Stupid Luck and Happenstance, Thread II

Monitor

Donor
Starting in the 20's Berlin was pretty much the gay capital of the world, with the gays and the lesbians having their own magazine (each), openly gay, lesbians and drag-queen bars, etc.
597pz0h5q1a01.jpg

Of course, that was until the NSDAP took power. Since that didn't happen, it's possible that ITTL it continued the trend.
Fun fact, which I just remembered: technically, some of the parties on the left actually managed to legalize homosexuality, but soon after the Nazis went to power... (they also, I believe, managed to make abortions legal, or at least not as illegal. Which the Nazis changed back and made worse.
 

Monitor

Donor
Remember, that stuff happened with Germany losing WW1.

TTL they didn't lose, the political system didn't have the same shock.
The thing is, a lot of that shock of actually loosing was what helped the far right. The left came out really strong near the end of the war, and it was relatively clear that changes would need to be happening. I am not quite sure how badly Germany won this WWI, but almost certainly the answer is bad enough for that to also happen here. I think the SPD was the main driving force behind the civil rights movement of the Deutsches Reich, second of that name. Better known by the Nazi term Weimarer Republik. Which is why I hate that this is the general name for that Republic. Call it with the modification we often give the first Deutsches Reich: there we add empire, for the Republik we should simply call it Deutsche Republik. There is no state which assumes that name for itself, to my knowledge, Bundesrepublik Deutschland, Deutsche Demokratische Republik (DDR/GDR), and of course the Nationalversammlung (Frankfurt, 1848). Even in English it would work...

EDIT: In German instead of empire generally Kaiserreich is used...
 
The thing is, a lot of that shock of actually loosing was what helped the far right. The left came out really strong near the end of the war, and it was relatively clear that changes would need to be happening. I am not quite sure how badly Germany won this WWI, but almost certainly the answer is bad enough for that to also happen here.

ITTL, a white peace was declared in December 1917 ending the First World War. So the argument could be made that no one won, just lost to different degrees.

What followed was a period of instability that culminated with a revolution in 1921. As far as Civil/Gay Rights are concerned. Germany had a succession of Governments in the second half of the 1920's and much of the 30's that had the Center Right, National Liberals in the majority. So, the issue was on the back burner up until a scandal erupted involving Ernst Rhom that forced the NLP from power. A coalition led by the Social Democratic Party was somewhat allergic to the issue because of how they had come to power. Then everything got overtaken by events. The Reichstag getting blown up, the Second World War, and everything else.
 

Monitor

Donor
ITTL, a white peace was declared in December 1917 ending the First World War. So the argument could be made that no one won, just lost to different degrees.

What followed was a period of instability that culminated with a revolution in 1921. As far as Civil/Gay Rights are concerned. Germany had a succession of Governments in the second half of the 1920's and much of the 30's that had the Center Right, National Liberals in the majority. So, the issue was on the back burner up until a scandal erupted involving Ernst Rhom that forced the NLP from power. A coalition led by the Social Democratic Party was somewhat allergic to the issue because of how they had come to power. Then everything got overtaken by events. The Reichstag getting blown up, the Second World War, and everything else.
Ah, ok. So sadly this issue is not dealt with. So I guess now is the perfect time for it... Go Kat and ki... I mean of course politely Tell them that homosexuality shall not be illegal :) and abortion be at least not penalized... (no idea what the law would be...)
 

ferdi254

Banned
That would be much earlier compared to OTL and the OTL student movement that started the whole discussion has not yet materialized only in the sad movement run by vonPapen which may have disgraced any such movements.

And with the Kaiserreich not ending the churches might well have staid in more power compared to OTL. The Adenauer time backlash might not have happened so less of that conservative period on one side on the other no gullibility of the churches concerning antisemitism.

We are still talking the RCC and the protestantic churches without Hitler and so no need to go away from their antisemitic stance. And a RCC without the second vaticanic council and homosexuality? Abortion? And the orthodox churches until today have an extremely clear stance on both topics.

