The speed increases seem optimistic, especially for B. I can't see her topping out at more than 26-27 knots, though I'm no expert on hull form or machinery so anyone with a better knowledge of it is welcome to prove me wrong. Having read Hippodrome, with the World's might focused on stopping the aliens(is that what they are?), it seems like just dropping the turrets in a whole new ship might be better, and be done at a similar date or earlier.
Again mindful that this thread perhaps isn't really the place for it, as an explanation I'll just quickly note the context and then put what is at the head of that part.
Which is probably one reason why thoughts, feedback and solutions might be useful over there given the headaches I've gone through trying to reconcile and integrate technologies with a programme that whilst good isn't able to quite facilitate it all.
Sargon
The reconstruction has been largely done with the help and significantly advanced technology from a non-Earth power with the resources of a realm stretching across more than one world. They were keen to see how far they could modernise existing naval vessels of Earth's various naval powers.
This redesign has been carried out with the assistance of the Springsharp warship simulation programme. However, please be aware the program is limited in the items that need to be tweaked. There is no provision for entering specific details in terms of engineering weights and efficiencies represented by Gerinian expertise for example which is many years ahead of that of the Earth powers. For example, their advances in oil fired steam plants and different types of diesel engines has resulted in significantly more compact, efficient and lightweight installations. In terms of advancement early work on experimental gas turbine plants are already underway too. These installations are not possible to be accurately modelled in Springsharp, especially as the programme only allows engine installation up to a 1950 date. For the same reason advances in metallurgy, chemistry and armour development is another item that is not easily represented in the programme for example where armour that is thinner but tougher is available.
I am by no means much of a mathematician, but I have done what I can given the information available, the constraints of the program and the nature of the improvements the Gerinians, the Grand Alliance and the Hakkor possess in an in-story context. Mixing fact with otherworld fiction is not easy.
If anyone notices details that may have suffered from this process and wishes to offer solutions, please do so.
Also, if anyone wishes to have a go at a Shipbucket type image, feel free to do so.
I am by no means much of a mathematician, but I have done what I can given the information available, the constraints of the program and the nature of the improvements the Gerinians, the Grand Alliance and the Hakkor possess in an in-story context. Mixing fact with otherworld fiction is not easy.
If anyone notices details that may have suffered from this process and wishes to offer solutions, please do so.
Also, if anyone wishes to have a go at a Shipbucket type image, feel free to do so.
Which is probably one reason why thoughts, feedback and solutions might be useful over there given the headaches I've gone through trying to reconcile and integrate technologies with a programme that whilst good isn't able to quite facilitate it all.
Sargon
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Unknown Gunboat of the British North American Naval Militia on the St Lawrence River during the Quebec Rebellion of 1940.
Say you're a Baltic Sea country in the mid-1930s, be it Poland, Sweden, the USSR, Germany, or some insane Finland/Denmark/whoever wank and are looking to design a modern coastal defense ship to counter something like the Gangut-class dreadnoughts, Sverige-class pansarskepp, or anything the Germans have in the mid-30s like the Deutschland-class. Your politicians and people are absolutely dead-set on getting a coastal defense ship instead of a modern battleship because of cost yet don't want more aircraft or submarines/torpedo boats because of the need for a prestigious ship.
What would the design look like? Maybe 11-14 inch guns and a max speed of about 26 knots and displacing around 10,000 tons?
What would the design look like? Maybe 11-14 inch guns and a max speed of about 26 knots and displacing around 10,000 tons?
Given the specifications a far more simple solution would be to build up minewarfare naval units and create vast mine barriers in times of war around the coastline, as well as installing fixed and railway mounted heavy artillery on the coast at strategic points and mobile fast attack units in coastal ports to both defend the minefields and to attack anything coming close enough to threaten the coastline with bombardment or likewise. Add to this a strong (naval) airforce with anti shipping capabilities and any threat in the form of a Baltic Navy can be dealt with. No need to waste resources on one off larger ships at all, if this was the only requirement the navy had to deal with. (In history the German Navy never was so one sides in requirements, as there also was another coast to defend and political issues to take into account.)
It can't be done on 10,000 tons. The ship you're looking for is a Deutschland Class ship with Battleship level armour, so it'd probably come out at around 18 - 20,000 tons.
You need an upgraded Sveridge-class; replace the 11" with 14", modernize the secondary armament, remove the torpedo tubes and add a couple of inches of armour on the belt and turrets. That might stay at the 10.000 ton limit.
Say that the start of WW1 is delayed to the summer of 1915 for some reason.
What effect would this have on the major navies?
