A Blunted Sickle - Thread II

(And then I should stop derailing this excellent thread.)

One of the things that makes this thread excellent is that it's full of people who will cheerfully use learning about anything - even a speculative alternate history - to learn about everything. If I thought our host minded the occasional brief excursion I wouldn't have participated in this one.
 
I have recently discovered a couple of YouTube channels that I think will be of interest to people on this thread.

Dark Docs is a channel of short documentaries that focuses on historical oddities, unexplained incidents, and formerly-classified footage. The World War 2 Short Documentaries playlist is especially notable.

Mark Felton Productions is more exclusively WWII-focused but, again, focuses on historical oddities and facts that have gotten left out of most histories because they're complicated or embarrassing.
 
One of the things that makes this thread excellent is that it's full of people who will cheerfully use learning about anything - even a speculative alternate history - to learn about everything. If I thought our host minded the occasional brief excursion I wouldn't have participated in this one.
As a by-stander to this particular excursion, I was more than happy to read about a topic I'm unfamiliar with.
 
As a by-stander to this particular excursion, I was more than happy to read about a topic I'm unfamiliar with.

I'll just leave this here: Welteislehre. I'll bet you're not familiar with that.

The literal translation of this portmanteau word in English is "World Ice Theory". but the few people who have written about it in English (I learned of it a very long time ago from a book on the history of astronomy) tend to use the German word.

The Nazis had a lot of nutty theories. This one was (a) possibly the nuttiest, and (b) unlike many of their others, quite harmless. It would already have been in play ITTL, as it was established Nazi doctrine by the time of the 1938 Anschluss. It was revealed to an Austrian engineer named Hans Hörbiger in a dream in 1894; Hitler and Himmler were enthusiasts. Chase the link for as good a summary as I could write.
 
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Bring together two recent little threads of mine:
Hitler's Asians - The Turkestan Legion
This is Mark Felton's documentary on the topic. Not strictly relevant to Blunted Sickle as it wasn't founded until Operation Barbarossa had been underway enough to collect a large number of Azeri and Turkmen POWs, but interesting nevertheless.
 
Bring together two recent little threads of mine:
Hitler's Asians - The Turkestan Legion
This is Mark Felton's documentary on the topic. Not strictly relevant to Blunted Sickle as it wasn't founded until Operation Barbarossa had been underway enough to collect a large number of Azeri and Turkmen POWs, but interesting nevertheless.

AFAIK Germans picked up a lot of people who had a bone to pick with the Soviets but did not ping the Nazi "Slavic subhuman" radar, like Crimean Tatars.
 
AFAIK Germans picked up a lot of people who had a bone to pick with the Soviets but did not ping the Nazi "Slavic subhuman" radar, like Crimean Tatars.

That they did. The Crimean Tatars, being mainly descended from Cuman tribes, had a sufficiently warlike past to be considered "master race" material, along with Azeri Turks and Japanese and Aryan North Indians.

The most extreme and odd case of this kind of co-option was undoubtedly the Free Arabian Legion, which recruited North African Muslims and Blacks, some of whom had been unwilling conscripts in colonial armies but others of whom simply volunteered. While the FAL was only formed after the POD, in 1942, at peak strength it mustered 6,500 men. Given the time and place, its hatreds were more likely directed against the British and French rather than the Soviets.

Unlike the George Washington Legion, British Free Corps, the Estonian Legion, and the three Muslim SS divisions recruited in the Balkans, the FAL was not incorporated into the Waffen-SS. One can readily imagine that the SS did not greet the thought of putting its uniforms on "Negros" (that being the prevalent term at the time) with glad cries of glee; nevertheless Black FAL troops were certainly elevated out of the status of untermenschen in Nazi propaganda, providing the best possible evidence that Nazi racial theory could be...flexible.

For its part the FAL served the Nazis willingly enough. They were mainly used as counter-partisan troops in Yugoslavia and Greece. Like their Goumier counterparts on the Allied side they were brutally effective in this role and more than a bit atrocity-prone. The last FAL formations surrendered in Austria in 1945.
 
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That they did. The Crimean Tatars, being mainly descended from Cuman tribes, had a sufficiently warlike past to be considered "master race" material, along with Azeri Turks and Japanese and Aryan North Indians.

The most extreme and odd case of this kind of co-option was undoubtedly the Free Arabian Legion, which recruited North African Muslims and Blacks, some of whom had been unwilling conscripts in colonial armies but others of whom simply volunteered. While the FAL was only formed after the POD, in 1942, at peak strength it mustered 6,500 men. Given the time and place, its hatreds were more likely directed against the British and French rather than the Soviets.

