An Age of Miracles Continues: The Empire of Rhomania

[Bronze]

The problem is that OTL Ottoman capitulations first were signed by Suleiman the Magnificent from the position of power. You only need an overconfident Emperor to have the same thing occur.


Greeks/Turkish/Armenians/Bulgarians/Kurdish/Serbians/Slavs/Arabs are distinct people with distinct religions/cultures/languages and with sufficiently significant population... so logically Roman Empire should become a hotbed of early nationalist/separatist movements. In addition, Rhome has lots of hostile neighbours and enemies due to its strategical geographical position.

But, I will wait and see and watch how things will play out for the Romans ITTL. Most likely it will end well for them in this specific TL.

I presume that you're talking about Suleiman's failed siege of Vienna. The reason he agreed to peace was that he had seen that he was unable to take Vienna with the resources that he had. So he retreated, to develop more resources for a future strike at Austria. Overextension was a thing. The problem was that Suleiman's successors were not as good as he was, so they were not able to see that a plunge into Austria would overextend the empire too far.

ITTL, that Suleiman era was Andreas the Victor. His successors (especially Alexeia and that sonofab----h advisor Fyodor) were unable to hold those conquests and had to fall back. Except the Sideroi are trying to fix it. The German war is just a big raid into Bavaria for revenge. And don't dare tell me that a Roman Empire without even Serbia is overextended. Furthermore, the Sideroi have created a safety net of allies to back Romania up, whereas OTL Ottomans were alone.

Now firstly, the Empire has very few Serbs and non-Bulgarian Slavs. Secondly, all of these people except the borderland Armenians, Kurds and Muslim Arabs are thoroughly integral parts of Roman society. This is not the OTL Ottoman Empire, where Turks ruled everything, a Muslim group was lording it over Christian groups and non-Turkish culture was not encouraged. Roman society is a curious mishmash of all of them. It is inclusive, not exclusive. (Unless you happen to be a Muslim Arab...)

 

[Evilprodigy]

All the discussions regarding Industrial Revolution here have missed the biggest elephant in the room: IOTL the heart of the Second Industrial Revolution was no longer in Europe. A liberal regime that controls the Great Lake and Northeastern seabed of OTL North America would lead the world.

This is emphatically untrue.

The second industrial revolution was a worldwide development. It was most prominent in the USA and Germany but also had significant impact in Britain, France, Belgium, and other industrial nations. In a different timeline the situations would be different, the second revolution is not tied to a level of geographic determinism as the first which required cheap coal to kick off the first industrial revolution. The second requires education and urbanization, which can come from the industrial revolution but does not require it.

 

[Thomas1195]

presume that you're talking about Suleiman's failed siege of Vienna. The reason he agreed to peace was that he had seen that he was unable to take Vienna with the resources that he had. So he retreated, to develop more resources for a future strike at Austria. Overextension was a thing. The problem was that Suleiman's successors were not as good as he was, so they were not able to see that a plunge into Austria would overextend the empire too far

Capitulation treaties are trade treaties. IOTL, the Ottoman Empire signed loads of such treaties with many European and Middle East kingdoms/countries, including France during its military dominant period.

 

[Bronze]

Ohk. I've done a little research now @Thomas1195, and I can tell you that there's no way in hell that Romania will ever offer such treaties. They tried with Venice and got burned. Even a defeated Romania would never agree to such a treaty. Their experience simply won't condone it.

 

[Frame]

Rome has waaaay less strain on it's resources than the ottomans. Plus more income due to their wealth due to spice allows them to have an extremly professional military that dosnt have its power watered down due to uprisings. Rhome ITTL isn't just the Ottomans but Orthidox this is an entirely different state faced with much more favorable circumstances than the Ottomans. I suggest you reread about the Sidoros reorganisation and compair that to what the Ottomans were operating this.
TLDR: Rhomania strong

 

[E_x_c_u_b_i_t_o_r_e]

If Spain is weakened, Triune should definitely seize the Strait of Gibralta, and then link up with the Ottoman Empire to conquer the TTL version of Suez Canal, and seize Malta as well. These moves should be able contain Rhome.