Some things I notice:
Ships completed/commissioned during that period of the war would still be completed/commissioned. They would just be peacetime additions rather than war time.
Ottomans would have likely gotten Agincourt (Rio de Jenario) and Erin.
While Agincourt (Queen Elizabeth class) might be completed eventually instead of canceled.
Erin's (or in this case Reşadiye's) sister Fatih Sultan Mehmed's construction would be further along. Would either be seized by Britain and completed or seized by Britain and scrapped.
What effect would this have on the major navies?
Some things I notice:
Ships completed/commissioned during that period of the war would still be completed/commissioned. They would just be peacetime additions rather than war time.
Ottomans would have likely gotten Agincourt (Rio de Jenario) and Erin.
While Agincourt (Queen Elizabeth class) might be completed eventually instead of canceled.
Erin's (or in this case Reşadiye's) sister Fatih Sultan Mehmed's construction would be further along. Would either be seized by Britain and completed or seized by Britain and scrapped.
To get 300 submarines before WW2 would require a major POD and significantly no signing of the AGNA and therefore a UK Government who no longer thinks Heer Hitler is someone with whom they can deal with resulting in a far different attitude to Hitler's late 30s brinkmanship
And 300 submarines have only one target - the UK - who were very unhappy with the 60 odd Germany started WW2 with
HMNZS Kia one of the four Kingfisher class sloops that formed the initial strength of the Royal New Zealand Navy in 1936, backed up by 12 armed trawlers.
As many have said, your numbers are off by a good bit, take the subs for instance, why would an EU force need 36 SSBNs? That's a massive number particularly as unlike the US, the EU force is unlikely to have "two ocean" operations, 12 or so I would imagine is the most. The other issue is even if you include the UK, you've got only 2 yards rated for SSBN/SSN work with a firm overhead as to how many subs they can build at any one time, you aren't going to get huge numbers like the SSN fleet for example and building up other yards is going to take time. As suggested more likely a mix load with large SSKs making up the majority still. The Frigate numbers don't really make sense either, the Baden-Wuttemburg's aren't air defence hulls, and would need major redesign, while the FREMMs do have an Air defence variant. Also where are you going to get 160 Atlanique's from? There werent that many built and the production line is long shut by your pod, you'd have to stick with the OTL mixture of PC3s as well.
Her Majesty's Treasury's preferred next generation Royal Navy Frigate, though they'd like it built for but not with the gun.
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How the treasury hasn't had a "tragic" "accident" involving a couple dozen smart bombs hitting their building I'll never know
To be fair, that's not a unique problem to the UK, though some of us would have to make do with just 105mm shelling instead...
Hey, the maiale human torpedoes weren't much bigger...
anyway, the modern ships don't have ASMs anyway...
Hi again, unfortunately, CalBear made me cease the Luftwaffe 1946 and spinoffs warships, but don't hurry, i've found another source off nice ships (it doesn't belong to me neither): http://www.alternateuniversewarships.com/
(The POD is kinda difficult, but there's an Confederate States of America (both "US" and CS been friendly to each other, i think); Federation of Australia and NZ; Admiral Fisher doesn't exists; the German Fleet isn't scuttled, but instead sold to several nations; theres a different WNT; many united nations; and it's seems WW2 starts with the pro-Axis Argentina invading the Falklands, among a s**ttons of other stuff)
HMSAS Crocodile (TS/ML-1906)
The two King Edward VII class pre-dreadnoughts were transferred to Southern Africa specifically for duties as training ships. Both ships had been partially demilitarised before being released to to the SAN. This had removed both 12" turrets and the after pair of 9.2" guns. The South Africans added a pair of 6" guns to the foredeck and seven 20mm replaced the machine guns fitted for AA work through to the late 1930's. The biggest change for the ships was to be their use as minelayers in time of war. Mine rails that turned the quarterdeck into Paddington Station!
As training ships they were also used to police the coastal waters for pirates and other nasties. The 50ft pinnaces, of which two were carried, were used to send up rivers and into hidden bays and lagoons which gave the marines as much training as the cadets. While the ships were still credited with 18 knots, the SAN limited the engines to no more than 80% of maximum power and most of the time the ships max was 15 knots which reduced to 12 knots the closer the ships came to their refits. The ships with their triple-expansion engines spent all their lives coal fired. This presented no problems as all the ports up and own the coasts of Central and Southern Africa carried stocks of coal. If the war had not started in 1939 both ships were slated for the breakers yard in 1940.
Both ships were renamed on arrival to free up the original names for use by the RN.