Unlike the George Washington Legion, British Free Corps, the Estonian Legion, and the three Muslim SS divisions recruited in the Balkans, the FAL was not incorporated into the Waffen-SS. One can readily imagine that the SS did not greet the thought of putting its uniforms on "Negros" (that being the prevalent term at the time) with glad cries of glee; nevertheless Black FAL troops were certainly elevated out of the status of untermenschen in Nazi propaganda, providing the best possible evidence that Nazi racial theory could be...flexible.

For its part the FAL served the Nazis willingly enough. They were mainly used as counter-partisan troops in Yugoslavia and Greece. Like their Goumier counterparts on the Allied side they were brutally effective in this role and more than a bit atrocity-prone. The last FAL formations surrendered in Austria in 1945,
Trouble for those recruits I believe from the Nazi viewpoint would have been win the war, change the standards.
 
Well, the Cheka/NKVD/KGB did have doctors report the 9mm (or similar) 'retirement plan' as either lead poisoning or natural causes. Seeing as a projectile entering sensitive cranial matter at a high velocity would, quite naturally, result in the demise of individual who was in possession of said sensitive cranial matter.
 
Well, the Cheka/NKVD/KGB did have doctors report the 9mm (or similar) 'retirement plan' as either lead poisoning or natural causes. Seeing as a projectile entering sensitive cranial matter at a high velocity would, quite naturally, result in the demise of individual who was in possession of said sensitive cranial matter.

"Sudden onset lead-induced brain damage"
 
Who was it who used empty bullet casings to the neck instead? One of the Communist countries. The Chinese billed your family for the bullet...
 
Well, I just reread the entire two threads, and I really must applaud the amount of work that went into writing it, not to mention the huge amount of information provided by the readers as well. Only by reading this TL, one does manage to realize just how much of a disaster for the entire world was the Fall of France. It is good to see that Entante units are racing further East each day, with German resistance generally weak or in many cases nonexistant, and that majority of Europe is likely going to be spared the enourmous death and destruction of OTL.

Though, I do have some questions/thoughts, which I did attempt to find answers for in the thread(s), but I was unable to, so I will have to aske them here in my usual incoherent style.

1. RN has sent all 5 of their modern CVs to Singapore, Ark Royal and 3+1 Amd. CVs (3x Illustrious + Indomitable) and they are currently building 2 more, Audacious and Indefetigable which are called Audacious class. Does his mean that the class known as the Implacable OTL (two hangars 14ft high) is simply known as the Audacious ITTL, or are we talking about a completely different class of ships? I must say I have doubts that they would have ended up with something completely the same as the OTL Audacious, since design of that class has been influenced quite a bit by both building and operating CVs during the OTL. Another thing that should be considered is that both Implacables have been laid down before the POD (March and November '39) and I do not see how could their design be impacted in any great way by ITTL RN actions, since it seems that all the newest naval aircraft (Miles 2-seat Fighter and Fairey Barracuda) would have fit quite comfortably even in 14ft height hangars, not to mention that we are very unlikely to see RN/FAA operating Corsairs ITTL.

2. Italy has been spreading (or at least attempting to spread) its influence on various smaller nations in the Balkans, but for how much longer will they be able to do so, especially once Germany is completely overrun, and Entante drives to the Soviet border? France (and to a lesser extent UK) did wield quite a bit of influence in the region in the interwar period, and it is rather likely they will do so again postwar. Romania is currently dependant on Italy to keep out Soviets, and Yugoslavia is only in to provide rail access for Italy. Once Entante is able to turn their attention elsewhere, Italy would be out, especially considering that these states, while weaker then Italy, are still simply too big for Italy to simply order around, and once an alternative is availlable, Italy is out of luck. Yugoslavia would be the first to break off I think, Belgrade knows that they have designs on Dalmatia, and Yugoslavia is much stronger now then it was when Romania begged for Italian aid, and Italians using JDŽ was considered a lesser evil then having SSSR as the next door neighboor. With Entante having some breathing room, we could see something like Little Entante come about again, though with some more members, and aimed not at Hungary, Bulgaria, Germany or whoever was the biggest threat during '20ies/'30ies, but against SSSR. Some sort of a defense bloc, perhaps with some economic ties appearing later on? As for members, I was thinking about Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Yugoslavia, Romania, Greece and Bulgaria, all bundled together, due to Entante pressure and shared fear of both Italian influence and Soviet threat? There are quite a few disputes and bad blood between various nations, but even so, there is a possibility, if only slight, of such an arrangement coming about.

