Of lost monkeys and broken vehicles

Is there even a Patriarch of Constantinople at this point?

The see became vacant when Chrusanthus was hung, if it remains vacant until Constantinople is liberated by Allied (presumably Greek forces for the same reason that French forces liberated Paris) why not just appoint the Metropolitan of Athens Patriarch and downgrade Athens.
The see became vacant, the question is if an election would be held while the war is still underway or not. Technically election of the ecumenical patriarch should be still subject to the "General Regulations" of 1860, probably modified TTL for the election of Meletios IV, with the removal of the requirement for the sultan to approve candidates. But the regulations called for the election by a mixed body of clerics and laity. With Constantinople, nearly all of Asia Minor and Greece over the Olympus occupied there are... obvious technical difficulties.
was it? @Lascaris. And if it was , what is its carrying capacity? Can it support logistics for three corps (the minimum needed for an assault on the European side (two by land one by aero-naval operations)? We also to forget that this railroad can be flanked through Kresna Gorge or the Edirne/Adrianople gap from Axis forces in Bulgaria.
What was built was an additional line going from Alexandroupolis through Kesani/Kesan to Tyroloe/Corlu and from there straight to Constantinople, instead of having to follw the existing line going north to Andrianople and from there to Constantinople. But first you need to get to Andrianople...


So on the status of Constantinople in the post-war world there is a lot to look at:

ITTL Constantinople voted to join with Greece June 27, 1940 but crucially this was a non-binding referendum and even though de-facto Greek control started around this time; with the departure of the high commissioners aside from the British and Greek ones; de-jure Greek control was only proclaimed with the British and French abandonment of the city February 19, 1941. By March 13th, 1941 the city was secure enough in the hands of Turkey that they felt comfortable executing the Patriarch. So de-jure Greek control lasted at most a week or two, was almost immediately challenged by Turkey, and only occurred because the Greek army refused to declare an open city and evacuate as the British High Commissioner wanted them to do. What will a crucial point in the post-war negotiations is did the French, British, USA, etc. recognize the declaration of Enosis in February 1941 in any way, shape, or form. The story doesn't mention it one way or the other.
I'm shocked, shocked that I left that open. How could it happen? :angel:
I do think overall though there is a higher chance of the first Greek boots in the city crossing the straits rather than marching through Thrace. I would also wonder at the quality and TOE of the 2 Turkish division left in the straits area. Are they still up to standard in equipment, numbers, and training or have they been raided by active fronts over the last 2 years to the point that they are little more than a heavily armed gendarme fully capable of occupation but would have difficulty resisting even a small push from the Greek army crossing the straits.
They are still on 1941 TOE... or in other words WAY less artillery and heavy weapons than the units fighting in the active fronts. And they've been mostly static garrison forces since early 1941...
Executing the Patriarch, even if he was a clearly partisan actor, seems like something which won't easily be forgotten come peace time.
Well it looked like a good idea at the time. but then at the time it looked as if Germany was going to be the dominant power in Europe and Britain about to be forced to come to terms...

The obvious rebuttal is that the Turkish/Muslim population had no say in this referendum whatsoever. I frankly doubt any of the Allies recognized the referendum.
The point from the Greek point of view both in this and in the Greek units not following the British and French out of the city was solidifying the Greek claim for after the war. How well does this work out...
Of course post-war I’m sure many of the Turks of Constantinople will have fled with the retreating Turkish armies and many of the rest will be ethnically cleansed, so the Greeks will win.
Between 1921-41 you had the Asian side of the city being the Italian sector and the European side being the British, French and Greek sectors. Given differences in policies and tensions erupting to occasional violence for two decades it would be unsurprising to see more pronounced Turkish population growth of the Asian side compared to the European side and vice versa. Post the current round of unpleasantness it wouldn't be surprising to see arguments for separating the communities altogether no matter the actual status of the city.
 
