading pundits to call it "Washington's Woodstock."

 

[Drew]

Well, the downside is, probably no "Kingdom of the Spiders"...

April 25 1976-A riot starts at Dodger Stadium when a group of anti-government protesters are attacked by a crowd of baseball fans when they try to set fire to an American flag. Rick Monday, a center fielder for the Chicago Cubs, gains national attention when he is shown punching one of the protesters in the face. He later defends his actions by saying, "As bad as things are, there are some things you just don't mess with, and to me one of them is the Stars and Stripes."

OK. This incident leads to Monday appearing at a Wallace campaign rally.

Wallace: "I welcome this great American, Rick Monday. Not only did he defend our flag, but he put those unwashed punks in their place. I agree that there's a lot that needs to be fixed in America right now, but that doesn't give every dissatisfied, unwashed Tom, Dick or Hippie the right to attack our great country and the hard-working folks who are puttin' blood, sweat and tears into rebuildin' it."

June 24, 1976-General Motors announces a major restructuring plan that will focus on its core brands as a means of avoiding bankruptcy. The company also announces an experimental "Cars for clunkers" program in partnership with Hertz wherein car owners can trade in their older vehicles for newer, smaller models and use them as temporary rentals against the eventual purchase of a new car or truck.

OK. Ronald Reagan: "The auto industry is a clear example of how government has gotten in the way of business. We have imposed so many regulations on auto makers that they can't produce an economically priced car: their costs are increased by all the regulations they have to meet.

"You know, I've heard this said before about our economy today, and I believe its true. If your neighbor loses his job, it's a recession. If you lose your job, its a depression. The recovery begins when the bureaucrat making too many rules loses his. Well, I'm running to see that as many of those bureaucrats as possible lose their jobs, because I want to get government out of the way of the American businessman and the American worker."

 

[Drew]

July 4, 1976-The "Restore the American Dream" rally and concert is held in Washington, D.C. Performers include Jackson Browne, Linda Rondstat, Crosby, Stills, and Nash, Bonnie Raitt, the Eagles, the Allman Brothers Band, Michael McDonald, James Taylor, the Ramones, Tom Petty, Patti Smith, and Bruce Springsteen. Speakers include comedian George Carlin, who uses the event as a pitch for his presidential run, Jesse Jackson, newly elected Republican congressman Ron Paul (TX) (elected 1974), Frugal Pantry founder Jeff Smith, and businessman H. Ross Perot. An estimated 250,000 people attend the event, leading pundits to call it "Washington's Woodstock."

Interesting idea, we'll say its in the works for the 4th.

 

[Drew]

If I might ask about the Democrat Killer again, what exactly has set him off in this timeline? Every serial killer has some kind of trigger that provokes them act upon their desire to kill (we know his reasons, obviously), so what was it for this guy?

Surely Agnew implicitly approving of the Democrat Killer on television raised a few eyebrows even among his hardcore audience?

Apologies if my questions about this seem a trifle inane, but I think this aspect of the timeline is really interesting.

Oh, Mr. Agnew raises eyebrows wherever he goes, and then mocks, insults and criticizes anyone who tries to know him down over it. For now, even those who might be outraged at some of the specific points he makes, are tuning in to see what else he's got to say.

I'll get into the Democrat killer's psychology once the law catches-up with him.

 

[Drew]

Speaking of movies, if it gets made would Close Encounters of the Third Kind be a different film? Maybe more cynical, in a reflection of the times, with Roy Neary being unemployed and on the verge of losing his home, and maybe the government coverup surrounding the aliens having a darker, X-Files-type theme to it.

As for malls, fewer of them might get built, resulting in a postponment of the shopping mall culture of the late Seventies/early Eighties (and no mall-driving scene in The Blues Brothers!) Also, existing malls would be more expensive to maintain and keep businesses, so many of them might fold early on.

ABC has a hit television series called The Conspiracy starring Michael Douglas, so I'm thinking Close Encounters might get made because there is an in-built audience to market to, and it would pitch its story line to The Conspiracy for that reason (in the show the aliens are behind much of the world's troubles). I agree with the elements you suggest, Neary being unemployed and more of an active government cover-up. The aliens need not be villains, but they won't be quite as benign as OTL either.

Of course, in TTL version, they aliens could be seeking re-dress for what was done to their people at Roswell, New Mexico.

Fewer Malls, more community centered markets. On the other hand, you might still have a few strategically placed mega malls designed to serve larger suburban communities.

 

[Drew]

With the Vietnam War having ended with South Vietnam still in existance, might LBJ be somewhat rehabilitated? By this, I mean might he come to be seen as more a Truman-like president than how he is viewed nowadays (Great Society and civil rights notwithstanding)?

Yes, I think his reputation would undergo a historical softening, especially in light of what came after him. There might be a political rehabilitation of LBJ down the road.

