A Red Dawn: American Revolution and Rebirth

[Teleology]

You know, out of any ideology opposed to the system there's going to be a few people that don't really care about the specifics and are just natural oppositionitarians. I can see in a world with more communist powers some OTL famous socialists/communists becoming capitalists or libertarians, the same way any establishmentarian ideology will get a few people who just like being in power and don't believe in the party ideology (like your Public Safety chief version of J. Edgar).

 

[Hobelhouse]

Well, I figure if Plato saw fit to exclude the n00bs of his era from the Socratic dialogues, it's probably a good idea to do so here too

I can provide that for you:

AH CHALLENGE: Ethiopia/Iceland personal uni0on?

lol ur american rite? post boob pix

ASBWI: dirty Communist scum all killed by meteors

 

[Hobelhouse]

You know, out of any ideology opposed to the system there's going to be a few people that don't really care about the specifics and are just natural oppositionitarians. I can see in a world with more communist powers some OTL famous socialists/communists becoming capitalists or libertarians, the same way any establishmentarian ideology will get a few people who just like being in power and don't believe in the party ideology (like your Public Safety chief version of J. Edgar).

Hmm.. the Noam Chomsky R[LOVE]ution?

 

[Orville_third]

Hmm.. the Noam Chomsky R[LOVE]ution?

I got the reference...and that is something I'd love to see...

 

[The Sandman]

Already way ahead on you Gundam. I'm a pretty big fan of the UC universe of Gundam series.

I'd actually be more interested in how they spin the Federation, given that they're only good guys by virtue of Zeon being so much worse.

As for the point on Turkey, this is a world where the Germans hadn't yet gone after Western Europe, so they might very well have had enough troops to crush it. Although I can also see Turkey ending up somewhere between Finland and Vichy France as far as their position in the Axis; while they'd vaguely like the idea of paying back the Russians for the past few centuries, the real reason for siding with Germany would be the Axis troops poised to invade them. The more pressure the Germans put on the Turks to give more active help against the Allies, and the more pressure they put on the Turks to conform with the Nazi social agenda, the less happy the Turks will be about their position.

Which in turn makes it likely that Turkey is going to suffer the same fate as Vichy France did IOTL: invaded by the Germans to make sure it didn't try to switch sides.

 

[TNF]

I'd actually be more interested in how they spin the Federation, given that they're only good guys by virtue of Zeon being so much worse.

As we learned all too well in the sequels. Maybe the 'Red' UC will have the Federation as a Soviet-analogue, then? If the Socialist Republic of Japan is allied with the UASR, they'd probably take a few potshots at the rival power in the Comintern. AEUG could be a vague analogue for the democratic socialist UASR.

 

[The Sandman]

One thing I can see the UASR doing quietly (well, more or less) in TTL's WWII is forcing the Brits to make at least two concessions in order to get Lend-Lease assistance: Hawaii returned to the UASR, and an end to British support for the USA-in-exile, at least in Cuba. In both cases, for a combination of practical and sentimental reasons; practically, they both have immense strategic significance, and sentimentally, their handover following the Revolution involved turning over people who would have supported the UASR to the capitalist oppressors.

Both are likely to end up independent, but also UASR-friendly.

I also think that the Pacific is going to be a gigantic mess. The British and French are going to be supporting the Japanese as a bulwark against the Soviets, which means that they're inevitably going to clash with the UASR, and yet in the Atlantic they're going to desperately need American help when Hitler figures that Russia is down for the count and comes to settle scores with France. I can almost see some sort of weird situation where American forces are fighting the British and French in the Pacific at the same time as they're cooperating with them in the Atlantic.

 

[Venusian Si]

Wow, it's been a long time since I've commented, but I've finally finish reading your great work!

In any case, congrats on creating a realistic world that would make Ayn Rand want to smash her head in with a brick. Still, she's probably got herself killed already, or is writing Atlas Shrugged in Canada. (Shudders)

Still, I would like to make a few comments.

As for the Holocaust, I could honestly see it not happening, or at least not to the extent that happened in OTL. IIRC, Hitler apparently made a comment that went along the line of putting the Jews on luxury cruise ships if another country was willing to take them.

