An Age of Miracles Continues: The Empire of Rhomania
- Thread starter Basileus444
- Start date
It did survive in very limited amounts into about the time Genoa had colonized it but it was almost completely extinct. At most I can imagine a few words carrying over, depends on how different it was from Italian though
As implausible as it would have been I'd like to have seen a surviving Al-Andalus too, if only because I'm a total mark for non-unifed nations.
A fractured Germany, Italy, Spain, Japan, China? Sign me up! That's one of my favorite alt history tropes.
You may very well get your wish in germany! I can't imagine any Rhoman emperor being omay with a unified germany. We'll just have to see though
So considering how much control Rhome has over Egypt is it possible they could try to force the Coptic churches hand into being in communion with Orthidoxy? Perhaps it would piss off Ethiopia but i really can't see them minding considering how close they are to Rhome already. There might be some important theological differences im not aware of that make it impossible tho
Cryostorm
Monthly Donor
I think that Rhome isn't going to touch that issue with a ten-mile pole. Trying to force the hands of one of Noble Heresies could cause negative reactions from the others, like the Armenians, and other allowed minorities. Not to mention that is how they lost control the first time and the Rhoman government has shown to not mind minority religions to prosper so long as they abide by Constantinople's will, which is where the Arab Sunni managed to make themselves persona non grata.
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A united China that is even remotely competent is a powerhouse. Zeng China has more people than Rhomania, the Triple Monarchy, the HRE, and the Russian Principalities combined.
That will cause problems for them. But considering Chinese history ITTL, a nativist backlash was very realistic.
Only had Turkish coffee once, at a café next to Kos airport while waiting for the bus into town. Thought it was good, although I’m certain the glass of water that came with was for washing my teeth afterwards.
Zeng China might be able to send a small army to Central Asia; the Tang were overlords of the region after all. But we’re talking a few thousand men. The Chinese aid to the Ottomans would be economic rather than directly military.
Your last paragraph nailed. The Zeng want the silver they’re getting from trade in Pyrgos; they want nothing else.
The Chinese couldn’t single-handedly pay for the Ottoman war effort. The trade connections across the Silk Road provide a boost for Ibrahim. It’s not huge but every coin counts.
It’s a way for the Chinese to harass the Romans while not threatening Pyrgos and the flow of silver directly.
Thank you for the kind words.
My personal opinion of Demetrios II is that he certainly wasn’t good, but he wasn’t terrible either. Maybe a ‘meh’. Guy was definitely a bit of a religious prude and had some mental issues.
I agree on the Drakoi being duds (which wasn’t planned, at least to the extent they were). And they’ll definitely be overshadowed.
Now aiming for the regular update schedule. The hiatus was meant to be a one-time thing; there was a week there where I was too distracted/stressed to work on this, so something had to give.
Agree wholeheartedly with your first sentence. That said, I’d take him over Alexios III Angelos any day of the week.
They’re aware of the Nan since they have contact with the Nan emigres in Pyrgos. Since they’re Chinese who fail to recognize Zeng authority though, Luoyang doesn’t like them.
Put a pin in that thought.
The Zeng are trying to emulate the Tang, not the Sui, dangit!
Muslim vassal rulers lording it over Muslim subjects on the coast, with the tribes of the interior acknowledging no lord save God. Roman presence here is extremely light.
Wasn’t aware of that. Considering the lateness of the POD though I doubt there was much, if any, influence.
Al-Andalus died for the same reason Nan. I had no idea what to do with them, but had ideas for states replacing them. (This is an OOC reason for the Marinids lasting so long; I’d end up just replacing them with a new dynasty that fills the same niche, so why bother?)
Ethiopia would be pissed, really pissed. The Orthodox can get away with shoving around the Thomasine Christians, but there’s too many Copts. Trying to force the Coptic Church, which has been out of communion with the Orthodox for literally over a thousand years at this point, back into communion with the Orthodox (which really means become Orthodox), is a course of events that would have Ibrahim cackling in delight. It’d be the best way to blow up Rhomania’s eastern frontier.
The Zeng are trying to emulate the Tang, not the Sui, dangit!
The tradition of shitty Chinese “cosplays” has to come from somewhere...
“Hey minister!”
“Your Heavenry Majesty? Why you so angery? I don’t want no trabble.”
“I had our clothiers make a bunch of stuff for me so I could look like a T’ang Dynasty Emperor! This bullshit look-a-like-a Sui court garments! And now I hear the king of the Jyusin has married his son to the daughter of the king of Samhan? And now the Koreans have a foothold in Xuantu again? Are you deadass?”
“Well, maybe? I didn’t oversee that.”
“FUCK! We’re gonna get our army drowned by a man-made flash flood again, aren’t we? It’s always ‘you be physician’ or ‘you be yangban’ with those chumps until one Korean parent goes ‘you be landscaper or engineer’ and it all. Goes. To. Shit.”