About movies: will George Romero make Dawn of the Dead in TTL? OTL, Romero got the inspiration in 1974 when he was invited by a friend to visit Monroeville Mall. With the 1970s being more chaotic here, I think any such movie would likewise be affected. There might be more scenes of urban chaos, for example (like the chaotic newsroom at the beginning, the police/national guard assault on the housing project, the cops abandoning the police dock, the rednecks shooting zombies and partying etc.).

OK

Also, will John Carpenter still make Halloween? One advantage that these two films have is that since they were relatively low-budget ones in OTL, the weaker economy might not necessarily prevent them from being made in TTL.

Definitely with lower budgets, this would be a good environment for them.

About Star Wars: it's been mentioned that the economy might postpone it for a few years. However, it's often forgotten that the production of Star Wars was fraught with problems, with there being a general fear that the film was going to prove to be an expensive bomb. I think that Lucas might still make Star Wars more or less in the same timescale as OTL. With the economic, social and political situation being what it is, there might very well be an even bigger demand for a film such as Star Wars than OTL, similar to how people flocked to see escapist films in the Depression-era 1930s (as you yourself pointed out many, many pages ago, Drew). Therefore, Star Wars might actually be an even bigger hit in FL&G's 1977.

I haven't ruled out Star Wars, though I think a test marketing of an animated version might precede it to test audience reactions before a live action film is made. TTL SW might also focus on economic hardships faced by Luke's family - i.e. Jabba the Hut is about to foreclose on the farm, or Luke is forced to sell himself into indentured servitude to the Huts for his family at the beginning of the story.

Another thought on the Depression era theme might be a full scale bio-film of FDR with focus on the New Deal years, or indeed an earlier Kennedy-New Frontier wank film.

There might even be more nostalgia for the 1950's and early 1960's when "things were still right with America."

Just some thoughts.

Always welcome.

 

[Drew]

(Also, if the South Vietnamese REALLY start breathing down their necks on it, they back off for a while, and start killing the Cham, who have nobody particularly looking out for them.) Nol'll only go full-scale genocide if he thinks he can get away with it, or if he thinks he's going down.

As I tried to indicate, right now the Lons' Cambodia is slightly off. It'll only go full horror show once the American presence in SE Asia declines--and it will be a very different horror show than Khmer Rouge Cambodia.

Agreed. This has potential to be a lot of mischief in the making which will unfold over time.

 

[Pitt the Even Younger]

There might even be more nostalgia for the 1950's and early 1960's when "things were still right with America."

So "Harry Truman" will be a number one hit for Chicago!

I think George Lucas films could do fairly well. They have that kind of nostalgia about them, being influenced by the serials and pulps of Lucas' youth.

Bruce Springsteen will probably be an even bigger hit, here, especially when he gets "Born to Run" out. I wonder how this America will respond to punk rock. The Sex Pistols might have more of an audience this time.

 

[Drew]

2 potential ideas for your TL, do with them as you see fit:

November 23, 1974
Fela Kuti is killed during a Nigerian Army raid on his commune, the Kalakuta Republic.

Leading to a Kuti/Kalakuta Republic movement in Nigeria and perhaps other African countries?

September 8, 1975
On his TV show The 700 Club, Pat Robertson predicts the world would end in about 5 years. Over the following weeks he delivers more details on the Armageddon he foresees, which involve a liberal US president, terrorism in the United States, a communist takeover of South Africa, Soviet aggression, and wars in the Middle East.

OK.

 

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

Another suspect for the Democrat Killer: James von Brunn.

Of course, in TTL version, they aliens could be seeking re-dress for what was done to their people at Roswell, New Mexico.

Grey Power!

TTL SW might also focus on economic hardships faced by Luke's family - i.e. Jabba the Hut is about to foreclose on the farm, or Luke is forced to sell himself into indentured servitude to the Huts for his family at the beginning of the story.

That's kind of getting into self-parody. SF doesn't have to reflect present-day realities, some would say it's meant to provide an escape from them.

Another thought on the Depression era theme might be a full scale bio-film of FDR with focus on the New Deal years, or indeed an earlier Kennedy-New Frontier wank film.

The former I would actually like to see. How 'bout Gregory Peck as FDR?

 

[Drew]

Started reading this yesterday.

I swore for half a minute when McKeithen died.

I did a victory dance when Agnew was impeached.

I visibly winced when Thatcher accidentally killed two people.

This is a damned good timeline, and I look forward to more of it. Sorry I can't be more constructive help at the present time.

Welcome to the TL. Glad you like it.

 

[Thande]

That's kind of getting into self-parody. SF doesn't have to reflect present-day realities, some would say it's meant to provide an escape from them.

I concur. Furthermore Star Wars was always about a modern, nostalgic reconstruction of the old 1930s film serials. Perhaps they might push the fact that those serials were also escapism for a country caught in a Depression; more mainstream viewers might actually realise that the films are supposed to evoke Flash Gordon et al.

 

[Drew]

That's kind of getting into self-parody. SF doesn't have to reflect present-day realities, some would say it's meant to provide an escape from them.

Or leads the audience into escape as Luke escapes the troubles of the world they live in.

The former I would actually like to see. How 'bout Gregory Peck as FDR?

A possibility.