What should the United States, Britain, and France, have done differently regarding Germany, and Europe, at the End of World War One?

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If you all want my opinion, there's two paths here:
1. Germany is completely dismantled and split apart much like Austria-Hungary was, though there'd need to be a constant military presence to prevent German reunification. This is quite improbable.

2. Germany gets a slightly more lenient version of the ToV, with minor border concessions being given to Poland and France, namely Danzig and smaller parts of East Prussia and Silesia for Poland and the Saarland being given to France; the occupation zones in the Ruhr region would removed and German reparations would become a percentage of total national income or industrial output than set amounts. This might help alleviate major economic crises in Germany that lead to the rise of extremism and eventually Hitler. Also let Austria unite with Germany if it so wishes, which quells a large amount of German nationalism.
 
Otl the Austro-Hungarian and the Ottoman empires where completely destroyed and if germany where added to the list it sets the president for the complete destruction of the opposing side which up until this point in europian history was unheard of among great powers.

For comparison revolutionary France despite decades of conflict was not only not destroyed but in terms of tarritorial losses barely even punished, seeing its frontier largly roled back to the pre revolutionary borders.

(I have always found the lack of self reflection on this hypocritical when looking at proposals of the destroy Germany camp in france since they were vary much the same position as the current defeated contential antagonist just barely over 100 years prior)

For this exact reasion I would argue inversely a more lenient peace that leaves germany stripped of its conquests in the east and its over seas tarritory but otherwise largly intact on the continent offers a better chance for germany to reintigrate into the europian system in much the same way a post Napolionic France was enabled to with a more lenient peace.
OTOH, a united Germany was a relatively new thing in 1919 (with Germany only unified in 1871) with the three big names at Versailles all born when Germany was still a collection of princely states, so breaking up Germany, even if I don't agree with it, could probably be viewed as a return to the "natural" state of things, a restoration of the "balance of power", whereas France had been a unified kingdom for centuries (for a certain value of unified), so there's that.
Britain: Bad dreams about Soviets (not unjustified)
France: He's (Germany) too dangerous to be left alive.
Germany: I'm too weak, oh, don't kill me, please.
Britain: It's not the Western Way. He must live. I need him (to counter the Soviets)
On that note, honestly, a good way for stricter terms to be enforced on Germany (or at the very least stricter enforcement of terms in general) could be a non-communist Russia or the Whites winning the Civil War (doesn't matter if Russia is Tsarist or Republican) without the spectre of the Soviets and all that.
 
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Conduct an armed intervention against the Spartacists (as was on going against the Soviets) and impose Rupprecht as the new Kaiser. That gets you a 1919 invasion of Germany (for much more believable reasons than doing so to stamp out an anti-Semitic rumour), binds the German right to western alliance, squashes Prussianism, and puts a constitutional check on what is liable to be a rather unstable democracy.
 
Conduct an armed intervention against the Spartacists (as was on going against the Soviets) and impose Rupprecht as the new Kaiser. That gets you a 1919 invasion of Germany (for much more believable reasons than doing so to stamp out an anti-Semitic rumour), binds the German right to western alliance, squashes Prussianism, and puts a constitutional check on what is liable to be a rather unstable democracy.
That makes no sense and would require a total occupation of Germany. By the time that’s done the Germans would’ve forgotten the spartacists and the bigger problem would be the extreme discontent with the occupation.
 
Unfortunely such proposal make the Germans basically stronger than before the war in populationa and economic term and force the Entente to keep a sizeble army to enforce the disarmament..

They would have had to do this anyway. And if they *weren't* prepared to keep a large army to enforce disarmament, then sooner or later Germany would inevitably re-arm and the territorial terms, *whatever* they were, would go into the garbage can.

However, if Germany's borders were along ethnic lines, Germany would have to *start* any revision by demanding lands of non-German population. Such claims would be far harder for GB and France to accept and would hopefully make the era of appeasement, if any, a good deal shorter than OTL.

And Germany's hypothetical gains would at best only balance the loss of her principal allies, and not necessarily even that.

basically only the winner of the second place of the idiot olympic will agree with this term
If you check my message #37, you will see that I know perfectly well that my proposal would have been politically impossible in 1919. OTOH, since this is also true of most of what I've seen on this thread, I don't see why I should be singled out for criticism on that point.

Frankly the only thing that the proposal lack is the Entente formally admitt that they are the guilty party for the war
 
However, if Germany's borders were along ethnic lines, Germany would have to *start* any revision by demanding lands of non-German population. Such claims would be far harder for GB and France to accept and would hopefully make the era of appeasement, if any, a good deal shorter than OTL.

And Germany's hypothetical gains would at best only balance the loss of her principal allies, and not necessarily even that.
France and Uk will be forced to keep from the end of the war a sizeble armed forces and not only is political difficult but it's financial impossible for them, and there will be no appeasement, Germany at this stage because berlin can simply take what he want in the east and in the baltic.