Obviously, the UASR would be that country, but Jews in other countries like Poland might not be as lucky once the war actually starts. Perhaps the same thing could happen to he Romani as well? It would certainly be interesting to see the UASR becoming the homeland to the vast majority of the world's Jews/Romani. Perhaps they even get their own Autonomous Socialist Republics?

I also like how many OTL people, shows, movies, etc. are showing up in this TL. I would especially love to see this world's versions of I Love Lucy, All in the Family, The Brady Bunch, The Simpsons, Daria, Futurama, etc.
And of course we can't forget the possible Twilight parody.

On a more random note, have you thought of TTL's version of you being your opposite, more or less, and have OTL be your counterpart's TL on TTL's AH.com? I would love to see your fictional AH.commers' reactions to OTL.

Now for a couple of quick questions.

How much larger will TTL's Canada's population be? Considering all the refugees Canada will get, and the fact that this Canada will be much more conservative (thus a larger baby boom than OTL's), I could see Canada having at least 50 million people. On the other, there are a lot of other factors to consider, such as Cultural Osmosis.

Also, how is Cuba going to be politically organized? Is it divided into counties or is it divided into states, with Puerto Rico or Panama as possible states?

So yeah, sorry for all my rambling. I'm really impressed with the Brilliant TL you've created!

Peace.

 

[Aelita]

Wow, it's been a long time since I've commented, but I've finally finish reading your great work!

In any case, congrats on creating a realistic world that would make Ayn Rand want to smash her head in with a brick. Still, she's probably got herself killed already, or is writing Atlas Shrugged in Canada. (Shudders)

Thanks. Given Rand's rather...obtuse...views about male-female relations and homosexuality, I have a hard time viewing her in a dispassionate manner, and am overjoyed at the prospect of causing her great philosphical discomfort from beyond the grave. I think that getting her killed in this timeline would be a great disservice, so let's say, for now, she's emigrated to Canada.

Still, I would like to make a few comments.

As for the Holocaust, I could honestly see it not happening, or at least not to the extent that happened in OTL. IIRC, Hitler apparently made a comment that went along the line of putting the Jews on luxury cruise ships if another country was willing to take them.

Obviously, the UASR would be that country, but Jews in other countries like Poland might not be as lucky once the war actually starts. Perhaps the same thing could happen to he Romani as well? It would certainly be interesting to see the UASR becoming the homeland to the vast majority of the world's Jews/Romani. Perhaps they even get their own Autonomous Socialist Republics?

It's interesting that you say that, as I'm working on something along that lines in my update for 1935 currently. We'll have to see how it turns out, but massive emigration is definitely something that will happen.

I also like how many OTL people, shows, movies, etc. are showing up in this TL. I would especially love to see this world's versions of I Love Lucy, All in the Family, The Brady Bunch, The Simpsons, Daria, Futurama, etc.
And of course we can't forget the possible Twilight parody.

The possibilities are infinite, and that's the problem There's only so much I have much knowledge of, and only so much time I have. If you want to write up your own suppositions of how these might play out and send them to me, I'd be more than happy to review them, and add them to the timeline at somepoint, credited of course.

On a more random note, have you thought of TTL's version of you being your opposite, more or less, and have OTL be your counterpart's TL on TTL's AH.com? I would love to see your fictional AH.commers' reactions to OTL.

Ah, that will be fun. I guess i'll have to do the world within the world eventually, lol.

But, in the mean time, I'm working on a dramatis personae for my rogue's gallery of commentators.

Now for a couple of quick questions.

How much larger will TTL's Canada's population be? Considering all the refugees Canada will get, and the fact that this Canada will be much more conservative (thus a larger baby boom than OTL's), I could see Canada having at least 50 million people. On the other, there are a lot of other factors to consider, such as Cultural Osmosis.

Certainly, it will have plenty of short-term and long-term ramifications. The exile community will be pretty politically potent, but the government of even the most conservative administrations will be forced to deal with the fact that America was, and still is, Canada's largest trade partner, and a militant, armed superpower right in their neighborhood. Caught between Scylla and Charybdis, so to speak.

