The New Order: Last Days of Europe - An Axis Victory Cold War Mod for HoIIV

[Doodger]

The US is already fairly interventionist in TNO1 and it will be even more so in 2 i don't see a problem with that.

The American public is not so keen on intervening in South Africa (past the initial commitments), and likewise in Indonesia if the war drags on IIRC
Most of the 60s president that come to mind have largely domestic agendas

Also the US does not intervene to save Germany,they negotiate a German leaning peace that gets the reich in their sphere of influence there is quite a difference there that gets forgotten a lot.

Losing Russian Friendship by defending the continued occupation of eastern Europe by Germany is still a very harsh departure IMO of 1962 America.
Again, as you say, it may be more nuanced than that in universe, but it still seems to me counter intuitive when America may have spent millions rebuilding Russia to counter Germany.

 

[Impirius]

Again, as you say, it may be more nuanced than that in universe, but it still seems to me counter intuitive when America may have spent millions rebuilding Russia to counter Germany.

I disagree,securing US dominance over Europe throw the controlled collapse of the Reich is better than trusting Zhukov to be pro-OFN.
Moraly is pretty wrong,but morality rearly factors into international politics as anything more than a cover or tertiary argument.

 

[Workable Goblin]

Also the US does not intervene to save Germany,they negotiate a German leaning peace that gets the reich in their sphere of influence there is quite a difference there that gets forgotten a lot.

The Reich, unless it's actually disintegrated into civil war, is a major nuclear power no matter how badly it might be doing economically and politically. At most it might follow America's lead for a few decades before breaking away, like Russia did IOTL after the end of the Cold War. By comparison, Russia has been devastated by years of war and won't be a credible peer competitor to the United States for decades, kind of like China during the actual Cold War. Unless Russia has been unified by one of the really crazy unifiers, there's no real reason for the United States to negotiate any kind of German-leaning peace deal.

Losing Russian Friendship by defending the continued occupation of eastern Europe by Germany is still a very harsh departure IMO of 1962 America.
Again, as you say, it may be more nuanced than that in universe, but it still seems to me counter intuitive when America may have spent millions rebuilding Russia to counter Germany.

Or even billions, if you really hammer those decisions.

Especially if Russia is democratic or united under one of the weaker regimes (or both), there's really no reason for the United States to try to get the Reich "into its sphere of influence". Russia has far more natural resources than Germany (e.g., oil) and under many (or even most) possible unifiers is going to be pretty open to large-scale American investment in order to overcome the damage that years of warlordism did. Even after it unifies and develops a nuclear program, it is still going to be a clearly secondary or tertiary power, whereas the Reich is at least going to remember itself being a superpower and try to reclaim that status until it actually falls apart or completely reforms internally. There is just a lot more to gain from the United States making friends with the Russians than with the Germans. Now, in the long run could Russian-American tensions become a problem? Sure, but probably not until the 2000s or beyond, and by then China is probably another big issue for both of them that will help keep them together.

At most, I could see the United States stepping in to mediate if things are getting close to a nuclear war between Russia and Germany, especially if Japan is preoccupied with the Great Asian War and/or Kishi's nonsense. But this would probably be more to avoid, you know, global thermonuclear war while propping up Russia as much as possible as a credible competitor with Germany than to try to "pull Germany into its sphere," which would be about as believable as the United States putting the Soviet Union in its sphere in the 1970s IOTL.

 

[Doodger]

I disagree,securing US dominance over Europe throw the controlled collapse of the Reich is better than trusting Zhukov to be pro-OFN.
Moraly is pretty wrong,but morality rearly factors into international politics as anything more than a cover or tertiary argument.

it's fair to argue against morality being a preponderant factor in foreign policy; after all, cold geographical realities dictates the flow of a lot of events, and someone like Sablin or the Tomskian Republic would both seek similar things to Zhukov (eastern Europe within the Russian Sphere, for national defense reasons). That said, looking at the geopolitics of the OFN, I still see Russia as the stronger ally because America seeks to guard the Atlantic and Pacific seas, and Russia will have almost zero power projection whereas Germany (and Japan) will remain as naval powers as well as nuclear powers. In domestic politics I'd also argue that it would be a terrible look for the RDs to sell Russian friendship to America for pennies on the dollar, and in democracies popular will does have an effect on foreign policy.