3. Calibers and weapons of the future. British (and their lot) end up with something along the lines of EM-2 and some sort of short 6.5mm Swedish derivative, the French have their 7.5mm, and OP has mentioned that we could/will see "short/kurz" variant appearing later on, though we do not have any details of what weapon they might end up using. French are currently using MAS40(which is similar to MAS44 ITTL I believe), and I think we could see ITTL these same MAS rifles undergo some modifications to be able to fire 7.5mm short, becoming visually similar to OTL SKS or VZ.52s in a way, only with 20-30rnd detachable magazines?

However, the question remains, what developments we could see in other major nations?
USA is likely to remain with M1 Garand for some time to come, perhaps updated to take magazines in the future, like what BM-59 did IOTL. I do not see them needing anything more then that, unless they end up in a war, and it would be more then adequate for their needs, especially if their "splendid isolation" continues. USSR has been replacing its MN-91/30 rifles with the SVT-40 augemented by PPD and perhaps PPSH SMGs, though we are likely to see 7.62x39 ITTL as well, but not AK-47, or at least not the same AK we are familar with.
Italy is busy replacing its 6.5mm rifles with 7.35mm variant, but they are going to go semi-auto as well, and they already have Armaguerra M39 in place, although it could end up wit a detachable magazine, as 6rnds is going to be seen as inadequate compared to foreign weapons.
Japan is currently replacing 6.5mm and standardizing on 7.7mm, though with 2 separate variants for IJA and IJN, but I do not know if they had a domestic semi-auto rifle programme? I do not know just how big of a priority would that be for them, since Chinese really do not have anything better then they use, and Japan did value morale and combat spirit of its soldiers more then machines.

Aside from the big ones, I was thinking about some smaller nations, and what options may be open to them. For example, the new "Little Entante" as I envisioned above. They use a rather dizzying variety of weapons and calibers, but they might standardize on 7.92x57 and Mauser rifles in short term. Czechoslovakia was a major arms producer interwar, and Yugoslavia was also busy building up its own domestic arms industry, and between them they could likely be more then able to provide large enough quantity. As for the future, unless they adopt foreign cartridge, they could end up with 7.92 "Kurz" of their own, from 7.92x33 to 7.92x41 and everything else in between, fired out of something like Vz.52 of OTL?

4. Military vehicles. The moment the Entante gets its hands on atomic weapons and means to deliver them in sufficient quantity, it is going to take an axe to its conventional military forces. Their roles are going to be confined to colonial policing and serving as a tripwire in Europe, so how is that going to effect the design of military vehicles, such as MBTs and APCs? Not to mention that budgets for conventional forces are likely to be smaller, simply because the primary means of defense for the Entante is going to be its nuclear arsenal, so we could see noticeably smaller numbers produced then IOTL. For Tanks, while we could see MBTs as IOTL, would continual need for colonial duties/intervention result in light tanks continuing in development, perhaps with amphibious or (unlikely) airborne capabilities? Though, French did love their Armoured Cars, and there is quite a good possibility that instead of light tanks, Armoured Cars are used for colonial duties, and elsewhere. As for APCs, Entante is going to realize just how valuable they are, though the price might be somewhat problematic, once budgets for conventional ground forces continue to decline. Maybe, the tracked APCs are less common ITTL, generally only used alongside tanks, while majority of troops are using wheeled APCs, as they are going to be much cheaper to produce and easier to maintain, not to mention the possibility of using at least some parts of already availlable motor vehicles, thus further reducing the costs. Things like Alvis Saracen, or Panhard M3 which had a nice number of variants, and was almost identical to an Armoured Car which carried a 105mm gun at one point or another. Then again, pdf27 did say he is not writing an utopia here, so Entante might as well standardize on Humber Pig for all we know... ;)

5. Aircraft. Pdf did say he has no problems slaughtering holy cows, so it will be extremely interesting to see what he has in store there. We have seen mentions that UK/FR are heading for ever greater cooperation, and unless I misremember Breguets LRMP aircraft was used by RAF, and a competitor to Blackburns Buccaneer was used on both RN and MN CVs? Their main delivery system is the Bomber, so we could see something like Avro Vulcans or TSR-2s bearing the French roundel? Fighter wise, I do hope that we see English Electric Lightning in service, but I really would not say no to Mirage IIIs in RAF colours. I mean, if any military aircraft is going to be used it is the interceptor, and once nuke carrying bombers come into play, having a supersonic jet is going to be seen as absolutely critical, and that is quite an opportunity to make some money.

Great work pdf27, keep it up.
 
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