Also, how is Cuba going to be politically organized? Is it divided into counties or is it divided into states, with Puerto Rico or Panama as possible states?

Puerto Rico is still nominally a territory of the exiled US government, but Panama is independent, and allied with the UASR. Nevertheless, the exiled US government is still nominally federalist, but in practice it is a unitary regime, with the politically franchised exiles from the US still voting based on their last state of residence for the Congress and Senate.

Effectively, the old state divisions still exist as phantoms, but effectively the established system has divided the exile community into 48 hereditary "tribes" based on their old home state. Each "tribe" elects people to represent that state in the exiled US government.

The administration of Cuba is the sole domain of the US government, and any devolved regional authority is extremely limited.

 

[TNF]

I was a bit slow on the uptake of this one, but I love what you've done with the Biblical imagery for the sake of irony in TTL's World War II. The Battle of Golan Heights is going to be great for propaganda purposes--a veritable 'Battle of Armageddon' between the forces of good (the Allies) and evil (Nazi Germany).

 

[OwenM]

Actually, I'm undecided on the first. So for now, I'm going to be deliberately vague as to who Aaron Sorkin ITTL decides to champion. Since the exposition explicitly discounted the party in power being either the Socialist Party or the Left Democrats, I'd say there's an equal chance right now of Aaron Sorkin being one of TTL's neo-conservatives and him being a far-left eco-socialist.

I don't recall ever using the acronym SUV in the timeline. Some context might be nice for me to answer your question.

Actually, I'm undecided on the first. So for now, I'm going to be deliberately vague as to who Aaron Sorkin ITTL decides to champion. Since the exposition explicitly discounted the party in power being either the Socialist Party or the Left Democrats, I'd say there's an equal chance right now of Aaron Sorkin being one of TTL's neo-conservatives and him being a far-left eco-socialist.

Hmm, more difficult than I first thought. I think the neo-cons would be more likely to want Christian support and do a coalition with the LDP, seemingly suggesting them, but I can't see them being more than a third party by the 21st century, unless the Socialists are. And I find Aaron Sorkin being on the right wing of a nation difficult to believe.
The Yes, Minister thing was great, but Deputy Secretary and Permanent Secretary are quite different positions. What positions does *Bernard (And *Humphrey, when *Bundy become First Secretary) hold? And Hacker's party was unclear though as the naive thirteen year old I am I think Alliance, since his rosette's not red or blue, and in one episode Humphrey says they stop the Government reintroducing divided education by telling Tory governments it's expensive, and Labour ones it's divisive, and then tells Hacker neither. I'm confused by his wife, as Hacker's was probably a better politician than his and usually vital whenever he outmaneuvered Humphrey, but I guess this comes from the other series.

 

[manofsteelwool]

How's the Third or Fourth International Proceeding?

I could see Trotskyists and Stalinists causing huge divisions, possibly splitting into 2 separate groups, especially after WWII.

Based on JB's recent posts, I assume relations with Ho Chi Minh will be very friendly.

What about the INC and Nehru, Jinnah, and Gandhi?

Will some members of the INC go to the UASR and for the government's support?

 

[pieman3141]

Canada would be pretty complicated. During the 1930s we had a bunch of left-wing parties come into power in the Western provinces, one of whom eventually became a national party (CCF/NDP).

I doubt this trend would've gone away, but if there were more refugees from the USA, how would have the climate changed? Would, say, Western separatism be stronger? Would the refugees go to the West and dilute the left-wing sentiment already existing?

 

[The Sandman]

Canadian politics will also be complicated by the whole "they're huge, they're right across the border, and we have an immense amount of trade with them" thing. The native-born Canadians are likely to be far more reasonable about the UASR than the USA-expats will be.

I also wonder if Uncle Joe is going to think of using the UASR as a dumping ground for the people he wants to purge? For example, send Tukhachevsky to the UASR as a permanent military attache, getting rid of him just as effectively as an execution without the need for massive precautions to keep his troops from finding out.

