A Blunted Sickle - Thread II

Coulsdon Eagle

Monthly Donor
Can you double check, because I see Leffe triple at 8.5% and Affligen triple at 9% when googling to doublecheck my memory.

edit: I'd really like to see a classical triple at 13.9%. Maybe it was a special brew (happened to me once. I was used to Fraoch beer at 5% and once, I drunk a full 1l bottle (it was very hot and I was thirsty) of special Fraoch anniversary brew without realising it was 12 %. I really felt the difference in kick then)?

It was about 2003! Pretty sure it was Leffe and they won't have changed the strength in the meantime, so either I've mistaken the potency or the brand.

My favourite: Witbier - and not the Hoegarden slop served up over here (with a slice of lemon!)
Avoid: Pineapple beer - long story but in the end the fragrance was appalling & the taste worse.:'(
 
Note, 1947 Palestine had about 1.2 Million Arabs and 600,000 Jews. What the heck does Britain do if the Soviets give exit visas to 2 million Jews? You could end up with Cyprus as being in the top 5 countries in the world by population of Jews simply from those waiting to get in.

This question has much impact on my life. :) My mom was born in Palestine in 1939, so just pre-POD. Her father had fled the Soviet Union but her uncle had stayed behind. Said uncle went on to become a pretty prominent gamma ray astrophysicist (and for a time was son-in-law to Vitaly Ginsburg).

Does uncle come to Israel earlier? Does GINSBURG?
 

SwampTiger

Banned
My heartfelt condolences on your and your family's loss.

Will Poland receive East Prussia after the war as compensation for the loss of Eastern Poland? How will Stalin and the Soviets treat their minorities ITTL?
 
While II and III Corps are going hell-for-leather towards Poland, I Corps of 1st Army have started work on the reduction of Berlin. Resistance here is much stiffer than they have become accustomed to in the past few weeks, although the performance of the defending units is distinctly patchy. In more than one location only liberal use of direct fire support has allowed the advance to continue at all, while in others they are disgusted to find they are fighting teenage Hitler Youth members who usually crack and run under pressure. Progress is best in the south, where the Guards Brigade are able to force the Teltowkanal in three places and capture Tempelhof airport – putting them just four miles from the Reichstag.

It looks like Goering's first action after the Germans run out of morphine is going to be offering his surrender.

What's interesting is that if the Entente puts the information they have together a certain way, fat Hermann might be mistaken for almost an innocent patsy - a former subordinate and eventual replacement of the respected Red Baron who was reduced to a convenient figurehead by virtue of his addiction. He hasn't presided over war crimes, at least not to anywhere near OTL. There's no clean wechrmacht myth here, but there's still the romanticized view of the WWI pilots, one which might extend to this war's pilots due to limited mass bombings.

The French advance meanwhile has become for them a purely administrative movement – on the rare occasions that the Germans do engage them units typically don't even slow down, returning fire with vehicle mounted weapons if available and otherwise ignoring the enemy.
Despite starting to suffer from some of the petrol shortages which have been affecting the British so badly (and which have led to 6th Army briefly having to halt in place), the French are able to make some spectacular advances. Indeed, the 1e RSM win the race to be the first to cross the German border in the other direction when they reach the Bavarian town of Füssen and continue on into Austria. Progress elsewhere is also excellent - 7th Army reach the line Bamberg-Nuremberg, while 4th Army reaches Augsburg.

I wonder what the French stereotype will be in this timeline. Given Joan of Arc, Napoleon's campaigns, the French taking taxis to the front lines during World War I and now carrying out drive-by counterinvasions of Germany, it seems to me that they will be seen as bombastic violent lunatics who disregard the odds and have a fondness for revenge.

Might be worth going back and checking who is in charge of the British unit closest to the Reichstag...
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Lots of retired colonels in Tunbridge Wells with indigestion after that!

If I recall the rather convoluted nazi racial hierarchy correctly, they might at least decide that they're happy he's a real Aryan.
 
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SwampTiger

Banned
I wonder what the French stereotype will be in this timeline. Given Joan of Arc, Napoleon's campaigns, the French taking taxis to the front lines during World War I and now carrying out drive-by counterinvasions of Germany, it seems to me that they will be seen as bombastic violent lunatics who disregard the odds and have a fondness for revenge.
/QUOTE]

Why the attack on the French? They have held the front, repulsed the Germans, absorbed heavy losses and supported the left flank advances by the British. Now, they have joined in the destruction of the German main force and advanced deeply into Germany. How is this "bombastic, violent lunatics", or "disregard the odds". The Allies enmasse will desire revenge and a serious demilitarization of German culture and industry.

I am looking forward to the future boundaries ITTL. The Operation Paperclip analogues of TTL will be interesting.
 
A bit surprised by that reaction. That was certainly not meant as an attack, but rather a potential idea on what stereotypes might develop in this timeline, based in part by the amusing image of the French army carrying out drive-by shootings of the remnants of the Germans.
 

SwampTiger

Banned
The French are fighting the war for which they planned. The brave French soldiers held off the massive, unexpected German advance and acted as the anvil for the major Allied offensive. I doubt they would receive anything like the disparaging stereotype of OTL. You basically painted the French with the brush of OTL French failures. Not fair or reasonable. Sorry if you did not appreciate the defense of France.

