PC: Bavaria Swapped for the Austrian Netherlands, 1740-1745

[Kellan Sullivan]

In M.S. Anderson's book on the War of the Austrian Succession (page 84) there is a mention that Maria Theresia attempted in August 1741 to barter with Karl Albrecht (both via his mother-in-law, Dowager Empress Wilhelmine, as well as the papal nuncio) to accept either lands in the Netherlands or Italy (suggested to be a swap of Tuscany for Bavaria) as well as the promise of a royal crown, in lieu of making a play for the imperial purple. Unfortunately, this didn't go ahead and in September the upper Austrian estates at Linz were already swearing loyalty to the elector of Bavaria.

But what if, either in 1741, Karl accepts, or in the alt Treaty of Füssen between Austria and Bavaria, Maximilian III is FORCED to make the trade. There would be no fear of Austria holding two electoral votes since the Bavarian electoral vote would simply be abolished or transferred to the Palatinate branch as it did 30 years later anyway.

Thoughts?

@VVD0D95 @isabella @Carp @Jan Olbracht

 

[Nivek]

holding two electoral votes since the Bavarian electoral vote would simply be abolished or transferred to the Palatinate branch as it did 30 years later anyway.

Thoughts?

As You Say the vote would remain the same, as techically the palatine vote come from the palatine region, not the moutain bavarian one.

The rest,,,can the Wittelbasch withstand the frenchs?

 

[VVD0D95]

In M.S. Anderson's book on the War of the Austrian Succession (page 84) there is a mention that Maria Theresia attempted in August 1741 to barter with Karl Albrecht (both via his mother-in-law, Dowager Empress Wilhelmine, as well as the papal nuncio) to accept either lands in the Netherlands or Italy (suggested to be a swap of Tuscany for Bavaria) as well as the promise of a royal crown, in lieu of making a play for the imperial purple. Unfortunately, this didn't go ahead and in September the upper Austrian estates at Linz were already swearing loyalty to the elector of Bavaria.

But what if, either in 1741, Karl accepts, or in the alt Treaty of Füssen between Austria and Bavaria, Maximilian III is FORCED to make the trade. There would be no fear of Austria holding two electoral votes since the Bavarian electoral vote would simply be abolished or transferred to the Palatinate branch as it did 30 years later anyway.

Thoughts?

@VVD0D95 @isabella @Carp @Jan Olbracht

I think it would cause a bit of a stink in France if louis ends up accepting g this as well, but otherwise maybe it’s better I. The long run for both territories? And it gives Austria the German foothold they so desired

 

[Gwyain]

Its honestly a good trade for both parties. Austria gains contiguous land in Germany which is easier to defend and will help strengthen the Hapsburg position. The Wittlesbach gain contiguous territory to their Palatinate and Rhine-Ruhr territories, and its arguably more valuable than Bavaria. I'm sure it will ruffle some feathers in France, but I'm not sure that matters tremendously. Austria is definitely in a better position versus Prussia if a Seven Year's War analog still occurs, it would be interesting to see what the Wittlesnach would do, they might be more inclined to participate if they were adjacent to Prussia's Rhine province and could potentially gain it.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

rance, but I'm not sure that matters tremendously.

France was pissed when Louis XV "gave" the Austrian Netherlands back OTL because he refused to make peace like a merchant. It ending up in the hands of one of his erstwhile allies (Bavaria) is unlikely to go over as "quietly" as giving it back to a former enemy.

 

[isabella]

France was pissed when Louis XV "gave" the Austrian Netherlands back OTL because he refused to make peace like a merchant. It ending up in the hands of one of his erstwhile allies (Bavaria) is unlikely to go over as "quietly" as giving it back to a former enemy.

I do not know... Bavaria at that point was occupied by Austria, right? Then would be both sides keeping their gains with France forced to compensate his ally for the loss of his homeland...

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

I do not know... Bavaria at that point was occupied by Austria, right? Then would be both sides keeping their gains with France forced to compensate his ally for the loss of his homeland...

And given that France isn't holding anything besides the Austrian Netherlands (AFAIK) at that point, Maria Theresia puts France in an awkward position. Either they return it to their enemy (they've just wasted troops/treasure conquering it from) or they return it to their ally (Bavaria). So...Louis XV's actions of "gifting" it to Max III might be seen as more "magnanimous" than returning it to Austria, no?

 

[isabella]

And given that France isn't holding anything besides the Austrian Netherlands (AFAIK) at that point, Maria Theresia puts France in an awkward position. Either they return it to their enemy (they've just wasted troops/treasure conquering it from) or they return it to their ally (Bavaria). So...Louis XV's actions of "gifting" it to Max III might be seen as more "magnanimous" than returning it to Austria, no?

Yes, is not like France had wasted troops for it, but who they need to repay their ally who has lost everything...
If Austria MUST accept the loss of both Silesia and Austrian Netherlands no way in hell they will renounce to the conquered Bavaria...