German gain include Austria with her resources and population (we include even South Tyrol and the part given to Jugoslavia?...why not, better give poor Germany one of the best natural defensive line on the continent so she is not attacked by anyone ) and the Sudetenland, plus Danzig and Memel this mean that Berlin had his little Mitteleuropa given to her on a silver platter as Poland, Czechslovackia and Lithuania don't have any real choice but to do what Berlin say.
let's say that as hypotetical gain are neither hipotecal or little and ample rewards Germany
 
Before I get into what I would rather have had happen, here's a few things :
=> Destroying Germany : Not an option. Not only does it guarantee Germany will be back, more revanchist and militarist than ever, it will make the West even more complacent.
=> Giving in to Germany's wants : Not an option either. Germany isn't happy with its loss regardless of what conditions it's getting; making it stronger in absolute terms than it was pre-war when its primary continental rival has been crippled is just not an option.
=> Don't overstate the ability of the US to twist France and Britains' arms behind their backs. Their leaders both have internal objectives to fulfill.
=> Some things, such as Alsace-Lorraine, are non-negotiable.
The dumbest take being this one, as far as I'm concerned :
Tell the French to fuck off from the negotiations and let Britain and America hammer out the terms.
That guarantees an extreme hostile retaliation from France AND that whatever Britain and America hammer out will go unenforced.
Why ? Because the primary actor of the enforcement of the treaty of Versailles would never have been navel-gazing America or fickle Britain. It would have been those who had to live next to Germany.
Otl the Austro-Hungarian and the Ottoman empires where completely destroyed and if germany where added to the list it sets the president for the complete destruction of the opposing side which up until this point in europian history was unheard of among great powers.

For comparison revolutionary France despite decades of conflict was not only not destroyed but in terms of tarritorial losses barely even punished, seeing its frontier largly roled back to the pre revolutionary borders.

(I have always found the lack of self reflection on this hypocritical when looking at proposals of the destroy Germany camp in france since they were vary much the same position as the current defeated contential antagonist just barely over 100 years prior)

For this exact reasion I would argue inversely a more lenient peace that leaves germany stripped of its conquests in the east and its over seas tarritory but otherwise largly intact on the continent offers a better chance for germany to reintigrate into the europian system in much the same way a post Napolionic France was enabled to with a more lenient peace.
The adequate comparison starting point for the losses of post-Napoleonic France at Vienna is not 1789. It's 1802/3.
It's the loss of Belgium, Piedmont, and the Rhineland, as well as all of their influence. It's the creation of several barrier states with the sole purpose of containing them.
It's the occupation of the capital city.
Even then, the losses of Germany would best be compared to those they decided to inflict on Russia at Brest-Litovsk.

Overall, my personal tweaks :
1) Having separate treaties for each of the loser powers was imo a bad move. Allowed each power to complain that some shared clauses were unique and unfair (cough war guilt cough)
2) No professional army for Germany. Allow Germany a middle-sized purely conscripted army of 250k strong.
3) Ensure that each and every restriction on Germany is timed and tied to the proper repayment of their reparations.
4) Internationalize the Vistula. Danzig might stay German, but the Poles wouldn't be cut from the sea. (not Memel though, the Lithuanians need a port)
5) Institute a pan-European commission for the settlement of war debts and reparations and allow obligation swaps.
6) Try and convince France and Britain to give Togo or Cameroon to Italy as compensation for the lesser territorial gains in Dalmatia.
7) Ensure that the defeated powers' representatives do get a voice, even if it's purely symbolic.
8) Don't fuck with Japan. They can have their racial equality clause if they want.
9) The bit about supporting pan-Europeanists is a good move, but I sincerely doubt it'll go all the way. Still, if you can support the idea of the French and the Germans reconciliating even if it's to shake off US-UK trade and financial influence, it'll be a win in the long run.
10) Bavaria should be allowed to break off from Germany if they desire to, taking a proportional share of German reparations payments if they do, but no other restrictions.
Replace Clemenceau as French delegation/government leader prior to ToV discussions. He's fighting the 1870 conflict in his head from 50 years ago; France needs someone that doesn't have their head in the clouds or in the past, but I don't know if that's possible.
That's... not up to America... And even then he often had to make demands pro forma because they were pushed by his cabinet when he knew they were stupid.
 
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Even then, the losses of Germany would best be compared to those they decided to inflict on Russia at Brest-Litovsk.
To add some nuance to this, the independence of Ukraine that Russia had to accept in Brest-Litovsk was them being told to accept a decision the Ukrainians themselves made in response to the Bolsheviks taking over Petrograd, so I wouldn't say it was a loss inflicted on Russia at Brest-Litovsk per se:
 
I'd say keeping the monarchy would be a good idea, even if the Kaiser is replaced with the crown prince.
Leaving a power vacuum at the top seems unwise, plus it's insulting to have foreigners dictate what kind of government you can have.
Even with all the ill-feeling at the time it seems like kicking them while they were down.
 
With the benefit of hindsight, breaking up Germany into her pre-1871 demarcations with the Prussian border being aligned as per OTL with Poland.