 

[RCAF Brat]

Canadian politics will also be complicated by the whole "they're huge, they're right across the border, and we have an immense amount of trade with them" thing. The native-born Canadians are likely to be far more reasonable about the UASR than the USA-expats will be.

Canadians will likely want two things from the US: 1. To keep the trade going. And 2. To keep the Yanks on their own side of the border. Ironically, the left wing political parties will all be for "free trade" and better relations with the US, while the right will be more nationalist, protectionist and wanting to keep the US at arm's length.

I also wonder if Uncle Joe is going to think of using the UASR as a dumping ground for the people he wants to purge? For example, send Tukhachevsky to the UASR as a permanent military attache, getting rid of him just as effectively as an execution without the need for massive precautions to keep his troops from finding out.

Sending him to the US and having the NKVD arrange an "accident" for his airplane (one that ensures that the plane simply 'disappears' over the ocean) is another possibility that would definitely appeal to Stalin. It would also be subtle enough that the Red Army isn't likely to catch on until the real purge has begun.

 

[Sean Mulligan]

Norman Bethune was a famous Canadian Communist. Maybe he will move to or at least visit the USAR.

 

[The Sandman]

Sending him to the US and having the NKVD arrange an "accident" for his airplane (one that ensures that the plane simply 'disappears' over the ocean) is another possibility that would definitely appeal to Stalin. It would also be subtle enough that the Red Army isn't likely to catch on until the real purge has begun.

Well, yes, that's certainly true. Tukhachevsky's survival would be interesting from a military perspective, though, and is something that doesn't come up very often in AH (mainly because there aren't very many ways to save him once Stalin decides he wants him gone).

It also would be a good excuse for why the USAR is heading in a novel direction as far as military development.

 

[Orville_third]

Norman Bethune was a famous Canadian Communist. Maybe he will move to or at least visit the USAR.

I mentioned him earlier. On the plus side, he may live longer (If he doesn't go to Spain and China.) Of course, if he doesn't go, the world may be deprived of the bloodmobile...

 

[Aelita]

Hmm, more difficult than I first thought. I think the neo-cons would be more likely to want Christian support and do a coalition with the LDP, seemingly suggesting them, but I can't see them being more than a third party by the 21st century, unless the Socialists are. And I find Aaron Sorkin being on the right wing of a nation difficult to believe.

Well, one thing to consider is that due to the way the UASR's electoral system is structured, it is going to have a much more multipolar party systems. In the post-war world, coalitions are going to be the rule.

Difficult, but not impossible

The Yes, Minister thing was great, but Deputy Secretary and Permanent Secretary are quite different positions. What positions does *Bernard (And *Humphrey, when *Bundy become First Secretary) hold? And Hacker's party was unclear though as the naive thirteen year old I am I think Alliance, since his rosette's not red or blue, and in one episode Humphrey says they stop the Government reintroducing divided education by telling Tory governments it's expensive, and Labour ones it's divisive, and then tells Hacker neither. I'm confused by his wife, as Hacker's was probably a better politician than his and usually vital whenever he outmaneuvered Humphrey, but I guess this comes from the other series.

Not in the UASR . ITTL, the position of Deputy Secretary in the American government will be fairly analogous to the position of Permanent Secretary in the British Cabinet, with the Deputy Secretary serving as the head civil servant in the Secretariat.

Bernard's cross-pollination holds the position of *Hacker's Chief of Staff, which in this case is pretty much a direct analogue to a Principle Private Secretary. He runs the People's Secretary's private office. *Humphrey, on the other hand, takes the position of Chief of Staff to the Central Committee (cuz it wouldn't be a proper government without possibilities for grievous mental confusion), who essentially serves as deputy secretary to the Premier.

Hacker's party was never stated explicitly. However, I figured it was appropriate for an American show of a similar premise, sense Americans generally never have a problem taking the piss out of whoever is in power at the time.

Yeah, you're correct. That's essentially straight from Married...With Children.

 

[TheCrow__]

Hey I've read most of this tl but I have'nt really seen much on the anarchist movement. How is the anarchist movement going in the USAR? I did notice Emma Goldman was involved in the govmnt. that's about it. By the way great tl I'll eventually read all you've got so far lol.