The UNSC seat for Greece is impossible as long as Roosevelt lives. We are talking about a person who thought the Big Four should disarm everybody else in the world (see Anderson Perry, US Foreign Policy and its Thinkers, and McDougall Promised Land, Crusader Nation). Now the idea permanent members without veto power is interesting, and could be some kind of regional representation thing (so one per region), and sure in this case Greece could nab it. So half the non-voting UNSC seats being permanent, and half voted. That could work. As long as the "small folk" cannot impose anything on the major powers, they might let this take place. Especially if they can use this as justification to denying accommodating the candidate states on other issues of more importance.
Yeah I like Greece but I really can’t see them having veto power over the UNSC. Even if they’re a significantly bigger player in this world, they aren’t the big 5. I do think the permanent seat with no veto power has potential though. I could definitely see that being handed out to quite a few second tier powers on the Allies side. Canada comes to mind immediately, Australia maybe, Yugoslavia maybe if it survives in one piece, Iran maybe. Stalin would probably want a member of TTL’s Warsaw Pact. Romania maybe?
 
Yeah I like Greece but I really can’t see them having veto power over the UNSC. Even if they’re a significantly bigger player in this world, they aren’t the big 5. I do think the permanent seat with no veto power has potential though. I could definitely see that being handed out to quite a few second tier powers on the Allies side. Canada comes to mind immediately, Australia maybe, Yugoslavia maybe if it survives in one piece, Iran maybe. Stalin would probably want a member of TTL’s Warsaw Pact. Romania maybe?

I'm not saying it's unlikely to happen, I could see the big 5 hatching out a compromise like that to get some of their friends at the table as well. But the problem is that this opens up Pandora's Box, and within the decade every second-rate power is going to be applying for a secondary seat on the UNSC, and there wouldn't be much precedent to deny them.

The whole point of the UNSC permanent seats was to create a big kid's table for the great powers of 1945. The meaningfulness of that power split is diluted with secondary power added to that table.
 
I'm not saying it's unlikely to happen, I could see the big 5 hatching out a compromise like that to get some of their friends at the table as well. But the problem is that this opens up Pandora's Box, and within the decade every second-rate power is going to be applying for a secondary seat on the UNSC, and there wouldn't be much precedent to deny them.

The whole point of the UNSC permanent seats was to create a big kid's table for the great powers of 1945. The meaningfulness of that power split is diluted with secondary power added to that table.
I'll be less generous.

There's absolutely no chance whatsoever Greece becomes a permanent USNC member and the very question is itself ridiculous. There's a reason only five nations were selected to start, all of which were considered either global powers or least civilizational powers, of which even a much more prosperous Greece is neither. As you've said, it would dilute the reason to have permanent members entirely, and they frankly just don't have the clout for it. Greece in this timeline can very much get Constantinople and Cyprus but they're not getting veto powers, lets be real here.
 
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What was built was an additional line going from Alexandroupolis through Kesani/Kesan to Tyroloe/Corlu and from there straight to Constantinople, instead of having to follw the existing line going north to Andrianople and from there to Constantinople. But first you need to get to Andrianople...
Thank you my dear @Lascaris .
I believe this ends the debate my dear fellows. There is no direct rail line from Thessaloniki to Constantinople that does not pass through Nish and Sofia. The main assault must come against there.
 
Thank you my dear @Lascaris .
I believe this ends the debate my dear fellows. There is no direct rail line from Thessaloniki to Constantinople that does not pass through Nish and Sofia. The main assault must come against there.
Nope the is an already existing railroad from Thessaloniki to Constantinople that was built in the ottoman era
 
You are right there is line (Initially I was perplexed, but later checked miltary sources) so I stand corrected on that. But it was of neglible strategic value (ergo why it played little role in the Ottoman planning of the First Balkan War or Greek operations in the Second Balkan War). It in no way changes the point of my argument over the superiority of operations against Nish vs. operations against Constantinople.