I would be interested in new stereotypes for all participants. Please let us return to the thread.
 
I do wonder what will be the german stereotype here.

Aggressive but delusional, like the bloke in the pub who is always talking a big game and looking for a fight, but is knocked out whenever he tries to pull that shit on the big boys (Britain and France)
 
It looks like Goering's first action after the Germans run out of morphine is going to be offering his surrender.
At the rate things are going now, it wouldn’t surprise me if there isn’t a formal surrender in the name of the German government, but rather only local surrenders by subordinate commands and units. I can very much see the remaining officials of the central government and the general staff abandoning their posts as they look for their individual survival. With Goering so drugged out, he may not even realize the Entente are in Berlin until they kick down his own door.
 
As the British cross the border into Poland, there could be a rush by German units to surrender to them, hoping that doing so would protect them from vengeful Poles.
 
Just finished a mammoth lockdown read-through. Many congratulations, this is extraordinary, detailed, realistic and very believable.

The post-war world will be fascinating, especially without any major role for the US and USSR in the design of any new organisations. Security will be a key issue for the UK and France of course, they will want to ensure no third German war, and they will see Japan, Italy and the USSR as threats. Will they try to revise/replace the League of Nations (currently moribund, I think its last act would have been to expel the USSR after it invaded Finland). Will they create something like OTL Western Europe Union (defence alliance), but including Poland and other central European countries?

What would the plans be on economic cooperation without significant US involvement? Will Keynes and Jean Monnet have leading roles? There’s been a few mentions of how much the economies of France and the UK have become coordinated. We could see a western European economic arrangement based on planning, especially if Monnet is involved. In OTL I believe Monnet was chairing the commission on UK-France economic cooperation until 1940, so it’s quite likely he has continued in that role in this timeline. I imagine he’s already written a few papers on a post-war world.

And what will this new world say and do about human rights? The Atlantic Declaration of principles has still taken place, but will there be any Declaration of Human Rights? Will the UK and France be wary because of the impact on their empires? (In 1919 the US and theBritish Empire (especially Australia) opposed a declaration of racial equality for the League of Nations.) Will there be war crimes trials? In OTL the US pushed them, Churchill seemed reluctant, talking about summary executions.

Amazing achievement with this timeline and look forward to the next stage.
 
Man, I just read through a humongous TL, and what do you know? THIS IS AWESOME!

Really believable and all that jazz!

Though there is one stereotype I will miss as a half-Nepali about WW2 without the Pacific War as OTL; the Gurkha Myth.

But anyways, this TL is awesome and Good Job !
 
If I recall the rather convoluted nazi racial hierarchy correctly, they might at least decide that they're happy he's a real Aryan.

You're not wrong. I've actually researched the weirder corners of Nazi racial theory in an effort to understand how the SS justified to themselves having formations like the 450th Turkestanisches Battalion. There were at least two competing tendencies in that theory, one of which was the obvious Germano/Nordic vs. everybody else racialism, and the other being predicated on a distinction between "master" and "slave" races that was not so unipolar, and certainly more convenient when, e.g. dealing with the Japanese. Or recruiting Azeri Turkish POWs to fight the Soviets - you could qualify as "master race" if the Nazis judged your ancestors to be a sufficiently nasty and warlike tribe.

So yes, high-caste "Aryan" North Indians like this officer (and the Nazi-collaborating Indian nationalist Subhas Chandra Bose) did qualify as "master race".

And here's some dark irony for you: running full-tilt away from every claim in Nazi racial mythology actually turned out to be a mistake. When I was a child and teenager, part of the postwar reaction against it was to bury the older term "Aryan" for Proto-Indo-Europeans and depict them as small, dark people looking nothing like modern Europeans and certainly nothing like a Waffen-SS recruiting poster, oh no perish that thought.

For decades, Colin Renfrew's notion that Indo-European languages were brought into Europe by farmers gradually and almost peacefully displacing late-Neolithic hunter-gatherers was quite the respectable theory. When Marja Gimbutas tried to revive the "Kurgan hypothesis" - PIEs as violent steppe nomads sweeping west from the Pontic steppes to overrun Europe in less than a thousand years from first contact - she was harking back to the consensus way the archaeological evidence had been interpreted in the 1920s. After WWII nobody wanted to remember this, or that Herodotus had described the Pontic Greeks as blond and blue-eyed. And Gimbutas was embarrassing, anyway, because her later books flirted with feminist pagan mysticism.

Then we figured out how to sequence DNA from from human fossils, and oops. There's a signature pattern in certain haplotypes on sex-linked chromosomes that you can only get when a population C is the result of population A moving in on population B, killing all its men, and raping all its women. Once you have the fossils as a baseline, you can actually track the shock-front of the PIE invasion by the traces it left in the allele distribution of modern European populations. Furthermore we now know what the PIEs looked like to a fairly high degree of confidence; the genes for melanization and eye and hair color are pretty easy to pick out.