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Yes, is not like France had wasted troops for it, but who they need to repay their ally who has lost everything...
If Austria MUST accept the loss of both Silesia and Austrian Netherlands no way in hell they will renounce to the conquered Bavaria...

Well, she offered the Austrian Netherlands, so it could be a way of making it more of a "face saving" gesture (in 1745), that while she weeps, she takes. Maybe with the intention of causing a rift in Franco-Bavarian relations. After all, once she makes the trade, it's likely she'll leave Munich and Paris to "sort out the details", rather than supervise it too closely.

 

[isabella]

Well, she offered the Austrian Netherlands, so it could be a way of making it more of a "face saving" gesture (in 1745), that while she weeps, she takes. Maybe with the intention of causing a rift in Franco-Bavarian relations. After all, once she makes the trade, it's likely she'll leave Munich and Paris to "sort out the details", rather than supervise it too closely.

Possibly, but I believe who France will likely end again with the upper hand as would be enough having Max’s eldest sister Maria Antonia marrying the widowed Dauphin instead of their OTL Saxon matches for recovering Netherlands once Max died, if he is childless as OTL

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Possibly, but I believe who France will likely end again with the upper hand as would be enough having Max’s eldest sister Maria Antonia marrying the widowed Dauphin instead of their OTL Saxon matches for recovering Netherlands once Max died, if he is childless as OTL

That's assuming that Max is still childless here. I can't find a reason and (as I said to @VVD0D95 on another Max III related question), the most recent bio on Max is from 1989 (and that only goes up to the end of the Seven Years War). There's an overview of his reign from a 2002 omnibus of rulers of Bavaria, but (without reading it) I suspect that Max III gets a paragraph between much longer entries on Karl Albrecht and Karl Theodor.
Most of what is in Max's wikis I could imagine coming from a line or two in sources on other figures of the day (Maria Theresia, Friedrich the Great, Louis XV, George II, etc) or events of his reign (Austrian Succession War, 7YW, Diplomatic Revolution), rather than anything devoted exclusively to him.

 

[isabella]

That's assuming that Max is still childless here. I can't find a reason and (as I said to @VVD0D95 on another Max III related question), the most recent bio on Max is from 1989 (and that only goes up to the end of the Seven Years War). There's an overview of his reign from a 2002 omnibus of rulers of Bavaria, but (without reading it) I suspect that Max III gets a paragraph between much longer entries on Karl Albrecht and Karl Theodor.
Most of what is in Max's wikis I could imagine coming from a line or two in sources on other figures of the day (Maria Theresia, Friedrich the Great, Louis XV, George II, etc) or events of his reign (Austrian Succession War, 7YW, Diplomatic Revolution), rather than anything devoted exclusively to him.

Well if Max married as OTL (and he will do it, unless Louis XV decided to marry him to one of his daughters) is likely they will stay childless... As he was married 30 years and had no know bastards I think likely who he was sterile so he will stay childless with any wife...

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

unless Louis XV decided to marry him to one of his daughters

This sounds more plausible than a Saxon match, no? After all, a Saxon match wouldn't be much use in "Belgium", unless Maria Josepha of Saxony were to still become dauphine. So, a match between Max and Henriette/Adélaïde de France perhaps? Louis' already wasted his eldest daughter on a younger son, I don't see him allowing Henriette de France to marry less than a king.

 

[kasumigenx]

Wittelsbach Belgium seems interesting...

 

[isabella]

This sounds more plausible than a Saxon match, no? After all, a Saxon match wouldn't be much use in "Belgium", unless Maria Josepha of Saxony were to still become dauphine. So, a match between Max and Henriette/Adélaïde de France perhaps? Louis' already wasted his eldest daughter on a younger son, I don't see him allowing Henriette de France to marry less than a king.

Well Philip now is Duke of Parma so he is a ruler in his own right and either Henriette or Adelaide will be a good match for Max here...

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Well Philip now is Duke of Parma so he is a ruler in his own right and either Henriette or Adelaide will be a good match for Max here...

Would Felipe get Parma here? Or might Maria Theresia be "happier" with her husband getting Bavaria in exchange for Tuscany?

 

[The Professor]

Given he remains childless who would be Maximillian's heir(s) for his territories?

 

[Comte de Dordogne]

Why can't France and the Wittelsbachs share the Austrian Netherlands? France conquered the region and Maria Theresa promised the Wittelsbachs the region, so they are both legitimate and the way to satisfy everyone would be partition: the Wittelsbachs getting Greater Luxembourg and France the rest.

 

[isabella]

Given he remains childless who would be Maximillian's heir(s) for his territories?

His eldest sister Maria Antonia, ATL Dauphine of France as second wife of Louis XV’s son

 

[isabella]

Why can't France and the Wittelsbachs share the Austrian Netherlands? France conquered the region and Maria Theresa promised the Wittelsbachs the region, so they are both legitimate and the way to satisfy everyone would be partition: the Wittelsbachs getting Greater Luxembourg and France the rest.

France do not need to take personal possession of Austrian Netherlands if they can place a trusted ally and tie him more with a double wedding