Remember at that time OTL a man had full authority over the family up to and including beating the children and raping the wife, fully endorsed by most parts of the clergy.

Unless you really start something like 68 moving into Brandt. Hard to see the coalition needed for this forming.
 
Last edited:
Its a pity that some people just can't help but hate on those different from them.
Ain't that the doggone truth! Different colors of skin, or ethnic origins, or economic status, whatever some stupid peckerwood chooses to hate on at the time. Those things don't matter; we all bleed red. We all (well, 99.9998% +/- of people) pretty much want the same things - a roof over our family's head, decent food in our bellies, clothing and shoes appropriate for the season, & honest work for an honest wage are just examples. We want to not be afraid of this or that government, or the local street punks. We want to love those who we love, regardless. We all want to feel safe in our daily lives. We all want to feel valued.

Stay Home, Stay Healthy! Wear your facemask! And wash, wash, wash those hands!!
 
What is the driving force right now in this latest crackdown on the Gay community?
Is it a corrupt police force wanting to shakedown gays for easy payoffs?
Is there a "Family Moral Organization" that are complaining that there are certain parks "Where decent families can't go to any more because they are where the 'Deviant' homosexuals go to cruise for casual pickups"?
Is this an attempt by certain politicians to reflect attention from more pressing issues?I
The answers to those and other questions will tell us a lot where all of this is coming from.
 
What is the driving force right now in this latest crackdown on the Gay community?
Is it a corrupt police force wanting to shakedown gays for easy payoffs?
Is there a "Family Moral Organization" that are complaining that there are certain parks "Where decent families can't go to any more because they are where the 'Deviant' homosexuals go to cruise for casual pickups"?
Is this an attempt by certain politicians to reflect attention from more pressing issues?I
The answers to those and other questions will tell us a lot where all of this is coming from.
Finding out what the motivation and driving force is will also have implications regarding the body count. Sadly, no decapitations allowed :(
 
Well it depended. People like Hugh Lane, Ivor Novello, Hugh Walpole or Harold Nicholson had influential family or friends while Somerset Maugham ( actually Maugham had both, his older brother was one of Britain's most distinguished lawyers) and Noel Coward had Intelligence Service connections. Basically the issue wasn't given priority unless something like cottaging or importuning got out of hand leading to public complaints though Burgess and Maclean's defection to the USSR did inspire a crackdown in the early 1950s. That gay men could be traitors or victims of blackmail being the main drivers.
That they were liable to be blackmailed was a direct result of being forced to hide their sexuality. You can't blackmail someone for being LGBTQA+ if they are out. In fact, Kat should use that approach with the military & intelligence services, using the US as an example; German intelligence would certainly remember how they turned Hoover. Point out how easily that tactic could be used against them by the Americans... or the Russians. Officially removing the stigma and ceasing to punish people for being true to themselves removes that particular tool from your enemies/rivals toolbox.

Potential future scene in a Berlin cafe:

American agent (throwing 'incriminating' photos onto a cafe table): "You will provide data on the performance of your latest SAMs or those go to your superiors. Your career will be over; your family disgraced."
Luftwaffe officer (glancing through pics; sighing): "It's not as if you've given me much choice, have you?"
American agent: "I'm glad that you understand the situation."

Sometime later...

Luftwaffe officer: "At first I couldn't believe someone could be so stupid as to think that would even work, but then I realised that it presented an opportunity to uncover an American spy ring here in the Fatherland. So I pretended to give in to his demands."
BII agent: "The Americans are still a little backward in these matters. If you lived there, you could be gaoled for years over your relationship, or worse. Still, you made the right choice, this does indeed provide us with a golden opportunity..."
 
The nobility started by being the best asskickers around. It took hundreds of years to temper that bellicoseness into something more manageable by the rest of the society.
The Dukes of Wellington, Cavendish and Northumberland were all killed in action in WWII, and as late as Afghanistan there were British royals serving in the armed forces.

