What should the United States, Britain, and France, have done differently regarding Germany, and Europe, at the End of World War One?

[Deleted member 145219]

Everyone agrees that the Peace that came at the End of World War One, specifically the Treaty of Versailles, was flawed from almost the beginning and set the stage for World War II and the rise of Nazi Germany.

So what should the United States, Britain, and France have done differently regarding Germany at the End of World War One? Should they have pushed the Germans back into Germany, and take the fight to Berlin? What about the Russian Civil War?

 

[Aisha Clan-Clan]

Either given the kaisserreich all of it's territorial demands in europe or broken Germany up into it's post-westphalia divisions, with no equivalent of a Zollverein allowed going forwards. Essentially either live with continental hegemonic germany or take care of the german problem permanently.

 

[Lalli]

Either given the kaisserreich all of it's territorial demands in europe or broken Germany up into it's post-westphalia divisions, with no equivalent of a Zollverein allowed going forwards. Essentially either live with continental hegemonic germany or take care of the german problem permanently.

Well, current Germany is unified nation (altough much smaller than in 1914) and still not any threat.

But what I would had done differently:

- About same territorial losses as in OTL but allow Austria to join to Germany if want that. And let Danzig and Memel too do same.
- No demilitarisation of Rheinland, at least not permanentally. Occupation could be possible but give that clear date of end of the occupation.
- Much smaller reparations.
- Not such harsh military restrictions.

 

[oberdada]

The worst mistake was the insistence on regime change prior to the armistice, it prolonged the war by weeks and allowed those responsible to create the Dolchstoß myth.

The Kaiser, Hindenburg and Ludendorff should have had to sign armistice and peace treaty.

 

[The Ranger]

Banned extremist parties in Germany, both left and right wing.

 

[Deleted member 145219]

The worst mistake was the insistence on regime change prior to the armistice, it prolonged the war by weeks and allowed those responsible to create the Dolchstoß myth.

The Kaiser, Hindenburg and Ludendorff should have had to sign armistice and peace treaty.

That's an interesting thought. What about invading Germany?

 

[Naval Aviation Fan]

So what should the United States, Britain, and France have done differently regarding Germany at the End of World War One?

For a better peace post war?

1) More reparations, not less.
2) No restrictions on internal German laws/military, but with reparations demanding payments = too German military budgets until paid off.
3) No territorial losses unless AL going to France, and even then need to have a vote at some point after the war.
4) Occupation of Saarland and Ruhr, while France and other nations war ravaged areas are in recovery/rebuilding.
5) Absolutely enforce a demilitarized zone all along Germany's land borders with France, Belgium, Netherlands, Poland, and Czechoslovakia.

Basically, Germany has to foot to bill for all the damages caused by the war, and they have to pay at least as much on Reparations as they are spending on their Military budgets. While the reparations are still not paid off, occupation of demilitarized zones, without risk of losing these territories are a thing, so faster paid off is faster withdrawal of foreign troops from German soil, and don't piss the Germans off with any of the OTL interference, like restrictions on the German armed forces and such. The cost of the occupation is of course entirely extracted from the German economy, so no nation post war is footing this bill but the Germans themselves.

This doesn't make the Germans want revenge like the OTL TOV does, it doesn't rightfully give the Germans all that much to complain about, and it leaves them their international dignity and they retain their great power status.

I would have some questions now:

If something like this were to have been done, how long would the occupation zones have been in effect? How long until the war ravaged areas of france and other nations could be back up and running? How would the Germans have been included in TTL WNT

 

[oberdada]

That's an interesting thought. What about invading Germany?

Why?

 

[Eeloo]

Austria, Sudetenland, Memel and the city of Danzig are given to Germany. All Volksdeutsche outside the borders of the Weimar Republic are systematically repatriated. The nation-states of Central and Eastern Europe are ethnically homogenized (as was done after WW2 in OTL) in order to thwart the resurgence of irredentist claims. The Rhineland is demilitarized in perpetuity: the Treaty of Versailles must state black on white that any violation of this rule by Germany is considered an act of war.

 

[Garrison]

Disarm the German Army and send it trudging home under the guard of Entente soldiers, leave no one in any doubt that the Germany Army was defeated on the battlefield and strangle the stabbed in the back myth.

 

[Sasza]

Destroy Germany

There is no other solution because it is too dangerous a country.

 

[Deleted member 145219]

Destroy Germany

There is no other solution because it is too dangerous a country.

Britain: Bad dreams about Soviets (not unjustified)
France: He's (Germany) too dangerous to be left alive.
Germany: I'm too weak, oh, don't kill me, please.
Britain: It's not the Western Way. He must live. I need him (to counter the Soviets)

 

[West234]

Destroy Germany

There is no other solution because it is too dangerous a country.

Honestly I think this would just make everything worse in the long term and likely it would not be successful.
1. Many more casualties would be required to fully capture Germany by the allies which would further spread resentment in Germany itself.
2. A fracture Germany would likely face an economic collapse across its many nations that would further worsen relations.
3. It would also make German militarily weak meaning it would be easy for Communist and Far right elements to take over specific areas as they tried to do IOT. Not to mention possible conquests by neighbors like the Soviets or Polish.
All this discontent would just bubble over in an eventual revolution to unify re German that would spark a new government likely just as brutal as the Nazis.