HMAS Auckland (ADV-1913 (1932-mod)
The Area Defence Vessel concept of rebuilding old capital ships to carry lots of seaplanes for use as local bases at islands and harbours that would not normally have the base facilities that could be provided by an ADV plus the added advantage of being able to be used as training ships during time of peace. HMAS Auckland and HMAS Gascoyne were the Australis Neptune class ships and had the same turret arrangement as the Australis Indefatigable class ships but being 80 feet shorter they were not able to have the same level of hangarage and therefore less aircraft and or trainees, marines.
The same reduction of arms, armour and speed was carried out in these ships to take them out of the active battleship class and so to not count against the Treaty tonnage total. The work was undertaken from 1932 to 1934 and this made way for the Westralis class that was to replace these ships. Because of the limitations the demilitirisation work left these ships they were not used in first line postings.
CSS Veracruz (BB-1944)
With the fall of France in 1940 the French Navy had piled stores, weapons, men and machinery onto whatever merchant ships were available in harbour and any that could be got to harbour in time. Partly finished ships that could be got to sea went to whichever port was within range of their building condition. Part of these goods arrived at Norfolk, Virginia and were put into warehouses where it could be inventoried for the French Navies future use. Among these goods were five quadruple turrets and guns that had been destined for Alsace class battleships that were under construction. The Confederate Navy purchased those weapons for use on CSN ships. Two thoughts were had as to what useage could be made of the four turrets. Build a slightly larger version of the Alabama class battleships and arm it with sixteen 15". Use four turrets on one ship. The ship would have needed to be well over 900 feet and 65,000 tons and would probably have excedded the Norths Montanas by some considerable margin. The CSN would rather stay with the fast battleship concept and a second design utilising two turrets for eight 15" per ship was considered a better useage of the materiel, the last turret became the Merimack.
The French 15" (14.96") gun proved to be an excellent weapon in service and was the largest weapon taken to sea on Confederate warships. While only having eight guns the increase in size made the Veracruz class as well armed as a lot of other battleships of the time.
For the first time in new built ships the CSN dispensed with aircraft handling facilities and devoted the weight and space to an enhanced AA armament. The single 20mm were also dispensed with and the quad 40mm became the weapon of choice for light AA for a better knock down capability against Japanese aircraft. But the main change was in the extra pair of 5.1" quadruple turrets which increased the dual-purpose weapons from 24 to 32. Also the siting of the 5.1" allowed more guns to be fired per broadside than in the previous Alabama and New Mexico classes, 20 in the Veracruz as opposed to 12 in the others, a marked advantage. The increase of directors to control these weapons also increased from 4 to 6. Speed of the two ships was made to match the Alabama class and gave the CSN very fast Combined Task Forces with their large carriers, battleships, cruisers and escorts all making over 33 knots and could easily cruise at 28 knots. A speed that was absolutely flat out for most other navies groups.
(The POD is kinda difficult, but there's an Confederate States of America (both "US" and CS been friendly to each other, i think); Federation of Australia and NZ; Admiral Fisher doesn't exists; the German Fleet isn't scuttled, but instead sold to several nations; theres a different WNT; many united nations; and it's seems WW2 starts with the pro-Axis Argentina invading the Falklands, among a s**ttons of other stuff)
HMSAS Crocodile (TS/ML-1906)
The two King Edward VII class pre-dreadnoughts were transferred to Southern Africa specifically for duties as training ships. Both ships had been partially demilitarised before being released to to the SAN. This had removed both 12" turrets and the after pair of 9.2" guns. The South Africans added a pair of 6" guns to the foredeck and seven 20mm replaced the machine guns fitted for AA work through to the late 1930's. The biggest change for the ships was to be their use as minelayers in time of war. Mine rails that turned the quarterdeck into Paddington Station!
As training ships they were also used to police the coastal waters for pirates and other nasties. The 50ft pinnaces, of which two were carried, were used to send up rivers and into hidden bays and lagoons which gave the marines as much training as the cadets. While the ships were still credited with 18 knots, the SAN limited the engines to no more than 80% of maximum power and most of the time the ships max was 15 knots which reduced to 12 knots the closer the ships came to their refits. The ships with their triple-expansion engines spent all their lives coal fired. This presented no problems as all the ports up and own the coasts of Central and Southern Africa carried stocks of coal. If the war had not started in 1939 both ships were slated for the breakers yard in 1940.