Especially if Russia is democratic or united under one of the weaker regimes (or both), there's really no reason for the United States to try to get the Reich "into its sphere of influence". Russia has far more natural resources than Germany (e.g., oil) and under many (or even most) possible unifiers is going to be pretty open to large-scale American investment in order to overcome the damage that years of warlordism did

I concur!

 

[Impirius]

That said, looking at the geopolitics of the OFN, I still see Russia as the stronger ally because America seeks to guard the Atlantic and Pacific seas, and Russia will have almost zero power projection whereas Germany (and Japan) will remain as naval powers as well as nuclear powers.

In my eyes this comes down to who unifies because Tomsk and Democratic Komi Russia don't have the ideological problem that make Sablin and Zhukov unreliable partners.

I concur!

The socialist unfiers have 1 more minus because of this actually.

 

[Workable Goblin]

In my eyes this comes down to who unifies because Tomsk and Democratic Komi Russia don't have the ideological problem that make Sablin and Zhukov unreliable partners.

The socialist unfiers have 1 more minus because of this actually.

Not ITTL. Remember, the dominant strain of Communism ITTL is Bukharinism, so most of the socialists are actually quite open to foreign investments and quasi-private business. Even IOTL, Stalin partnered with foreign (mostly U.S.) companies to assist in his industrialization programs, since they had technical capabilities and resources that the Soviets didn't. Most of the sane unifiers would probably do the exact same ITTL after '72, since anyone with a brain can see that getting American investments means building up the country to face Germany on a relatively equal footing more quickly and easily than not getting those investments. There might be some vague talk about "eventually" socializing things, and most likely American businesses would be forced into joint ventures, but this wouldn't really be a political issue for a few decades (kind of like in China).

(Never mind that it's not really necessary in-game because Russia usually ends up with scads of industry, especially if the unifier is a Siberian Plan beneficiary)

 

[brooklyn99]

Perhaps there is some nuance that would make the US doing what it did in canon! 2WRW look sufficiently reasonable, at least from their POV. As it stands now, Panzer and co have been vague about the context surrounding the American-brokered ceasefire.

 

[Impirius]

Perhaps there is some nuance that would make the US doing what it did in canon! 2WRW sufficiently reasonable, at least from their POV.

There are 2 nuclear powers in open war,its Zhukov,Borman or his successor is willing to make concessions,anyone but Kirkpatrick would seriously consider the option.
There are plenty of reasons for it to happen in my book.

 

[BBadolato]

It isnt

I know, but it feels like it should not even last a year, or at least two some. Like what exactly is Taboritsky's support base outside genuine conservative monarchists, clergy, those perhaps piggy backing thinking Taboritsky can be easily controlled, and maybe those who just want to survive at this point? I don't see how people could just be cool with lets go create a society where you cannot advance, and later your killed for just being homeless, on top of having people killed for doing bad on the job, failure, or any of the other insanely frivolous reasons that exist outside of National Socialist ideology. I know MST3K mantra should be in effect but the HRE seems to just be ridiculously over the top brutal, and a bunch 40k references.

At least I can hope for some sense with the HRE post break not looking as bad as initially advertised.

 

[Impirius]

Like what exactly is Taboritsky's support base outside genuine conservative monarchists, clergy, those perhaps piggy backing thinking Taboritsky can be easily controlled, and maybe those who just want to survive at this point?

Everyone that isn't omniscient and is already too deep to back down.

 

[Doodger]

In my eyes this comes down to who unifies because Tomsk and Democratic Komi Russia don't have the ideological problem that make Sablin and Zhukov unreliable partners.