Gimbutas - and the Nazis - turned out to have been right after all; neolithic Europe really was put to the sword (er, more accurately, the axe) by ravening Aryan blond beasts. No actual credit to the Nazi theorists here because they didn't originate or really develop the Aryan-invasion hypothesis themselves, they just co-opted it. Still, it's an object lesson in the perils of disbelieving fact claims simply because they're advanced by evil people, and in how political revulsion can distort science.
 
That's fascinating. Not having done any research on this myself, I had assumed that the colourations present in Europe predate the initial Indo-Europeans, but that rather they brought in what are traditionally considered European features, owing to the similarites in facial structure between many people in India and Europe.

In my opinion, disregarding and obfuscating any proven facts because some 'bad people' were really fond of them is a touch silly. Truth is truth, science is science. The conclusions one might draw from any set of facts might be uncouth on occasion, but it's irrelevant to whether those facts should be presented or not.
 
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That's fascinating. Not having done any research on this myself, I had assumed that the colourations present in Europe predate the initial Indo-Europeans, but that rather they brought in what are traditionally considered European features, owing to the similarites in facial structure between many people in India and Europe.

If you want to know what Europe's inhabitants looked like before the PIE invasion, go to hill villages in Sardinia and edit in a bit darker and shorter. The hill Sardinians have a haplotype distribution that looks a lot like what we get from fossils of late-Neolithic, pre-PIE farmers in Europe - Colin Renfrew's incomer population which had in its time previously displaced the first neolithic hunter-gatherers to migrate north out of Africa, in fact. But Renfrew got the timing wrong by 4 to 8 Ky, and he thought they spoke PIE rather than something distantly related to Basque.

(No, not the Basque country itself; they kept a pre-PIE language but genetically have much more PIE admixture. )

European "white" coloration actually predates the PIEs and can be tracked to an ancestral population of theirs that paleogeneticists call Ancient North Eurasians, native to the area around and east of the Ural Mountains. You're right enough about shared facial features between Europe and North India, but at this point there has been 6000 years of admixture with Dravidian-speaking South Indians.

I've seen an attempt to reconstruct a face and head based on the skeletons of the Yamnaya/Pit-Grave culture, which we can now identify pretty certainly with the first PIE speakers. It looks Roman, or like Herodotus's Pontic Greeks (and not quite like modern Mediterraneans, who got a fair amount of admixture from Arabs and North Africa during the peak centuries of the Mohammedan expansion). But the features are a bit heavier, a bit more brutal - damned if it didn't look like someone who'd as soon bash your skull in as look at you. The PIEs were not nice people.
 
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I Always Like a Rehabilitation of Gimbutas, but I tend to think the PIE Migrations were a more mixed picture than that. I like David Anthony's take on the Matter.

Ah, yes, "The Horse. The Wheel, and Language". Very very good book indeed - great place to learn about the archaeological and linguistic evidence. All his stuff about the early history of the PIEs, horse domestication and so forth, is unsurpassed.

However, Anthony did not have access to the new wave of paleogenetic evidence when he wrote his book. It shreds the final part of his narrative, about peaceful expansion up the Danube valley, quite mercilessly. The best single source on this is a blog called "West Hunter" by Greg Cochran, a physicist turned paleogeneticist and coauthor of "The Ten-Thousand-Year-Explosion", which I also recommend.

Cochran likes to say that from the paleogenetic evidence Robert E. Howard had a better grasp on what late-Neolititic/early-Bronze-Age Europe was like than modern historians. Gimbutas was right and Anthony was fooling himself; the PIEs invaded Europe swiftly and brutally. North of the Alps they pretty much wiped out the indigenes entirely; south of the Alps they just exterminated the males. It only took about 500 years, which is lightning-fast given the travel speed of the time.

Look for his series of posts titled "Who we are". He's hilarious to read, in part because he's not afraid to call bullshit on a lot of eminent people who deserve it for their wishful thinking.
 
Ah, yes, "The Horse. The Wheel, and Language". Very very good book indeed - great place to learn about the archaeological and linguistic evidence. All his stuff about the early history of the PIEs, horse domestication and so forth, is unsurpassed.

However, Anthony did not have access to the new wave of paleogenetic evidence when he wrote his book. It shreds the final part of his narrative, about peaceful expansion up the Danube valley, quite mercilessly. The best single source on this is a blog called "West Hunter" by Greg Cochran, a physicist turned paleogeneticist and coauthor of "The Ten-Thousand-Year-Explosion", which I also recommend.

Cochran likes to say that from the paleogenetic evidence Robert E. Howard had a better grasp on what late-Neolititic/early-Bronze-Age Europe was like than modern historians. Gimbutas was right and Anthony was fooling himself; the PIEs invaded Europe swiftly and brutally. North of the Alps they pretty much wiped out the indigenes entirely; south of the Alps they just exterminated the males. It only took about 500 years, which is lightning-fast given the travel speed of the time.

Look for his series of posts titled "Who we are". He's hilarious to read, in part because he's not afraid to call bullshit on a lot of eminent people who deserve it for their wishful thinking.
Thanks for the recommendation, will definitely check it!
(And then I should stop derailing this excellent thread.)
 
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