I don't think they will be able do to that easily. For one the pussy accord members wouldn't allow such a thing. Two this Spain is atleast moderately powerful enough to make the Triunes suffer alot. Three If they did send a fleet there and actually took and hold it. It'll paint a target on their back. Besides Rome wouldn't simply just stand aside there, no they'll attack their African and Asian teritories. By that time im sure a widespread conflict in the rhine and arletian lands will happen. And voila the triunes are under attack all across the globe. Dont expect them to pull an ass hat of a victory. Their enemies are more than enough to bring them to negotiation table easily.

 

[Frame]

"The pussy accord" LMAO

 

[E_x_c_u_b_i_t_o_r_e]

The great weaknesses of Rhome include:
- A coup tradition that is on par with OTL Latin America (this would affect everything including industrialization).
- A multi-cultural/religion/ethnic society on par with OTL Ottoman Empire/A-H Empire/Russian Empire (certainly worse than Triune).
- Probably slavery as a power institution, and there are likely lots of influential slave-owners and slave traders in Rhome.

The fate of Rhome as a great power is a coin toss. The possibility of becoming a meme state (I mean, OTL Ottoman Empire) is as high as becoming a great power. If another War of Five Emperors occurs in the mid-to late-19th century onwards then Rhomania is toasted. Such a war would combine dynastic power struggle with various nationalist/separatist/abolitionist/religious fundamentalist movements. And foreign powers would waste no chance to intervene.

You can even have a crazy Emperor decides to sign some capitulation treaties with the Latins and thus kickstarts a Roman economic decline (that happened with OTL Ottoman Empire).

Alot of Rome's weakness in culture has already been solved. The ToT finally set a precedence that would make them totally reorganise their strategy in holding and consolidating their lands. We've seen it during the reign of helena using those years of peace to promote roman/greco culture. More and more people are becoming romanized though they might not be ethnic greeks they identified themselves as roman. The roman state never really had a problem with multicultural state identities. What matters usually is that those people should uphold roman law, culture and religion.

Roman nationalism is already prevelant since the great latin war actually speeded up this trend. How exactly? Well conscription to be exact, as someone in this thread said that because of the need for manpower. They recruited alot from the provinces and this breaks down some of the cultural barrier. Rome's balkan bulgarian teritory has been sacked by the allies. This allows rome to fill the land with native "roman greek". Besides the Roman emperor in Constantinople is a unifying force that ties the Empire of the Romans.

 

[Frame]

I mean in all fairness @Thomas1195 isn't being entirely unreasonable. If we didn't have hints about the future of Rhome I think alot of us would be saying the same thing but as of now I think it's pretty obvious Rhome is going to have a much more stable future. The exception to this may be during their slump in the first industrial revolution but i highly doubt this will make them the sick man of Europe. At most I could see them get tossed around a bit and perhaps some conflict about future succession at worst before jumping back to being the preeminent power during the second Industrial Revolution. However I do agree that a power in the place of the OTL USA is bound to surpass Rhome eventually. This could be counter balanced by having a scenario in which the colonies are unable to unite though. But we'll just have to see

 

[E_x_c_u_b_i_t_o_r_e]

"The pussy accord" LMAO

Arent they pussies though? They balk at the thought of Rome getting Italy, yet they cant do shit or wont against their biggest and more threatening neighbour.

 

[Cryostorm]

Capitulation treaties are trade treaties. IOTL, the Ottoman Empire signed loads of such treaties with many European and Middle East kingdoms/countries, including France during its military dominant period.

Considering Rhomania's history they are more likely to try another three front war rather than sign any trade treaty that leaves them weaker or at the mercy of another nation. They didn't level and depopulate Venice because they liked the property and Rhomania has a long memory.

 

[Frame]

Arent they pussies though? They balk at the thought of Rome getting Italy, yet they cant do shit or wont against their biggest and more threatening neighbour.