 

[Dorknought]

Destroy Germany

There is no other solution because it is too dangerous a country.

So..., complete western control and oversight of Germany's education system until reparations are paid off in the 1970s?

 

[pjmidd]

About same territorial losses as in OTL but allow Austria to join to Germany if want that. And let Danzig and Memel too do same.

Austria, Sudetenland, Memel and the city of Danzig are given to Germany.

No way in 1918 are you getting a Germany that gains territory, the thought of Austria + Germany as a single country would unite the Italians and French to restart the war if that was needed to stop it. Too much blood split to allow anything that looked like Germany/Austria getting even a draw.

 

[Hugh Third of Five]

Make territorial changes by plebiscite/referendum and only by plebiscite/referendum. If you're going to talk about making the world safe for democracy, you should practice what you preach. France would still get Alsace-Lorraine and Denmark would still get Schleswig-Holstein, but Germany would keep Danzig. Let the voters also determine how Austria-Hungary breaks up, which probably means Austria keeps the Sudetenland.

Destroy Germany

There is no other solution because it is too dangerous a country.

How? Split it into pieces like it was beofre 1870? Well then what's to stop them from re-uniting? If you say force, well I don't see how that's different from saying Britain and France could have used force to stop German rearmament and aggression with OTL treaty of Versailles.

 

[wcv215]

Austria, Sudetenland, Memel and the city of Danzig are given to Germany.

Yeah, so basically just surrender. As usual with alternate peace proposals. 🙄

Anyhoo, frankly I kind of agree with doing more to ensure that it was the twit Kaiser and his military dicators who have to surrender to try and prevent the stabbed in the back myth from occurring. Insist on war crimes trials being undertaken by a government that won't cover them up, so not the Germans. More reparations that actually have to be paid. Have a function built into the treaty reducing limitations on Germany as it pays the reparations off, giving an actual incentive to do so.

When the inevitable fascist state emerges as the German "moderate" right decides they'd prefer a genocidal war-mongering dicatorship over even the slightest bit of democracy land on that fascist state with both feet before they can start the genocidal war of conquest.

 

[Yankeewolf]

Everyone agrees that the Peace that came at the End of World War One, specifically the Treaty of Versailles, was flawed from almost the beginning and set the stage for World War II and the rise of Nazi Germany.

So what should the United States, Britain, and France have done differently regarding Germany at the End of World War One? Should they have pushed the Germans back into Germany, and take the fight to Berlin? What about the Russian Civil War?

The central failing was that Wilson was right and everyone else was wrong. However, due to his own physical frailties as well as the fact that America had not been in the fight for nearly as long, his demands were shunted aside. That, and his own vices ruined his position as well as America's position to help determine the peace being a glad one.

So have him be willing to call everyone's bluff and play "mad dog" diplomacy at Versailles to scare Clemenceau and David Lloyd George into cooperation with American aims.

 

[DUWANG]

I know, big words coming from a proud Weimarboo, but breaking up Germany through military force not only tanks Europe's economy even more, but you also at best created a bunch of mini Afghanistans that will not only be ruled by absolute weirdos by both political ends but will also commit terrorist acts towards Allied troops inside of the German states at best and terrorist acts towards Allied civilians outside of Germany.
And worst case scenario you will have the Allies fuck up the occupation resulting in a united and absolute hate boner having state that would either be communist, fascist/para-Nazi or a interesting mix of extreme nationalistic socialism.

Have plebiscites in the areas Germany lost without those in OTL (especially the part Czechoslovakia lost and Poland got from East Prussia simply because it had a railway connection). Have the plebiscite in Eupen-Malmedy be actually fair and free, let Germany retain Upper Silesia because technically the area as a whole voted to remain in Germany (Something that the British were advocating for, but the Franco-Polish block won partly over), don't let Lithuania with France's help grab the Memelland without an actual plebiscite. Other small areas maybe favouring the German side more in the Schleswig plebiscite, but that one was the least insulting to the German population.

Outside of that just be more open and true to the reparation thing. The Allies never expected Germany to pay all of it and never planed for that. The plan was to get the money that they can get and then "pardon" Germany by saying that they don't have to pay the C section of the reparations anymore.
The reason why that was fucking stupid is because while it satisfied the population at home it absolutely enraged the German state and the German population, which was rightfully angry because the full amount was too big to pay up.
Thing is, while might saying that you want this much while actually planning to forgive reparations after a certain amount sounds like a good idea to satisfy everyone at the end, it resulted in the loosing side not having any of this...

So deleting the C section of the reparations wouldn't have given any financial looses compared to OTL.

Maybe let Germany have a bit more military so it doesn't have the "Even Czechoslovakia can beat us" feeling that it has in OTL. So maybe 200 thousand men and very few tanks and aircrafts for defense, so no bombers for example.

And to end this rant, have France and Britain have a different policy.
France in the sense that it listens mroe to it's pan European advocates who already had hopes for a new Franco-German relationship not unlike the post WW2 one OTL.
In Britains case let it be more open for a pan European political body. In OTL it opposed those ideas in fear that the League of Nations would loose even more power than it already doesn't have.

 

[quickdraw101]

Tell the French to fuck off from the negotiations and let Britain and America hammer out the terms.