Just wanna say the rich, lazy, fat nobility thing is... well, not the entire picture.
That gets a bit bigger in the USA where until today 90% of the population do not have a passport. And tests of geographical knowledge come up with... let me say less than ideal results.
They called their national baseball championship the World Series. That should tell you everything you need to know about how the average American see the world.

Kurt only ranks that highly with Manfred because he is Suse's father. If Manfred just gives it a little more thought, he'll realise that even Kurt is scared of his Aunt Katherine. Hell, the entire Heer is not-so-secretly in awe of Doug, the bravest man on the planet as far as they are concerned. And possibly the craziest.
You know what they say about sticking it in the crazy - the good (?) kind of crazy, but still.

Marc A
 

Monitor

Donor
The Dukes of Wellington, Cavendish and Northumberland were all killed in action in WWII, and as late as Afghanistan there were British royals serving in the armed forces.

Just wanna say the rich, lazy, fat nobility thing is... well, not the entire picture.
Military service is originally part of the deal for nobles. From something they needed to do to keep their titles, it transformed into something they could do. And mentioning examples is not particularly helpful, by the way, interesting would be the ratio to not impoverished nobles to common men (stupid concepts, but irrelevant for the post) in the army to the same ratio in the population. Because there are quite a few nobles...
 
Part 105, Chapter 1709
Chapter One Thousand Seven Hundred Nine



18th February 1966

Potsdam

Even by Kristina’s increasingly broad standards, she had a horrible week according to Doctor Holz when he had called Louis Ferdinand this afternoon. Apparently, there was a great deal to be concerned about. Kristina had spent the week hiding in the corners of lecture halls and labs, trying her hardest to make herself invisible. Then on Friday morning came the last straw.

A student group had approached Kristina.

According to Holz, it was entirely innocent. They saw Kristina’s seeming to reject the trappings of royalty as a form of progressivism on her part and had wanted to know if she would like to get involved. She had not seen it that way. Already in a fraught state, Kristina had seen them through the lens of her experiences with the self-styled Jacobins and it had resulted in an ugly incident. Fortunately, there had been none of the violence that she was certainly capable of but there had been a lot of shouting and Kristina had fled immediately afterwards. Not just the University but Jena as well. Vanishing completely.

Doctor Holz had called Louis to voice his concerns over what had happened and to tell him that his daughter was missing. It had taken hours to trace Kristina’s steps, from Jena to Potsdam by train, from there she had walked to the Summer Residence. The problem was that there simply was not a whole lot out there this time of year. A small staff of caretakers was the extent of it. So, exactly what she was doing out there was an open question. When they figured out which building Kristina had broken into, it had answered a lot of questions and Louis had realized that he was the only one who could speak to her about what had happened.

----------------------------------------------------------------

It was raining as Louis stood under his umbrella as the doors of the Antique Temple were opened. Originally built to house Friedrich the Great’s extensive collection of rare coins, jewelry and artifacts, this building had not served that purpose for long. The items in question had been moved to a vault in the Old Museum and the Antique Temple had eventually become a mausoleum after plans to convert it into the Court chapel had fallen through because of the start of the First World War.

Handing the umbrella off the one of his men and was handed a flashlight. Louis stepped into the building and he heard his footsteps echo off the walls. He was reminded as he did so of a line in a book he had read once about how there are moments when you realize that the story might not have a happy ending. It was not fatalism, but a call to action. Perhaps it was weakness on his part, but he was at a loss about what to do.

Kristina was sitting on the floor with her back against the marble casket that held her mother’s earthly remains. With the flashlight shown on her face her eyes were bloodshot and puffy, clearly, she had been crying. Louis could also see from how pale she was and dark rings under her eyes, that Kristina was cold and tired.

“There are better hours to visit Kristina” Louis said.

“She can’t stop me though” Kristina said, “Not this time.”