Ο Ελληνικός Στρατός κατά τους Βαλκανικούς Πολέμους 1912-13 (Τόμος Α΄).jpg
 
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You are right there is line (Initially I was perplexed, but later checked miltiary sources) but it was of neglible strategic value. It in no way change the point of my argument.

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Yes even to this day the rail line is still single line.. now I don't know the capacity of this line..i imagine lower that the pre war athens to Thessaloniki line that had a capacity of 20 trains per day
 
I'll be less generous.

There's absolutely no chance whatsoever Greece becomes a permanent USNC member and the very question is itself ridiculous. There's a reason only five nations were selected to start, all of which were considered either global powers or least civilizational powers, of which even a much more prosperous Greece is neither. As you've said, it would dilute the reason to have permanent members entirely, and they frankly just don't have the clout for it. Greece in this timeline can very much get Constantinople and Cyprus but they're not getting veto powers, lets be real here.
Interesting point of view to mark a question as ridiculous, especially without addressing any of the arguments which go with it, or even reading the whole text (nobody mentioned veto powers).

After all, this is AH, and the very essence of it is to explore the unlikely, and most importantly, to have fun.
To my view, calling the exploration of a reasonable question "ridiculous" is neither fun, nor very AH.
 
I have traveled on that line during military service. What I was meaning is that I was not aware that line was pre-1914. That I did not know.
It made obvious sense IMO TTL to extend the line straight from Alexandroupolis east if for no other reason to cut travel time on the Athens-Thessaloniki-Constantinople railroad by several hours in the 1920s it probably made more sense to by ship from Piraeus to Constantinople than go by rail in terms of travel time. That said you first need to get to Alexandroupolis for the line east to matter.

Now in OTL the Greek network from Athens to Thessaloniki and from there east to Komotini (and north to the Yugoslav and Bulgarian borders) managed 20 trains of 35 cars each which worked out during operations to 4,400t per day the quote below is from Papagos. Work was underway to increase capacity to 24 trains per day so about ~5,300t Notably in OTL from Komotini east capacity went down to 12 trains per day so ~2,640t

To make things funnier... the port capacity of Thessaloniki was only 3,000t per day... so in effect even with Thessaloniki liberated you are still dependent on supplies going up north from Piraeus.

1682278742381.png
 
Besides Constantinople I wouldn’t be surprised if Turkish areas bordering the Marmara and Aegean seas are also handled over to Greece as punishment. With a so many internal refugees the war will create like OTL Greece will want an excuse to easily settle them elsewhere.

Also I know this is somewhat off track but I’m really interested how the Middle East will be further impacted. From what I’ve seen the Arabs will be even more screwed than OTL, Iran might actually get a better bargain from Britain over oil, and worse sectarianism thanks to a possible independent Alawite state and more.
 
From what I’ve seen the Arabs will be even more screwed than OTL
I’m not actually sure that’s true. While they might not control as much land as they do OTL assuming Kurdistan and a potential Alawite state forms, in addition to some form of Lebanon, they still have a lot of land and oil in general. If my memory is correct the king of Jordan has been promised Iraq as well. That’s a large and powerful country, especially if it scoops up interior Syria at some point. That’s a lot of oil and a lot of people which could provide the basis for a very strong and stable nation if the Hashemite’s play their cards right.
 
I’m not actually sure that’s true. While they might not control as much land as they do OTL assuming Kurdistan and a potential Alawite state forms, in addition to some form of Lebanon, they still have a lot of land and oil in general. If my memory is correct the king of Jordan has been promised Iraq as well. That’s a large and powerful country, especially if it scoops up interior Syria at some point. That’s a lot of oil and a lot of people which could provide the basis for a very strong and stable nation if the Hashemite’s play their cards right.
Knowing the Arab nationalist movement and some of its opposition towards monarchies, I’m not convinced. Especially if the humiliation towards losing WWII only creates more resentment.
 
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