A Kingdom of Hanover
Rhenish Republic
Grand Duchy of Hesse
Kingdom of Baden-Wurttemberg
Kingdom of Saxony
Kingdom of Prussia
Grand Duchy of Mecklenburg

The remaining territories and various smaller realms parceled up between the above.
Of course, this might sound ASB, but that is honestly the only way I can envisage Germany being punished as they should have.

Might sound ASB to some but there was French and Russian opinion thinking along those lines.
 
Whatever you give the Germans to sign, they will still say it is unfair. The state established after 1918 is completely dysfunctional, despite many years of tradition, they were unable to stop the terror in
 
Make the Treaty of Versailles a lot less harsh (Much smaller reparation payments and less strict military restrictions) , ban extremist parties (Such as the KPD or Freikorps) and allow Austria to join Germany if it wants.
 
Whatever you give the Germans to sign, they will still say it is unfair. The state established after 1918 is completely dysfunctional, despite many years of tradition, they were unable to stop the terror in

It isn't *their* opinion that matters. Like you say, that will be the same whatever.

The important thing is to modify opinion in *GB and France*, by giving them a peace which looks fair enough to deserve fighting for. Hitler got away with it as long as he limited his claims to Germán-populated areas. Only after he occupied Prague, a non-German area, did the Anglo-French attitude stiffen. If Germany already had everything to which she could make a national claim, then she would probably meet resistance a good deal sooner than OTL.
 
It isn't *their* opinion that matters. Like you say, that will be the same whatever.

The important thing is to modify opinion in *GB and France*, by giving them a peace which looks fair enough to deserve fighting for. Hitler got away with it as long as he limited his claims to Germán-populated areas. Only after he occupied Prague, a non-German area, did the Anglo-French attitude stiffen. If Germany already had everything to which she could make a national claim, then she would probably meet resistance a good deal sooner than OTL.

Sure the Anglo-French will be more capable of fight the demand of a stronger Germany, with her little squad of puppet state and with their economies in a worse state due to the military expediture.
 

kham_coc

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Sure the Anglo-French will be more capable of fight the demand of a stronger Germany, with her little squad of puppet state and with their economies in a worse state due to the military expediture.
So what you are saying is, maybe you shouldn't break up AH?
 
So what you are saying is, maybe you shouldn't break up AH?
Nope, AH was dead and nobody wanted revive the corpse sorry...better bring Germany in the league immediately to make her part of the international community and enforce the ToV when challenged but at least try to be a little flexible regarding reparation.
More importanly create a functioning alliance to support France in case of that happening, so don't screw Italy and try to create close link with Belgium (and if Leopold had some unfortunate accident
 
Just enforce the treaty in the first place...
It isn't *their* opinion that matters. Like you say, that will be the same whatever.

The important thing is to modify opinion in *GB and France*, by giving them a peace which looks fair enough to deserve fighting for. Hitler got away with it as long as he limited his claims to Germán-populated areas. Only after he occupied Prague, a non-German area, did the Anglo-French attitude stiffen. If Germany already had everything to which she could make a national claim, then she would probably meet resistance a good deal sooner than OTL.
Oh, believe me, the French were willing to enforce Versailles...
until the British and the Americans basically threatened to strangle France economically when it sought it to enforce it during the occupation of the Ruhr.
 
Oh, believe me, the French were willing to enforce Versailles...
until the British and the Americans basically threatened to strangle France economically when it sought it to enforce it during the occupation of the Ruhr.
I know the belgians went with the french. I still think Versailles wasn't that harsh, and the economic hardship Germany had was due to mismanagement.
They did not have to rebuild their whole industry nor had entire region devastated never to be used again and somehow it's Germany that suffered...
It annoy me greatly that the whole nazi propaganda of the "dictate of Versailles" survive to this day... Also a convenient way to shift the blame for starting WWII seriously...
 
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The main thing is to contain/mitigate Germany's military threat while encouraging its economic and cultural integration with the rest of Europe. The only other solution is to destroy Germany and rebuild it as was done IOTL WW2, which sort of defeats the purpose of the thread.

To this end, I'd try to have the war end in a way that Germany is properly punished as the loser, but not so imposed upon that it becomes unstable, unable to move on from the defeat, and prone to future aggression. At the same time, the Entente should try to build up other allies to contain the Germans as deterrence.

- No forced regime change. This reduces political destabilization in Germany and thus makes extremism less likely. Instead, deal with the defeated government.
- Minimize humiliating terms like occupation of the Rhineland.
- Go easier on the arms/standing army reductions. Obviously this didn't deter the Nazis IOTL.
- Keep monetary reparations.
- Build a strong alliance with Poland, Czechoslovakia, and any other viable countries in Eastern Europe. Give them a bunch of trade and diplomatic advantages so that Germany doesn't think about attacking them.

The last point is almost certainly the most important. Poland is a large country and together with Czechoslovakia is more than a match for whatever forces Germany can try to throw at it without France taking advantage of German weakness in the West.

In sum, Germany can stay intact and remain a strong industrial and economic power, but no secret should be made of the fact that the Entente intends to contain Germany so as to keep the peace, and that it's willing/able to fight another total war to do it.
 
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