You aren't wrong in the slightest i just found it to be a very funny and fitting name. Although if they are ever provoked into action it won't be a quick victory That's for sure. The Arlitan navy and Bernese army are no foes to gawk at

 

[E_x_c_u_b_i_t_o_r_e]

I mean in all fairness @Thomas1195 isn't being entirely unreasonable. If we didn't have hints about the future of Rhome I think alot of us would be saying the same thing but as of now I think it's pretty obvious Rhome is going to have a much more stable future. The exception to this may be during their slump in the first industrial revolution but i highly doubt this will make them the sick man of Europe. At most I could see them get tossed around a bit and perhaps some conflict about future succession at worst before jumping back to being the preeminent power during the second Industrial Revolution. However I do agree that a power in the place of the OTL USA is bound to surpass Rhome eventually. This could be counter balanced by having a scenario in which the colonies are unable to unite though. But we'll just have to see

I think it will be highely unlikely that their will be an Usa kind of nation in the americas. For one Mexico is in there, they won't allow the triune colonies to ever make a strong enough beachead to actually get pass central usa.

And wasn't the theme of this ttl to make sure that the world is more or less balance? Even if there was an usa kind of nation in the future, it wont have the territory in the west, cause im betting at some point someone will already be there.

Either way I want to see that future update.

 

[Frame]

I think it will be highely unlikely that their will be an Usa kind of nation in the americas. For one Mexico is in there, they won't allow the triune colonies to ever make a strong enough beachead to actually get pass central usa.

And wasn't the theme of this ttl to make sure that the world is more or less balance? Even if there was an usa kind of nation in the future, it wont have the territory in the west, cause im betting at some point someone will already be there.

Either way I want to see that future update.

You are correct but even if its just the east coast thats united (not saying it will for sure) it could become a power at the very least rivaling the production power of Rhome. However a divided north America would be far more interesting

 

[E_x_c_u_b_i_t_o_r_e]

You aren't wrong in the slightest i just found it to be a very funny and fitting name. Although if they are ever provoked into action it won't be a quick victory That's for sure. The Arlitan navy and Bernese army are no foes to gawk at

Yet the arletian's are s**k**g henries d*** and berbese league just got thrashed.

Roman Italy is the only answer to the perfidious barbarian latins.

 

[E_x_c_u_b_i_t_o_r_e]

Ohk. I've done a little research now @Thomas1195, and I can tell you that there's no way in hell that Romania will ever offer such treaties. They tried with Venice and got burned. Even a defeated Romania would never agree to such a treaty. Their experience simply won't condone it.

As a fellow Roman once said. DEATH TO THE LATIN INVADERS!!!

 

[Frame]

Sad to see the descendants of Leo Kommenos acting so subservient. Also as much as i want it. Complete Rhoman domination of Italy isn't too likely as the Author stated that the balance of power politics wouldn't allow Rhome to take all of the Lombards territory. I think the Po makes a good and defensible border IMO

 

[Cryostorm]

You are correct but even if its just the east coast thats united (not saying it will for sure) it could become a power at the very least rivaling the production power of Rhome. However a divided north America would be far more interesting

Aren't the Triune's colonies split English North and French South? That could cause issues. And if Arles can take the Southeast and EAN takes Northern Canada/Quebec then you have a much more broken down colonial landscape. Might even be enough to delay independence for a while and make royal decrees, like not settling past the Appalachians, more enforceable. Add in Mexican, and likely Rhoman, assistance to the inland natives along with Asian colonies on the west coast and we could see a much more balanced new world. Well, except for that mega Brazil to the south.

 

[Bronze]

Romania is ancient. Tis the only state in Europe to have seen Carthage, Alexander, Cleopatra, Christ, Charlemagne, Muhammad and Timur, and those stupid Latin historians can go to Coventry. The sheer weight of Romanness will overshadow all other identities. Greek, Turk, Armenian, Vlach, Bulgarian, Ruthenian, Tauro-Helvetian... all are Romans first and proud of it. There is a new national identity being forged, the Roman identity. An OTL example is the British identity, which was mostly but not completely English. The Roman national identity draws from the Greek, but also from the others, and from the legacy of the only true Empire.

 

[E_x_c_u_b_i_t_o_r_e]

You are correct but even if its just the east coast thats united (not saying it will for sure) it could become a power at the very least rivaling the production power of Rhome. However a divided north America would be far more interesting

That update will probably be for a long long time. Since were focusing on asia. But your right it'll be interesting especially with a more permanent russian alaska. Haha its gonna be funny if russian troops along with mexican troops storm their colonies.