“If it’s any consoration, your heavenship, we’re too far away from Pyrgos to hear how hard the Romans are raughing at us.”
“At least we still have that. And stop talking like that! Pronounce your ‘L’s correctly, this isn’t one of those raunchy and offensive theater productions they hold in the Southern Park.”
Thomas1195
Banned
All the discussions regarding Industrial Revolution here have missed the biggest elephant in the room: IOTL the heart of the Second Industrial Revolution was no longer in Europe. A liberal regime that controls the Great Lake and Northeastern seabed of OTL North America would lead the world.
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Thomas1195
Banned
The great weaknesses of Rhome include:
- A coup tradition that is on par with OTL Latin America (this would affect everything including industrialization).
- A multi-cultural/religion/ethnic society on par with OTL Ottoman Empire/A-H Empire/Russian Empire (certainly worse than Triune).
- Probably slavery as a power institution, and there are likely lots of influential slave-owners and slave traders in Rhome.
The fate of Rhome as a great power is a coin toss. The possibility of becoming a meme state (I mean, OTL Ottoman Empire) is as high as becoming a great power. If another War of Five Emperors occurs in the mid-to late-19th century onwards then Rhomania is toasted. Such a war would combine dynastic power struggle with various nationalist/separatist/abolitionist/religious fundamentalist movements. And foreign powers would waste no chance to intervene.
You can even have a crazy Emperor decides to sign some capitulation treaties with the Latins and thus kickstarts a Roman economic decline (that happened with OTL Ottoman Empire).
- A coup tradition that is on par with OTL Latin America (this would affect everything including industrialization).
- A multi-cultural/religion/ethnic society on par with OTL Ottoman Empire/A-H Empire/Russian Empire (certainly worse than Triune).
- Probably slavery as a power institution, and there are likely lots of influential slave-owners and slave traders in Rhome.
The fate of Rhome as a great power is a coin toss. The possibility of becoming a meme state (I mean, OTL Ottoman Empire) is as high as becoming a great power. If another War of Five Emperors occurs in the mid-to late-19th century onwards then Rhomania is toasted. Such a war would combine dynastic power struggle with various nationalist/separatist/abolitionist/religious fundamentalist movements. And foreign powers would waste no chance to intervene.
You can even have a crazy Emperor decides to sign some capitulation treaties with the Latins and thus kickstarts a Roman economic decline (that happened with OTL Ottoman Empire).
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Thomas1195
Banned
If Spain is weakened, Triune should definitely seize the Strait of Gibralta, and then link up with the Ottoman Empire to conquer the TTL version of Suez Canal, and seize Malta as well. These moves should be able contain Rhome.
1. They're trying to fix that ancient venerable tradition of coups. They might well succeed.
2. Yes, but unlike the Ottomans or the Russians or Austria-Hungary, Romania has one identity that goes beyond the Greek/Turkish/Armenian/Bulgarian/Kurdish etc. divide. They are Romans first.
3. No, because chattel slavery and serfdom (which is what I presume you mean) were never prevalent in Romania. I guess there are domestic slaves, but nothing else in most of the Empire. Cyprus and the Caribbean are the only regions of the Empire where slavery is an integral part of the economy. But as American sugar production increases more and more, Roman sugar magnates grow weaker and weaker. Moreover, there are few Roman slave traders. The Mediterranean slave trade is in the hands of the Ethiopians, because they buy directly from the source and ship the slaves to Alexandria, where Roman merchants take over. The Atlantic slave trade is entirely in the hands of the Portuguese, I guess, due to their extensive contacts with Atlantic Africa. There is no influential Roman slave trader lobby, at any rate.
4. Such a War of Five Emperors would not occur in the 19th century precisely because of nationalism - Roman nationalism.
5. No self-respecting Roman Emperor would ever sign an unequal treaty with the Latins or anyone really. If he does, it would be a race between the army and the mob to see which one lynches the Emperor first.
Thomas1195
Banned
The problem is that OTL Ottoman capitulations first were signed by Suleiman the Magnificent from the position of power. You only need an overconfident Emperor to have the same thing occur.
Greeks/Turkish/Armenians/Bulgarians/Kurdish/Serbians/Slavs/Arabs are distinct people with distinct religions/cultures/languages and with sufficiently significant population... so logically Roman Empire should become a hotbed of early nationalist/separatist movements. In addition, Rhome has lots of hostile neighbours and enemies due to its strategical geographical position.
But, I will wait and see and watch how things will play out for the Romans ITTL. Most likely it will end well for them in this specific TL.
Well the turks were almost completely assimilated and the bulgarians let's say after some ethnic cleansing an no longer a major thread..