Louis sighed. After his late wife and daughter’s disagreements had escalated into exchanging blows with Kira slapping Kristina and getting decked in return, Kristina had been sent to Japan in what amounted to exile and the two of them had never spoken another word to each other. He had tried to talk sense to Kira in those last hours as her heart had failed her about how her refusal to see their oldest daughter was taking things too far. Now, years later, Kristina had come here when she had been in what was probably her lowest moment.

“I guess she can’t” Louis replied wearily, a touch appalled by the vindictiveness that he heard in Kristina’s voice. Of course, she had every right to be angry, but still. He sat down next to her and hugged her from the side. It was hardly a surprise that she was shivering in the cold.

“Do you know what it is like?” Kristina asked, “To hate what someone did to you, but still need them because they might understand?”

“Yes” Louis replied, “She never stopped being your mother.”

“No, she completely rejected me” Kiki said, “She told me that I needed to stop thinking like a little girl and except reality. That medicine was just a fantasy. I turned around and told her that she was useless, that she had only been good for having babies and she was past even that. That she wanted the same thing for me. That was when she slapped me.”

Louis didn’t bother to correct Kristina about what she had really said to Kira before she had gotten slapped. According to those who had witnessed the exchange what had been said was far more crude, vulgar and biting.

“What if she was right?” Kristina said, “After today, how am I supposed to go back to Jena?”

“Don’t think about that tonight” Louis said, “Come home, I’m sure that Antonia will be delighted to see you and perhaps you will have a better perspective tomorrow.”

“I don’t know” Kristina said, “Things never seem to get better, I just go from failure to failure.”

She started crying again.

It was something that Louis had seen Kristina do since she was a little girl. Sometimes she was just determined to make herself miserable, like self-flagellation or something.
 
Last edited:
Chapter One Thousand Seven Hundred Nine



18th February 1966

Potsdam

Even by Kristina’s increasingly broad standards, she had a horrible week according to Doctor Holz when he had called Louis Ferdinand this afternoon. Apparently, there was a great deal to be concerned about. Kristina had spent the week hiding in the corners of lecture halls and labs, trying her hardest to make herself invisible. Then on Friday morning came the last straw.

A student group had approached Kristina.

According to Holz, it was entirely innocent. They saw Kristina’s seeming to reject the trappings of royalty as a form of progressivism on her part and had wanted to know if she would like to get involved. She had not seen it that way. Already in a fraught state, Kristina had seen them through the lens of her experiences with the self-styled Jacobins and it had resulted in an ugly incident. Fortunately, there had been none of the violence that she was certainly capable of but there had been a lot of shouting and Kristina had fled immediately afterwards. Not just the University but Jena as well. Vanishing completely.

Doctor Holz had called Louis to voice his concerns over what had happened and to tell him that his daughter was missing. It had taken hours to trace Kristina’s steps, from Jena to Potsdam by train, from there she had walked to the Summer Residence. The problem was that there simply was not a whole lot out there this time of year. A small staff of caretakers was the extent of it. So, exactly what she was doing out there was an open question. When they figured out which building Kristina had broken into, it had answered a lot of questions and Louis had realized that he was the only one who could speak to her about what had happened.

----------------------------------------------------------------

It was raining as Louis stood under his umbrella as the doors of the Antique Temple were opened. Originally built to house Friedrich the Great’s extensive collection of rare coins, jewelry and artifacts, this building had not served that purpose for long. The items in question had been moved to a vault in the Old Museum and the Antique Temple had eventually become a mausoleum after plans to convert it into the Court chapel had fallen through because of the start of the First World War.

Handing the umbrella off the one of his men and was handed a flashlight. Louis stepped into the building and he heard his footsteps echo off the walls. He was reminded as he did so of a line in a book he had read once about how there are moments when you realize that the story might not have a happy ending. It was not fatalism, but a call to action. Perhaps it was weakness on his part, but he was at a loss about what to do.

Kristina was sitting on the floor with her back against the marble casket that held her mother’s earthly remains. With the flashlight shown on her face her eyes were bloodshot and puffy, clearly, she had been crying. Louis could also see from how pale she was and dark rings under her eyes, that Kristina was cold and tired.