Both ships were renamed on arrival to free up the original names for use by the RN.
| Displacement | 17,000 tons full load |
| Length | 454 ft |
| Breadth | 78 ft |
| Draught | 26 ft |
| Machinery | 2 shaft triple expansion, 18,000ihp (coal) |
| Speed | 18 knots |
| Range | 8,000 miles at 10 knots |
| Armour | 12" side, 2.5" deck |
| Armament | 2 x 9.2" (2x1) 10 x 6" (10x1) 4 x 4" (4x1) 7 x 20mm (7x1) |
| Aircraft | nil |
| Mines | 300-380 depending on size. |
| Complement | 640 + trainees/marines |
HMAS Auckland (ADV-1913 (1932-mod)
The Area Defence Vessel concept of rebuilding old capital ships to carry lots of seaplanes for use as local bases at islands and harbours that would not normally have the base facilities that could be provided by an ADV plus the added advantage of being able to be used as training ships during time of peace. HMAS Auckland and HMAS Gascoyne were the Australis Neptune class ships and had the same turret arrangement as the Australis Indefatigable class ships but being 80 feet shorter they were not able to have the same level of hangarage and therefore less aircraft and or trainees, marines.
The same reduction of arms, armour and speed was carried out in these ships to take them out of the active battleship class and so to not count against the Treaty tonnage total. The work was undertaken from 1932 to 1934 and this made way for the Westralis class that was to replace these ships. Because of the limitations the demilitirisation work left these ships they were not used in first line postings.
| Displacement | 23,000 tons full load |
| Length | 546 ft |
| Breadth | 86 ft |
| Draught | 29 ft |
| Machinery | 4 shaft steam turbines 18,000shp |
| Speed | 17 knots |
| Range | 4,000 miles at 12 knots |
| Armour | 4.5" side 2.5" deck, 11/7/4" turrets |
| Armament | 6 x 12" (3x2) 2 x 6" (2x1) 4 x 4" (2x2) 8 x 2pd (2x4) 14 x 20mm (2x1 6x2) |
| Aircraft | 5 (mix of Swordfish / Walrus / Skua) |
| Torpedoes | nil |
| Complement | 900 |
CSS Veracruz (BB-1944)
With the fall of France in 1940 the French Navy had piled stores, weapons, men and machinery onto whatever merchant ships were available in harbour and any that could be got to harbour in time. Partly finished ships that could be got to sea went to whichever port was within range of their building condition. Part of these goods arrived at Norfolk, Virginia and were put into warehouses where it could be inventoried for the French Navies future use. Among these goods were five quadruple turrets and guns that had been destined for Alsace class battleships that were under construction. The Confederate Navy purchased those weapons for use on CSN ships. Two thoughts were had as to what useage could be made of the four turrets. Build a slightly larger version of the Alabama class battleships and arm it with sixteen 15". Use four turrets on one ship. The ship would have needed to be well over 900 feet and 65,000 tons and would probably have excedded the Norths Montanas by some considerable margin. The CSN would rather stay with the fast battleship concept and a second design utilising two turrets for eight 15" per ship was considered a better useage of the materiel, the last turret became the Merimack.
The French 15" (14.96") gun proved to be an excellent weapon in service and was the largest weapon taken to sea on Confederate warships. While only having eight guns the increase in size made the Veracruz class as well armed as a lot of other battleships of the time.
For the first time in new built ships the CSN dispensed with aircraft handling facilities and devoted the weight and space to an enhanced AA armament. The single 20mm were also dispensed with and the quad 40mm became the weapon of choice for light AA for a better knock down capability against Japanese aircraft. But the main change was in the extra pair of 5.1" quadruple turrets which increased the dual-purpose weapons from 24 to 32. Also the siting of the 5.1" allowed more guns to be fired per broadside than in the previous Alabama and New Mexico classes, 20 in the Veracruz as opposed to 12 in the others, a marked advantage. The increase of directors to control these weapons also increased from 4 to 6. Speed of the two ships was made to match the Alabama class and gave the CSN very fast Combined Task Forces with their large carriers, battleships, cruisers and escorts all making over 33 knots and could easily cruise at 28 knots. A speed that was absolutely flat out for most other navies groups.
| Displacement | 42,000 tons std 50,750 tons full load |
| Length | 807 ft |
| Breadth | 104 ft |
| Draught | 30.5 ft |
| Machinery | 4 shaft steam turbines 190,000shp |
| Speed | 33 knots |
| Range | 10,000 miles at 15 knots (3,250 nm at 28 knots) |
| Armour | 12" side, 7" deck, 16/11/8" turrets |
| Armament | 8 x 15" (2x4) 32 x 5.1" (8x4) 84 x 40mm (21x4) |
| Aircraft | nil |
| Torpedoes | nil |
| Complement | 1800 |
| Notes | CSS Veracruz CSS Arrizona |
Flagship of the Malayan Straits Settlements Volunteer Naval Reserve His Majesty's Malayan Ship Terror January 1942.
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