Tomsk and Dem!Komi (especially more ruthless people like Stalina or Kharms) would run into a similar problem, I think.

Geographically, a safe Russia is one that has a buffer space between itself and central Europe, I think. It's why almost every Russia/Soviet Union will find it necessary for Byelorussia and Ukraine to be within the Russian orbit, or at the very least without the German sphere.

If America is willing to lose the WRRF!Soviet Union as a friend then it is likely that America judges Russian resources and trade as acceptable losses. As such it would not matter that much if Russia is capitalist, socialist, autarkist, etc... What seems to matter to the American foreign policy establishment in this scenario is keeping the Russians as far as possible from central Europe. This will be the sticking point between almost any Russia, and America. What America might see as "preventing German collapse" (in the scenario where they bail out Germany) the Russians will see as an eternal dagger pointed at their heart.

 

[White Aurora]

A leak from the Discord's server of the moeriech submod showing superevents.

 

[BBadolato]

Everyone that isn't omniscient and is already too deep to back down.

Perhaps but it seems like there is plenty of resistance, on so many levels. Like I feel some of this path is just one big old meme.

Tomsk and Dem!Komi (especially more ruthless people like Stalina or Kharms) would run into a similar problem, I think.

Geographically, a safe Russia is one that has a buffer space between itself and central Europe, I think. It's why almost every Russia/Soviet Union will find it necessary for Byelorussia and Ukraine to be within the Russian orbit, or at the very least without the German sphere.

If America is willing to lose the WRRF!Soviet Union as a friend then it is likely that America judges Russian resources and trade as acceptable losses. As such it would not matter that much if Russia is capitalist, socialist, autarkist, etc... What seems to matter to the American foreign policy establishment in this scenario is keeping the Russians as far as possible from central Europe. This will be the sticking point between almost any Russia, and America. What America might see as "preventing German collapse" (in the scenario where they bail out Germany) the Russians will see as an eternal dagger pointed at their heart.

If this boils down to practically, and someone as numbers and 'logic' oriented as McNamara is in power which I think is the canon, than I can see this as his logic. I feel this dilemma would be different for each president, assuming Hall and Yockney have much of a functioning America left to do something about it.

 

[Impirius]

Tomsk and Dem!Komi (especially more ruthless people like Stalina or Kharms) would run into a similar problem, I think.

Stalina and Kharms would definitely have problems,but the nature of there disagreement would be far more manageable.
Dealing with Russian territorial chauvinism and nationalism under a democratic system is pretty different from dealing with 1 party state dictatorships that consider your state "reactionary".
Regardless when it comes out the option to take the risk will be available and i can see Zhukov into SocDem USSR working with the US somewhat fine,Sablin not really.

 

[Doodger]

I feel Hall might be an isolationist for a good deal of his path.

 

[Impirius]

I feel Hall might be an isolationist for a good deal of his path.

He is confirmed to deal with the USSR if present and collapse the OFN i think.

 

[AeroTheZealousOne]

View attachment 603381
A leak from the Discord's server of the moeriech submod showing superevents.

Say what you will with your opinions on anime, manga, and similar artwork, but this is downright fitting and excellent stuff for a TNO submod.

 

[Kingfish Chris]

Seriously, what are thoughts on Nenni being unable to remove the Monarchy in Italy, while a Reform Scorza can easily remove the monarchy in Italy?

 

[Whiteshore]

Seriously, what are thoughts on Nenni being unable to remove the Monarchy in Italy, while a Reform Scorza can easily remove the monarchy in Italy?

Well, it is IIRC because the democratic path for Italy empowers royalist elements in the military.

 

[Waltzing Brunhilda]

Seriously, what are thoughts on Nenni being unable to remove the Monarchy in Italy, while a Reform Scorza can easily remove the monarchy in Italy?

I have some problems with it mostly since I'm a monarchist but it's more likely that Scorza would keep more conservative and therefore monarchist officers in power so I expect there to be a least some blowback from the military.