“There are better hours to visit Kristina” Louis said.

“She can’t stop me though” Kristina said, “Not this time.”

Louis sighed. After his late wife and daughter’s disagreements had escalated into exchanging blows with Kira slapping Kristina and getting decked in return, Kristina had been sent to Japan in what amounted to exile and the two of them had never spoken another word to each other. He had tried to talk sense to Kira in those last hours as her heart had failed her about how her refusal to see their oldest daughter was taking things too far. Now, years later, Kristina had come here when she had been in what was probably her lowest moment.

“I guess she can’t” Louis replied wearily, a touch appalled by the vindictiveness that he heard in Kristina’s voice. Of course, she had every right to be angry, but still. He sat down next to her and hugged her from the side. It was hardly a surprise that she was shivering in the cold.

“Do you know what it is like?” Kristina asked, “To hate what someone did to you, but still need them because they might understand?”

“Yes” Louis replied, “She never stopped being your mother.”

“No, she completely rejected me” Kiki said, “She told me that I needed to stop thinking like a little girl and except reality. That medicine was just a fantasy. I turned around and told her that she was useless, that she had only been good for having babies and she was past even that. That she wanted the same thing for me. That was when she slapped me.”

Louis didn’t bother to correct Kristina about what she had really said to Kira before she had gotten slapped. According to those who had witnessed the exchange what had been said was far more crude, vulgar and biting.

“What if she was right?” Kristina said, “After today, how am I supposed to go back to Jena?”

“Don’t think about that tonight” Louis said, “Come home, I’m sure that Antonia will be delighted to see you and perhaps you will have a better perspective tomorrow.”

“I don’t know” Kristina said, “Things never seem to get better, I just go from failure to failure.”

She started crying again.

It was something that Louis had seen Kristina do since she was a little girl. Sometimes she was just determined to make herself miserable, like self-flagellation or something.
I don’t know what might help for sure, but I could see an Imperial order for Ben to get here fast and the Luftwaffe better be able to have the tanker support he needs to be in burner all the way. But that’s just me.
 
Honestly, if Louis Ferdinand has anything in his life that is making him miserable, now is a good time to share.

With people like Kiki, giving her someone else's problems to focus on will help her get over her own ones, at least in this particular depression spiral anyway.
 
Where to begin? He's the Emperor and he cares. He probably has a million things that could make him miserable.
Then that would be a good place to start.

Admitting openly to Kiki, and to himself, that Kira caused a lot of damage during her life, & not just to Kiki either, would help. Getting told by your mother that whatever dreams that you may have are pointless and that you are nothing more than a dynastic brood mare, so lie back, spread your legs & think of Germany certainly counts as damage.

I also think its long past time that Louis sat down with Kat and asked her, no holds barred, exactly WHY she had distanced herself from Kira. I'm sure that he has almost certainly put the pieces together, but hearing it said is an entirely different kettle of fish. Contacting Gia might be of use, as Kira screwed her over as well, and Gia is still paying the price for Kira's refusal to aid Asia. Getting both Kat & Gia to talk to Kiki about their own experiences with Kira's vindictiveness might help her. Hell, they might even reveal how much they admire her for decking Kira. He should also pull strings & get Ben there ASAP. I get the feeling that boyfriend cuddles might be appreciated about now.

That said, Kiki gets to decide when, if ever, she forgives her mother.
 
The roots of Kiki's PTSD was not in Korea but on the assassination attempt on her mother and Kira most likely was suffering from PTSD herself.
Kira from my interpretations became more controlling over the people around her, became even more dependent on Kat and was pressing Kat to train a new generation of The Sisterhood which would have pushed Kat in to breaking with the Empress.
What is really needed is for everybody to understand that Kira had PTSD and when Kiki accepts that fact she can finally forgive her mother as more importantly forgive herself and get an imperfect closure to that time in her life.
 
Top